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HCS Pro League Summer 2017 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion‏

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If someone prefers specific searches they would simply just check the box of a single playlist.

 

Bam! Specific search.

 

Secondly, this has nothing to do with game design. It's a UX issue.

 

I honestly think a mixed bag search would be pretty popular. And if it isn't, no harm is done because how mixed the bag is totally up to the player.

 

Personally, i think it would be best to have just let people choose between a small handful of official playlists (maybe just 1, Team Arena) or alternatively choose a mixed bag of gametypes they want to play. So if I'm feeling HCS-y I hop into team arena. If I want to play a mix CTF, Slayer, Strongholds, and SWAT, i check those boxes instead. If I the stars align I could potentially be thrown into matches with people who are playing HCS (so long as the gametype drawn and MMRs matchup). If I choose social MMR would be relaxed and it would open up more possible gametypes that aren't fit for a ranked environment.

 

Let the computer handle the logistics. The user just tells the computer what they are interested want in doing, the matchmaking system locates scenarios where interests and skill/playstyle overlap and shit happens.

 

PS: Doesn't RL do this kind of thing? Decent proof of concept if so.

I am not confident at all in 343 being able to pull this kind of thing off on a technical level. I just don't see why this necessary. Is backing out and selecting a different list really this big of a hassle to you?

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halo 3 had a population able to sustain 2 playlists, and I still would argue that the over did the ranked playlist in that game.

That's not even what im referring to. Your whole "the only people who want social are tryhards who want to stomp" is obviously ridiculous.

 

Are you implying that all 80k concurrent people playing social slayer were parties of 50s stomping lol?

 

Most people do not want to play with tight skill matching. The fact that even H5 "social" has tight skill matching is one of the biggest reasons H5 is a ghost town. The only option in H5 with actual social MM was warzone and warzone wasn't good enough to support the game's population on it's own.

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Didn't think you were old enough for blink 182 references lol

 

Maybe he is referencing Taylor Swift.

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You are trying to calculate math that can't be done. People in social can try to win one match then try to only melee people the next. Or try to stick as many people as possible another time. Then they try and win after that. It makes no sense to have a machine try and determine if you are a try hard social vs ranked vs regular social, game to game.

 

One thing is certain, if you choose ranked, they assume you are going to try hard. Easy math right there. You are trying to use a bad method to make up for the population being low in the game. Fix the population issue first then there is no problem.

No I'm not. The match absolutely CAN be done. It's just that You seem expect a degree of certainty that isn't achievable regardless of whether someone is playing ranked or social.

 

Someone can go into ranked right now, with a high MMR and choose to play melees only, or pepper their teammates with friendly fire, or have a genuinely bad game or play 10x better than they do on average. It's 100 percent impossible to predict how a person will play in an individual game, but there is no reason to. Because you can very easily look at a players trends.

 

The assumption that people will try hard when they select ranked doesn't go away, simply because you open up the possibility to play against social. The algorithm would match you against similarly ranked players and/or social players who have a recent trend of trying hard and competing well against similarly skilled players.

 

If a players performance is truly sporadic in social, then you reduce that players chances of entering the ranked pool accordingly.

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That's not even what im referring to. Your whole "the only people who want social are tryhards who want to stomp" is obviously ridiculous.

 

Are you implying that all 80k concurrent people playing social slayer were parties of 50s stomping lol?

 

Most people do not want to play with tight skill matching. The fact that even H5 "social" has tight skill matching is one of the biggest reasons H5 is a ghost town. The only option in H5 with actual social MM was warzone and warzone wasn't good enough to support the game's population on it's own.

Halo 5's social has tightly matched skill ranking - what game are you playing ?

Not even ranked has a tightly woven skill ranking 

 

The point I was trying to make - and included it in the edit is - social playlists are redundant - the game play is dictated by how you play it - if you want to take it seriously great - if you want to piss pot around great go play with other like minded players but that can all be accomplished in one playlist by a mmr ranking system. Otherwise you just get to a situation like overwatch has where there are tow IDENTICAL MODES but one which is fucking pointless and the other where the game is played as designed.

 

Developers should not have to split the communities up by replicating playlists but have one for social and one for ranked - just create one and let people decide which experience they want.

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There is none, people who want to play ranked and people who want to play social have no business matching against each other. Also, consider guests (talking about halo 6 now), social has been historically the only place you can split screen on xbl, thi would obviously go completely against that.

You can judge ranks for people depending on whether they are playing socially or in ranked and match accordingly.  

1) as Menke mentioned, the performance delta between when people play socially and when they play ranked is not nearly as large as people think it is.

2) If im a diamond in ranked, but a plat when i play social.  They system just has to match me accordingly.  its not that complicated in theory, (though im sure the execution is).

 

 

Maybe I'm making assumptions that I shouldn't, but I imagine the system would give you an ranked MMR that is seperate from your social one or at least make your effective social MMR much lower. So if you play a social like a tryhard, you'll get opponents who do the same or are ranked. If you play social relaxed, you'll get other relaxed social players and/or ranked players who won't cause you to sweat.

 

Just about Everything can be solved with good math.

 

yeah, i would also assume that if you are searching Social, as soon as the search loosens past the point that is used for playing Ranked you would not be allowed to entered a ranked match in that extended range.

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I am not confident at all in 343 being able to pull this kind of thing off on a technical level. I just don't see why this necessary. Is backing out and selecting a different list really this big of a hassle to you?

No. I'm a engineer. I live to do the hard work that makes things easier for others. So I can't help but think this way.

 

Is backing out a hassle to me, no. But neither were the server lobbies from MechAssualt on the OG Xbox. But Bungie came and pushed the enveloped and created what I believe is a better system in h2, but almost no improvements have been made since. I think the envelop should always be pushed.

 

The thing about it is there's nothing to lose, at least not with the "mixed bag" approach. If players want to a singular search they would just search that way.

 

I can understand skepticism around joining Social and Ranked because that would be a lot harder to get right. I actually thought it was madness when I first heard of the idea. But it's just math, and matchmaking is a science. If they can't get it right they could just turn it off.

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i dont understand why the season was set this way. instead of having 2 matches a week, why not have one a week and spread things out. a month of downtime seems excessive

 

N7iKSHz.png

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This is complete horseshit.

Has anyone here played overwatch.

The social playlist "quickplay" is the biggest cluster **** i have ever encountered. It is completely redundant, and just a place where people practice hereo's or where they go when they are banned. I have yet to find someone who enjoys overwatch and thinks quickplay is fun, because they know the game plays completely different there as it does in comp but has the EXACT SAME SETTINGS.

 

OW quickplay is a great place to practice the heroes you aren't comfortable with before taking to comp as well as just having fun with different heroes that you don't always fit in the metas that are popular in comp. Playing a Mei/Junk/Hanzo/Widow can be extremely fun and satisfying but they don't make sense a lot of the time in competitive depending on the map/enemy team's comp. A loss in QP while playing a fun character doesn't mean anything but it doesn't mean I didn't have fun.

 

That makes my competitive game more polished. Since every game counts, if you have a situation where a character makes more sense and you happened to have messed around in QP with them then QP did it's job. Also I'll queue with more people in QP because A) it's fun to play with friends, B) I'm not worried about it affecting my rank, C) The bigger your party is in Competitive, the more likely you will run into big teams of people who are more practiced as a group, which is why I only solo queue or duo. 

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This is complete horseshit.

Has anyone here played overwatch.

The social playlist "quickplay" is the biggest cluster **** i have ever encountered. It is completely redundant, and just a place where people practice hereo's or where they go when they are banned. I have yet to find someone who enjoys overwatch and thinks quickplay is fun, because they know the game plays completely different there as it does in comp but has the EXACT SAME SETTINGS.

 

People saying they need a playlist to "relax in" I would all but gaurantee you are those tryhards who just play in groups because they don't want to loose their precious rank, and then will sit here on this forum and complain about the wait times when the games population is abysmal and has duplicates of virtually every fucking available playlist.

 

Edit:

 

The games experience is dictated by how you play it, if you want to be ranked highly take it seriously, if you don't load up a custom game or derank, your choice though, the game developers should not accommodate you on this, especially when the game's population is as low as halo 5's is.

 

The fact that overwatch lets you choose characters makes this example totally irrelevant.  You CANNOT compare player trends from overwatch to Halo.  This example would only make sense if everybody always played as the same characters. but they dont.  so its  bad example.

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OW quickplay is a great place to practice the heroes you aren't comfortable with before taking to comp as well as just having fun with different heroes that you don't always fit in the metas that are popular in comp. Playing a Mei/Junk/Hanzo/Widow can be extremely fun and satisfying but they don't make sense a lot of the time in competitive depending on the map/enemy team's comp. A loss in QP while playing a fun character doesn't mean anything but it doesn't mean I didn't have fun.

 

That makes my competitive game more polished. Since every game counts, if you have a situation where a character makes more sense and you happened to have messed around in QP with them then QP did it's job. Also I'll queue with more people in QP because A) it's fun to play with friends, B) I'm not worried about it affecting my rank, C) The bigger your party is in Competitive, the more likely you will run into big teams of people who are more practiced as a group, which is why I only solo queue or duo. 

They offer that exact same experience in arcade 

What is the point of quickplay?

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They offer that exact same experience in arcade 

What is the point of quickplay?

You do not get a 6v6 in Arcade that you can change characters after/during a round.

Currently I believe it may be random generated characters or once one is used it can't be used again. It's not the same. 

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You do not get a 6v6 in Arcade that you can change characters after/during a round.

Currently I believe it may be random generated characters or once one is used it can't be used again. It's not the same. 

and that affects practice?

If the end goal is just to get good with a character mechanically what difference does it make.

 

We have gotten off tiopic,

All i am arguing is including a replicated playlist which accomplishes nothing but fragmenting the community is a bad idea

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and that affects practice?

 

We have gotten off tiopic,

All i am arguing is including a replicated playlist which accomplishes nothing but fragmenting the community is a bad idea

The heroes are literally a mystery. Aka, luck of the draw. And different each round. So in short, obviously. 

 

These playlists aren't really redundant, they serve a purpose. 

 

In OW you have Ranked, Quickplay, Arcade.

Ranked: Tryhards. Put your practice into action.

Quickplay: Chill, practice

Arcade: Fun game modes.

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The heroes are literally a mystery. Aka, luck of the draw. And different each round. So in short, obviously. 

thats one game mode within arcade

you and I both know there is more than that.

 

Edit:

Do you seriously not see the similarities between 2 and 3 

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thats one game mode within arcade

you and I both know there is more than that.

gjORNiR.jpg

 

The only other option outside the mystery one is the no limits. No one wants to practice against 6 of the same character like most players in that playlist do. Some people like that but most people who play QP do not like no limits. It breaks the game modes. 

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I get the reasoning behind combining ranked and social play lists but I still think it's a bad idea (but probably required for h5 cause no one is playing it anymore)

 

If I'm playing HCS I don't want people on my team who don't care if we win or lose

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If I'm playing HCS I don't want people on my team who don't care if we win or lose

That is exactly what you'd get. Regardless of what trends you follow. 

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I get the reasoning behind combining ranked and social play lists but I still think it's a bad idea (but probably required for h5 cause no one is playing it anymore)

 

If I'm playing HCS I don't want people on my team who don't care if we win or lose

Will be unlikely in the higher ranks, though

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Halo 5's social has tightly matched skill ranking - what game are you playing ?

Not even ranked has a tightly woven skill ranking 

 

The point I was trying to make - and included it in the edit is - social playlists are redundant - the game play is dictated by how you play it - if you want to take it seriously great - if you want to piss pot around great go play with other like minded players but that can all be accomplished in one playlist by a mmr ranking system. Otherwise you just get to a situation like overwatch has where there are tow IDENTICAL MODES but one which is fucking pointless and the other where the game is played as designed.

 

Developers should not have to split the communities up by replicating playlists but have one for social and one for ranked - just create one and let people decide which experience they want.

I haven't played H5 in several months but last I played social was simply ranked with the ranks hidden. Which is utterly pointless. ALL I played in social was onyx/champs with the occasional diamond thrown in. Which was literally the exact same pool of players i'd play in ranked.

 

Everything else you said is flat out ridiculous. if all there is is ranked you literally cannot do anything but try hard. Especially if sometimes you do want to play seriously.

 

What am I to do if I hop on one night a couple beers in me wanting to play with some gold level friends? Play ranked and lose every single game 50-10? Wow, is that ever fun. And then not only did I have 0 fun but i've also just messed up the ranking that I grinded for previously. Or we'd play a bunch of 50-49 games against plat/diamonds where i'd go really positive and my friends would all go negative 10. Wow, I bet they're coming back to that again!

 

In h3 we would have been able to hop in to social get owned some games, own others, play some tight games, etc. It offered varied experiences and was FUN.

 

H3 had separated ranked and social and it worked roughly 8.4 million times better then H5's no options, no fun structure. Maybe you don't like social or "quick play" but plenty of others do.

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I haven't played H5 in several months but last I played social was simply ranked with the ranks hidden. Which is utterly pointless. ALL I played in social was onyx/champs with the occasional diamond thrown in. Which was literally the exact same pool of players i'd play in ranked.

 

Everything else you said is flat out ridiculous. if all there is is ranked you literally cannot do anything but try hard. Especially if sometimes you do want to play seriously.

 

What am I to do if I hop on one night a couple beers in me wanting to play with some gold level friends? Play ranked and lose every single game 50-10? Wow, is that ever fun. And then not only did I have 0 fun but i've also just messed up the ranking that I grinded for previously.

 

In h3 we would have been able to hop in to social get owned some games, own others, play some tight games, etc. It offered varied experiences and was FUN.

 

H3 had separated ranked and social and it worked roughly 8.4 million times better then H5's no options, no fun structure. Maybe you don't like social or "quick play" but plenty of others do.

Not saying getting rid of ALL social playlists, they are essential - get rid of DUPLICATED playlists is all I am saying, where the only fucking difference is a rank, it just fragments the player base for no reason. It serves no purpose.

 

STOP using halo 3 as a comparison - halo 3 had a population capable of doing it - we do not have that anymore and have not for what 6 years now?

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I get the reasoning behind combining ranked and social play lists but I still think it's a bad idea (but probably required for h5 cause no one is playing it anymore)

 

If I'm playing HCS I don't want people on my team who don't care if we win or lose

That's the thing. The trending data would allow the system to know with a high level of confidence whether social players actually play to win.

 

Doing this right would only improve the matchmaking system.

 

Let's say it's halo6 is popular, but it's 3am on Wednesday, and the system finds 6 people in your town who are as good as you and they want to play ranked.

 

There are other people in your town at the time playing ranked, but they are nearly as good as the 6 of you. it could go outside of your city and find some folks, but there happen to be 2 players of your skill level who consistently tryhard in social, and are currently in the social que (purely because it offers more maps).

 

Why not let those two people into your game, and simultaneously benefit from having the best connection possible?

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No. I'm a engineer. I live to do the hard work that makes things easier for others. So I can't help but think this way.

 

Is backing out a hassle to me, no. But neither were the server lobbies from MechAssualt on the OG Xbox. But Bungie came and pushed the enveloped and created what I believe is a better system in h2, but almost no improvements have been made since. I think the envelop should always be pushed.

 

The thing about it is there's nothing to lose, at least not with the "mixed bag" approach. If players want to a singular search they would just search that way.

 

I can understand skepticism around joining Social and Ranked because that would be a lot harder to get right. I actually thought it was madness when I first heard of the idea. But it's just math, and matchmaking is a science. If they can't get it right they could just turn it off.

The problem is if they can't get it right who knows what cascading disaster it will create. 

 

I am firmly of the belief that when it comes to 343 they REALLY need to stop trying to try new things right now and just simplify things and try to get the core experience of Halo right first. Once they make a game with solid Halo gameplay and simple, functional MM then they can worry about innovating with the next game.

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Not saying getting rid of ALL social playlists, they are essential - get rid of DUPLICATED playlists is all I am saying, where the only fucking difference is a rank, it just fragments the player base for no reason. It serves no purpose.

 

STOP using halo 3 as a comparison - halo 3 had a population capable of doing it - we do not have that anymore and have not for what 6 years now?

Rank is not the only difference. Like the example he said, people who play ranked are SWEATING. They are trying hard to win. It's a mentality issue, not a MMR issue not a trend issue. People goof off in social at all ranks. What if you were matched with someone from social whose trend normally has them doing well but you catch them when they are drinking, distracted, goofing off. They 1k/20d. 

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