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HCS Pro League Summer 2017 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion‏

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I don't get why this is hard for you. They are two completely different topics. I agree that the core mechanics need to return to a more classic style, but that has literally nothing at all to do with the merits of shifting competitive play to PC, even if we pretend console aim assists are mechanics in any way essential to Halo. You're going out of your way to misrepresent and outright avoid the arguments I'm making.

 

 

You changed the subject and then argued against a position I never supported. I did not say halo would "return" if they just moved competitive to PC. I said it would be good for the competitive scene and for Halo as a competitive game. My opinion on the many issues with the core gameplay have nothing at all to do with that assertion. To be clear, again, I agree that a return to core Halo gameplay would be good for the series and would very likely be a more significant change overall. But I can believe that and also suggest that competitive Halo on PC would be better.

 

Even Halo 5, a game I strongly dislike, would be better as a PC game, assuming the (apparently not blatantly obvious) removal of console aim assist mechanics and a decent port.

 

Wrong. Not completely different topics. You're discussing how to improve comp Halo, I'm discussing how to improve comp halo. Same topic, different view. Is that still hard for you to get? 

 

Your only argument is that a mouse would lead to more precise aiming(Thank you Captain Obvious.) No one has argued that it wouldn't be more precise. It would be, it just wouldn't be Halo.

 

You're acting as if switching over to PC would be like Nascar turning right instead of left, it wouldn't be. It would be like Nascar using boats instead of cars.  

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Overwatch, Rocket League, League of Legends (+ Drafts)

 

 

This is the massive misconception. It isn't about trying to rope in new viewers or cater to casuals, that isn't the goal of unified gameplay.

Maybe rocket league.  I haven't played enough of that to to really know.

 

Overwatch and LoL are anything but universal.  not even close.

 

Overwatch has 24 hero's.  LoL has over 100.  Just because the hoppers are limited and objectives are the same (which isn't even universally true) doesn't mean that its a "universal experience" for the players.  In both of those games, the player has the power within a single playlist to dictate exactly how they want to play the game.  It is NOT dictated for them. They can choose any of the characters they want, as long as its not taken by someone else already (and again, that's not even true for every list) and play however they feel.  The ability for the player to create a unique experience for themselves is the core mechanic of the game.

 

Think of it this way:  If the only character in Overwatch was Soldier do you think there is any chance in hell that game could get away with having so few playlists?  No way.  That is essentially the place that halo is in.  Everybody is spawning as the same characters, so the creation of unique play experiences must be achieved in other ways.  The way to do that in Halo is to have a myriad of different playlists with different settings and starting parameters.  Instead of switching characters like you would in Overwatch or LoL when you want to switch up your experience, you switch playlists.

 

"Universality" as a successful ingredient in modern games is VASTY overstated.  Its not something that halo needs to do to be successful.

 

Note:  Weapon balance should be the same across hoppers. When the ARs, splinters, etc are reworked that change should be implemented across the board but that doesn't mean that any other distinct characteristics of gameplay should be.  ie. When ARs are fixed, they should still not be used as a spawn weapon in competitive, just put a couple on the map.

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Maybe rocket league.  I haven't played enough of that to to really know.

 

Overwatch and LoL are anything but universal.  not even close.

 

Overwatch has 24 hero's.  LoL has over 100.  Just because the hoppers are limited and objectives are the same (which isn't even universally true) doesn't mean that its a "universal experience" for the players.  In both of those games, the player has the power within a single playlist to dictate exactly how they want to play the game.  It is NOT dictated for them. They can choose any of the characters they want, as long as its not taken by someone else already (and again, that's not even true for every list) and play however they feel.  The ability for the player to create a unique experience for themselves is the core mechanic of the game.

 

Think of it this way:  If the only character in Overwatch was Soldier do you think there is any chance in hell that game could get away with having so few playlists?  No way.  That is essentially the place that halo is in.  Everybody is spawning as the same characters, so the creation of unique play experiences must be achieved in other ways.  The way to do that in Halo is to have a myriad of different playlists with different settings and starting parameters.  Instead of switching characters like you would in Overwatch or LoL when you want to switch up your experience, you switch playlists.

 

"Universality" as a successful ingredient in modern games is VASTY overstated.  Its not something that halo needs to do to be successful.

 

Note:  Weapon balance should be the same across hoppers. When the ARs, splinters, etc are reworked that change should be implemented across the board but that doesn't mean that any other distinct characteristics of gameplay should be.  ie. When ARs are fixed, they should still not be used as a spawn weapon in competitive, just put a couple on the map.

 

Read my response to Teapot a few posts back. Universal is a terrible term to use, leads to confusion.

 

This has nothing to do with internal gameplay mechanisms, whether it be items on a Halo map or multiple heroes in Overwath. Internal game universality isn't even in the realm of what I'm discussing. I understand what you are pointing to but that is not the conversation I'm having.

 

Tag me in the Halo 5 thread if you want to talk more about this. I don't want to clutter.

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I'm bored. Let's put out power rankings to cause drama. :kappa:

 

 

We need roster mania its significantly late this season  :mj:

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I'm bored. Let's put out power rankings to cause drama. :kappa:

1. Emma Watson

2. Anna Kendrick

3. Emma stone

4. Mila Kunis

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Wrong. Not completely different topics. You're discussing how to improve comp Halo, I'm discussing how to improve comp halo. Same topic, different view. Is that still hard for you to get?

 

No. You don't get to redefine the topic at your convenience. I'm discussing the merits of PC for comp Halo. The topic was Halo on PC, and I responded to the suggestion that Xbox controllers should be forced into competitive play. You countered with, at best, a fallacy of relative privation and now that I've called you out on it, you're trying to tell ME what I was talking about? Uh. Excuse me? You decided to change the topic so you could bring up a "bigger problem" and completely avoid addressing the actual topic of discussion (comp Halo on PC) and now you're basically trying to gaslight me, like I don't know what I was talking about? You have problems.

 

You're acting as if switching over to PC would be like Nascar turning right instead of left, it wouldn't be. It would be like Nascar using boats instead of cars.

 

Again with the ridiculous comparisons. I guess moving the goalposts is just essential to arguing that aim assist is a core element of a competitive FPS. No. It would not be like that. That's ludicrous. The GAME is the same. The CONTROLS are different (more precise) and the game doesn't have to aim for you anymore.

 

If we're going with the NASCAR metaphor, it would be like NASCAR going from self-correcting cars to actually giving the drivers full control. It would be like going from Forza with all of the noob assists on with a controller, to the full experience with a racing wheel and pedals. The notion that it magically becomes a totally different game as if you're controlling a completely different character/vehicle is just inane.

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1. Emma Watson

2. Anna Kendrick

3. Emma stone

4. Mila Kunis

1. Red Robin

2. 5 Guys

3. Steak n Shake

4. ?????

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Universal settings =/= universal gameplay

 

That's a bad comparison. A better comparison would be to say that Reinhardt behaves exactly in Quick Play as he does in Competitive, and in Arcade modes as well.

 

 

I'm not trying to really make some sort of comparison and not really saying universal settings = universal gameplay.

 

Reinhardt behaves the same in quick play, as he does competitive and in arcade. Master Chief behaves the same in Arena as he does BTB or Skirmish. My only point is that one of the games that has relatively universal settings also has a large selection of characters that behave very differently from each other. Basically just mentioning how much in game variety OW can have despite the settings being relatively unchanged.

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Again with the ridiculous comparisons. I guess moving the goalposts is just essential to arguing that aim assist is a core element of a competitive FPS. No. It would not be like that. That's ludicrous. The GAME is the same. The CONTROLS are different (more precise) and the game doesn't have to aim for you anymore.

It is the same game, yes.

 

However, the point that you're missing is that the way a game plays is highly dependent on how you control it. The same game will play quite differently with a mouse compared to with an analogue stick.

 

No. You don't get to redefine the topic at your convenience. I'm discussing the merits of PC for comp Halo. The topic was Halo on PC, and I responded to the suggestion that Xbox controllers should be forced into competitive play. You countered with, at best, a fallacy of relative privation and now that I've called you out on it, you're trying to tell ME what I was talking about? Uh. Excuse me? You decided to change the topic so you could bring up a "bigger problem" and completely avoid addressing the actual topic of discussion (comp Halo on PC) and now you're basically trying to gaslight me, like I don't know what I was talking about? You have problems.

Also chill dude.

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1. Red Robin

2. 5 Guys

3. Steak n Shake

4. ?????

1, Yorkshire tea

2, PG tips

3, Twinings

4, Does it really matter after this?

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It is the same game, yes.

 

However, the point that you're missing is that the way a game plays is highly dependent on how you control it. The same game will play quite differently with a mouse compared to with an analogue stick.

 

 

I'm not missing anything. I've played plenty of console and PC FPS games. "It will play differently" is vague at best and doesn't constitute any kind of meaningful argument. It's a statement of obvious and useless fact. Until someone provides a specific negative aspect of precise control, the ability to actually turn around, and the game not aiming for you, I will stand by my position that it will play BETTER. But by all means put that competitive TF2 experience to work with flawed assessments of the aiming difficulty in other PC shooters.

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I'm not missing anything. I've played plenty of console and PC FPS games. "It will play differently" is vague at best and doesn't constitute any kind of meaningful argument. It's a statement of obvious and useless fact. Until someone provides a specific negative aspect of precise control, the ability to actually turn around, and the game not aiming for you, I will stand by my position that it will play BETTER. But by all means put that competitive TF2 experience to work with flawed assessments of the aiming difficulty in other PC shooters.

How about you actually respond to what I wrote the other night instead of completely misinterpreting it?

 

Also perhaps you could explain why my assessments are flawed? Because you've yet to make any arguments really other than "Nuh uh!".

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Those are essentially different gametypes though.

 

That's exactly the point. Same goal, different settings.

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1. Red Robin

2. 5 Guys

3. Steak n Shake

4. ?????

1. Brisk Mate

2. Redbull

3. Monster

4. Rockstar

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Those are essentially different gametypes though.

 

Twisted Treeline and Summoner's Rift are both "Destroy the Base" gametypes with different numbers of people...so similar to 4v4 vs BTB.

 

However Twisted Treeline still gets different sets of items and sometimes different item balance because universal balance didn't work.

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Twisted Treeline and Howling Abyss.

 

 

Niche experiences that are clearly not presented as the game's core image.

 

I guess the most formulaic way to explain my perspective is this:

 

"a game's esports identity must = the game's core identity"

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Niche experiences that are clearly not presented as the game's core image.

 

I guess the most formulaic way to explain my perspective is this:

 

"a game's esports identity must = the game's core identity"

OK, what does identity mean in this context? Are we talking about having 'abilities radar' in all playlists as an example? I think weapons can vary between playlists without it really changing the universal settings idea but radar/no radar is a bigger change for halo specifically.

 

This is akin to a sprint/no sprint difference as ut completely changes how a match plays.

 

Obviously so can weapons but pistol/AR v just pistol is less of a change as it still features a standard starting weapon.

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Niche experiences that are clearly not presented as the game's core image.

 

I guess the most formulaic way to explain my perspective is this:

 

"a game's esports identity must = the game's core identity"

Why?
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