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CyReN

HCS Pro League Summer 2017 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion‏

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Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but I don't feel like a precision weapon firing in a tight spread one moment and a wild spread the next adds to the competitive element of the game. If we're both standing still and firing four bursts at each other's head at the exact same time, one of us should not die while the other lives... in my opinion.

 

That isn't really an opinion. If you like it, that is your opinion, but the fact that adds randomness and is about "luck" more than "skill," is not an opinion. So if he means "makes the game good" as in "makes the game more competitive/skillful" he is simply wrong. 

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This is a huge issue with competitive pokemon as well. Game Freak actually reduced critical hit damage because of pros complaining about RNG winning/losing matches for them.

 

Pokémon Crit is an example of RNG that can't be reacted to. (AKA Bad RNG)

 

A better system would be to replace the crit with a status effect, "off-balance" where you know the NEXT hit will deal 2x damage and ignore defense buffs.

 

That gives the player who's being crit more options -- you can swap out, trying to predict your opponent's move/element and switch to something strong against/immune to that damage type for a set-up (which he may try to predict and swap as well, leading to Yomi Layer 3)...you can try to weather the hit if you think you can... or you can use moves that make you unable to be hit for a turn (like Protect/Detect/etc.) -- and keeps an RNG crit from just completely ending your wall or sweep based off luck...while still allowing the RNG factor to add an unsolvable chaotic element to the game to keep it from playing out the same each time.

 

 

An example of not bad RNG: StarCraft starting spawns.  They're randomized and can affect your strategy as a whole the map...but you're given the information and resources to react to it before its affect actually impacts the game.

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Just going to leave this right here.

 

This could become the new "No bloom=No skill"  :ace:

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Pokémon Crit is an example of RNG that can't be reacted to. (AKA Bad RNG)

 

A better system would be to replace the crit with a status effect, "off-balance" where you know the NEXT hit will deal 2x damage and ignore defense buffs.

 

That gives the player who's being crit more options -- you can swap out, trying to predict your opponent's move/element and switch to something strong against/immune to that damage type for a set-up (which he may try to predict and swap as well, leading to Yomi Layer 3)...you can try to weather the hit if you think you can... or you can use moves that make you unable to be hit for a turn (like Protect/Detect/etc.) -- and keeps an RNG crit from just completely ending your wall or sweep based off luck...while still allowing the RNG factor to add an unsolvable chaotic element to the game to keep it from playing out the same each time.

 

 

An example of not bad RNG: StarCraft starting spawns.  They're randomized and can affect your strategy as a whole the map...but you're given the information and resources to react to it before its affect actually impacts the game.

Tbh that just makes the RNG not as bad; it doesn't solve the problem of randomness changing the outcome of the match. Randomized status effects in pokemon still hurt the skill gap.

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Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but I don't feel like a precision weapon firing in a tight spread one moment and a wild spread the next adds to the competitive element of the game. If we're both standing still and firing four bursts at each other's head at the exact same time, one of us should not die while the other lives... in my opinion.

 

 

That isn't really an opinion. If you like it, that is your opinion, but the fact that adds randomness and is about "luck" more than "skill," is not an opinion. So if he means "makes the game good" as in "makes the game more competitive/skillful" he is simply wrong. 

 

Honestly just put "opinion" in there a few time so @TiberiusAudley didn't jump down my throat again :kappa:

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Tbh that just makes the RNG not as bad; it doesn't solve the problem of randomness changing the outcome of the match. Randomized status effects in pokemon still hurt the skill gap.

 

When they create additional moments of Yomi, they stretch the skill gap.

 

The majority of the Pokémon skill gap is on prediction.  If you create additional moments where prediction is important (such as a moment where you know the next turn will deal double damage) then you're adding more moments for outplay.

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That dude has a brain and uses it.  I like it.

 

Stop

 

The DMR bloom was 1000x worse. The range it could bloom out was so much wider and people would abuse it by just spamming at full ROF.

 

Seriously. The H3 BR spread could be frustrating at times and was exacerbated by the  The Only argument I could see for bloom would be on a single shot, single kill charge weapon like the railgun. but even then i would rather see it be something where the bloom starts to come into play as punishment at the end of the charge.  For example, the railgun would be 100% accurate until you charge it too long so bloom starts to occur then it discharges automatically.

 

Ok, totally straying off my original point here but this just came into my head.  What if the railgun functioned as so:

 

-No firing delay. You could shoot it immediately but at the expense of projectile speed and power (it would need to convert back to a projectile weapon).  This would mean that you can't "pre charge" like you can now.  You better be sure that you want to fire, no fartin' around.

-Firing immediately would do maybe 1/3rd damage on a hit and be half speed.

-firing after .75 second charge would be minimum for an instant-kill

-at 1 second it would reach maximum damage potential and speed with a little bit of added splash damage.  After 1 second damage begins to decrease.

-After 1.25 seconds bloom starts to occur, reducing your accuracy for waiting too long.  At this stage its impossible for the gun to be accurate and damage output can't insta-kill. projectile speed begins to slow again.

-after 2 seconds it automatically discharges, way off target with its damage reduced to 1/3rd again, should it happen to hit somebody.

- OR alternatively after 2 seconds the weapon overheats and refuses for fire until after a short cooldown.  This could prevent the possibility of any "oops" RNG kills though when i say that the accuracy is reduced, i mean REALLY reduced. like 30 degrees off target.

 

This would basically put the damage output and projectile speed as a bell curve relative to charge length with 1 second being the middle of the curve.

 

For those that need some sort of technical explanation as to why the damage output from 1 seconds on would be start to reduce, its because the charge is overheating the barrel making the projectile more brittle and squeezing it making it slower when fired,  and losing a lot of that energy as heat.

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CSGO is the most popular FPS and it has bloom. Checkmate.

 

No it doesn't.  CS:GO has a unique spray patter for each weapon, but the spray pattern is predictable and you can learn to compensate.  its NOT random.

 

Bloom is just straight up rando garbage.

 

I watched most of the tourney, amazing overall ... still confused by people saying MCC H3 is broken.  The only thing that seemed broken to me was joining parties (at times) and then there were some bloodshots / lag, but I had those in OG H3.  I can't think of any other "broken game" that can host a 14-hour tournament with zero serious issues.  (Though H3 on LAN is obviously way better.)  

 

Hit registration is still worse, but OG was pretty bad.  I tried to play with some TB fam the other day and getting a custom lobby together was  PITA.  had to quit the game a couple times and once we got it together we didn't dare change party leader or host otherwise it just straight up breaks.

 

Tbh that just makes the RNG not as bad; it doesn't solve the problem of randomness changing the outcome of the match. Randomized status effects in pokemon still hurt the skill gap.

When they create additional moments of Yomi, they stretch the skill gap.

 

The majority of the Pokémon skill gap is on prediction.  If you create additional moments where prediction is important (such as a moment where you know the next turn will deal double damage) then you're adding more moments for outplay.

 

wtf are we arguing about competitive pokemon and starcraft like its directly transferable to a FPS?

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When they create additional moments of Yomi, they stretch the skill gap.

 

The majority of the Pokémon skill gap is on prediction.  If you create additional moments where prediction is important (such as a moment where you know the next turn will deal double damage) then you're adding more moments for outplay.

Using scald and hoping for the 33% burn chance to win you the match is not skill; having a speed tie when both mons are within range of KO is not skill; air slashing for the flinch chance when you have no other option is not skill. Have you ever played competitive pokemon?

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No it doesn't.  CS:GO has a unique spray patter for each weapon, but the spray pattern is predictable and you can learn to compensate.  its NOT random.

 

Bloom is just straight up rando garbage.

 

 

Hit registration is still worse, but OG was pretty bad.  I tried to play with some TB fam the other day and getting a custom lobby together was  PITA.  had to quit the game a couple times and once we got it together we didn't dare change party leader or host otherwise it just straight up breaks.

 

 

wtf are we arguing about competitive pokemon and starcraft like its directly transferable to a FPS?

Why are you pretending as though RNG isn't a huge, controversial aspect of competitive eSports everywhere?

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:intensifies: Josh Menke :intensifies:

 

edit: Halo scientists, How do you keep the AR with similar damage, but make it a more skill based weapon???

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After watching the entire Halo 3 tournament until the end last night, I had a thought. 

 

I realized how long and complicated objective games were. I could be completely wrong on this, but the diversity of gametypes (CTF, Oddball, and KOTH) plus the length of games and complexity really made an objective game differentiate from a slayer game. An issue with H5 is that objective gametypes (IMO) feel like a slayer with an objective and slayers end up as stand offs due to the game being so fast teams try to slow it down. 

 

In H3, objective gametypes were more like a chess match rather than just trying to outslay your opponents. This allowed certain players who might not have been the best slayers but smart players to stand out.

 

I'm not saying H5 doesn't have this at all, but it is extremely limited compared to H3. 

I think the weapons have a lot to do with it as well. I know I've already gotten 100 notifications about the Ace BR tweet but it does play a big roll. In halo 3 you could spot a player across the map, but you could only call him out or maybe spray and get one or two bullets on him. In halo 5 if you see a player across map it is easy to put a few shots in him with the pistol and he can be an easy kill if you have a BR or Carbine. Because of this map movement becomes the entire game. Gun skill is great but if you aren't communicating and working as a team of four to get across map and put team shots into players/ block spawns/ and protect the person with the objective, you will end up losing the game. 

 

Also, fellow TB members, don't take this as me trying to argue for weaker weapons in H5. Just pointing out the difference.

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So have they updated the new proving grounds settings yet and is there a summary of what was changed on each map?

Not yet. "Early this week" is I believe as close as we know.

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Can anyone explain 343's intention for adding headshot multiplier to SMG/AR when they have bloom/spread/magnetism? Factor in their kill times and the game balance doesn't make sense. They had to have been designed around campaign like splinters/storm rifle. More than a year and two million dollar tournaments to adjust items that can be seen as broken within a 12 minute match of slayer. I hope we can put these items behind H5 competitive for good. 

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Using scald and hoping for the 33% burn chance to win you the match is not skill; having a speed tie when both mons are within range of KO is not skill; air slashing for the flinch chance when you have no other option is not skill. Have you ever played competitive pokemon?

 

And none of those are in any way related to what I was referring to with the altered crit mechanic.

 

All of those 3 examples you gave are examples of completely bad RNG...since they take effect immediately and have no way to know when they're going to happen, and no way to react after they've occurred to mitigate their effect.

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After watching the entire Halo 3 tournament until the end last night, I had a thought.

 

I realized how long and complicated objective games were. I could be completely wrong on this, but the diversity of gametypes (CTF, Oddball, and KOTH) plus the length of games and complexity really made an objective game differentiate from a slayer game. An issue with H5 is that objective gametypes (IMO) feel like a slayer with an objective and slayers end up as stand offs due to the game being so fast teams try to slow it down.

 

In H3, objective gametypes were more like a chess match rather than just trying to outslay your opponents. This allowed certain players who might not have been the best slayers but smart players to stand out.

 

I'm not saying H5 doesn't have this at all, but it is extremely limited compared to H3.

Objective in Halo 3 (and probably Halo 2 but I wasn't around for it, only admired it recently for its true beauty) was really about the idea of playing for it. I feel in Halo 5 some CTF games can be over in 2 minutes and its really common, whereas say CTF Onslaught or Oddball Guardian, time limit becomes a factor needing to be considered by teams.

 

I feel with Halo 5, Oddball and King of the Hill would be great adds to the game, if they can implement it well with the maps (possibly Eden KotH, Regret or Truth Oddball)

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"The data do show that starting around the Diamond level, the effectiveness of the AR does not increase with skill. Correcting for skill shows that top players aren’t any more effective with the AR than a Diamond level player. Another way to say this is that the winner in a gunfight between two ARs above Diamond level is currently more about random luck than it is about skill. I think, for competitive play, we want the player with greater skill to win a given gunfight, without luck being too much of a factor. This is one of the primary data-driven reasons we are concerned about using the AR in competitive play."

 

Thank goodness for Josh Menke.

Wonder if the past months "matchmaking issues" (where diamonds faced champs, golds vs diamonds etc...) was them testing stuff like this.

 

Obviously would have been nice to know, but I'd take getting my ass beat for solid numbers and appropriate playlist changes as a result.

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