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HCS Pro League Summer 2017 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion‏

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The fact is they need to have a money prize at every placing because the game is close to dead, they're worried about not even having enough teams to run tournaments.

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It's pretty clear at this point from their comments that a number of pros have no desire or intentions to grow a healthy competitive scene, and instead only wish to milk as much as they can from the MS cash cow before management calls time on the whole venture. Which I can understand, to a degree, but if that's the case then just come out and say it and be honest with the community: You don't care about Halo, you don't want to develop a thriving competitive scene, you don't care about any other aspect of all this except for the money. Just have the balls to be honest and say it, please.

 

Nobody is proposing we give AMs a minimum wage for competing, so stop acting like this is such a Marxist redistribution of wealth. Instead, look at it within the context of this particular event, where the loss of an EU final has meant that the bottom end has needed a little more to sustain the scene until Gfinity gets going with their reboot. If you want your extra $200 so badly, maybe you should have made more of a fuss when your friends from across the pond were getting screwed.

 

I think it's ridiculous to say that the people who live off Halo $$ dont care about the health of the scene, and I completely disgaree with most of them on this issue. 

 

Halo isn't in a great state, everyone knows that, HOWEVER, the competition is decent. There looks to be top 'AM' teams forming that could (and I think will) cause some upsets in the scene going forward. I think 343/ESL recognises this and whats to 'incentivise' these teams, and more like them to form. 

 

If 343/ESL actually set up a decent yearly structure with numerous open events and more avenues for AM to compete against pro teams, and introducing things like Pro Points, then there'd be 0 reason to need to reward them with break even pay outs, that reduce the pool from the top x teams. 

 

With structural incentives that reward good teams and allow them to break into the pro structure, we might see an even healthier scene. AM Teams may be more likely to be picked up by Orgs who will stick around, and with that they could get salaries that allows them to practice more, break into the Pro ranks and then earn more through their placements. 

 

For me, simply throwing money at events/teams/players isnt going to solve much, and seems lazy.. There's more money in Halo than ever before but that is not having any impact on the health of the scene. 

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There's more money in Halo than ever before but that is not having any impact on the health of the scene.

Certainly not when the same 25-30 people are the only beneficiaries of Microsoft's generosity.

 

Like this is such a non-issue, really. It's a couple hundred dollars not going to people who have already won thousands and instead going to people who have won fuck all trying to make it in a system that almost seems to work against them progressing from AM to Pro. A couple times now we've seen AM teams make it into the Champ bracket, and beat Pro teams to do so. There are AMs right now who are good enough to be called Pro. And yet because of the league structure they still have to play AMs for the regular season, and they aren't given the same financial opportunities as those in PL.

 

Obviously these league problems aren't the fault of Pro players but if ESL deciding to throw AMs a bone this one time is really such a monumental problem I think that their love of the competitive Halo scene does deserve to be called into question.

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What if a pro team doesn't make it into the top 8... I wonder if their tune would change. Lol

 

Seems extremely petty for teams that are favored to place top 8 to whine about a couple hundred bucks going to 9-16. It's essentially covering the cost of their team passes.

 

My thing is, the whole pro distinction is fucked up to begin with. These team makeups are heavily influenced by ESLs weird roster rules and nonsensical tournament structures. If we had a league designed to exclusively to reward performance at open tourneys (pro points) then several current top ams would probably be on top8 teams by now and several pros would have descended. I see no reason NOT to throw top AMs a bone, with that in mind.

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Didnt think I would see pros complaining about the lower teams getting some money essentially covering their costs to get to the event. meh

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What if a pro team doesn't make it into the top 8... I wonder if their tune would change. Lol

 

Seems extremely petty for teams that are favored to place top 8 to whine about a couple hundred bucks going to 9-16. It's essentially covering the cost of their team passes.

 

My thing is, the whole pro distinction is fucked up to begin with. These team makeups are heavily influenced by ESLs weird roster rules and nonsensical tournament structures. If we had a league designed to exclusively to reward performance at open tourneys (pro points) then several current top ams would probably be on top8 teams by now and several pros would have descended. I see no reason NOT to throw top AMs a bone, with that in mind.

It shines through when teams will absolutely under no circumstances give up their Pro League spot because of how much it fences you into the money.

 

'People aren't making a living off the game at the pro level' yet with this events prize pool Halo5 moves into the top10 all time esports earnings, with the fewest tournaments shared among the smallest amount of players.

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A few points after reading this shit storm.

 

The CoD arguements is laughable, CoD brings teams to opens, it doesn't need to offer top 16 payout. That's with arguably the worst CoD game ever.

 

MLG had a tried and tested am formula, I wonder where h5 would be now if we had MLG from start.

 

Halo isn't a growing e-sport it's in decline and everytime I hear someone say we're growing I'm actually dumbfounded by there stupidity, the viewing figures speak for themselves (not the fake Twitter figures).

 

Halo has a magnitude of problems, Xbox One being a failure in terms of sales, Last 3 Halo games pushing most of the fan base away from the franchise for probably forever, ESL and 343 don't learn from mistakes, pro Halo players being absolute cancer doesn't help either.

 

The truth is we will probably spend more time mocking the shitty production and commentary this upcoming LAN than the actual teams involved that's where Halo is right now.

 

200k for this game is baffling.

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A few points after reading this shit storm.

 

The CoD arguements is laughable, CoD brings teams to opens, it doesn't need to offer top 16 payout. That's with arguably the worst CoD game ever.

 

MLG had a tried and tested am formula, I wonder where h5 would be now if we had MLG from start.

 

Halo isn't a growing e-sport it's in decline and everytime I hear someone say we're growing I'm actually dumbfounded by there stupidity, the viewing figures speak for themselves (not the fake Twitter figures).

 

Halo has a magnitude of problems, Xbox One being a failure in terms of sales, Last 3 Halo games pushing most of the fan base away from the franchise for probably forever, ESL and 343 don't learn from mistakes, pro Halo players being absolute cancer doesn't help either.

 

The truth is we will probably spend more time mocking the shitty production and commentary this upcoming LAN than the actual teams involved that's where Halo is right now.

 

200k for this game is baffling.

I'm dumbfounded by "there" stupidity too.
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There/the stupidity, it doesn't matter, Halo5 is dead you ain't gotta be a genius to see that. Moses regularly posts viewing figures, we're in decline (which is obvious 3 years into a title which only stands based on having Halo in the title)

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To be honest, it seems like nearly half of the people who posted in the first worlds thread have either stopped posting or still post to stay caught up with the scene, but never watch the game anymore. I'm one of them to be honest. Just doesn't get me excited anymore. It's obvious the game is dying. When the most loyal fans of the Halo competitive scene admittedly no longer get excited to watch open tournaments, or even the 2nd worlds, how big do you think the game's going to be?

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I dont think people dont get excited by Halo's gameplay, they get put off by the sub standard presentation of the product, and a lack of storylines through inconsistent event schedules and formats. Look at Daytona's final, probably some of the craziest actual game play we have seen, an awesome run from an underdog in Oxygen Supremacy. Its the events which are letting the product down. 

 

I haven't been excited by ANY of it since the first Worlds to be honest. Could just be me, but I'm sure there are lots of people just like me, who have been playing since CE, watching since Halo 2, and are just no longer intrigued by Halo. And that's coming from someone who enjoyed H5 for quite some time as I reached spartan rank 145 or 147 (can't remember) like 1 year ago and my smurf is like a 50. Bored of the game, bored of watching it. The only thing keeping me around is this forum, and waiting for a "back to basics" game if it EVER comes out. 

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I dont think people dont get excited by Halo's gameplay, they get put off by the sub standard presentation of the product, and a lack of storylines through inconsistent event schedules and formats. Look at Daytona's final, probably some of the craziest actual game play we have seen, an awesome run from an underdog in Oxygen Supremacy. Its the events which are letting the product down. 

I agree partially but I also feel like a lot of blame rests squarely on the shoulders of the game designers and the people in charge of making decisions outside of just the HCS. Its very obvious that this game doesn't really appeal to very many people in general before we even talk about esports problems. Basically Halo is never going to be big unless the overall mentality changes but within that on the HCS side of things production could step up a lot to not chase away the few who are actually interested.

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One of the biggest indications to me that presentation is the most important factor in esports is how watchable Wembley was. The gameplay was pretty good, but obviously not the best in the scene. It was the production and presentation that put that event in my Top 3 of 2017. Everybody involved in those areas absolutely smashed it.

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I dont think people dont get excited by Halo's gameplay, they get put off by the sub standard presentation of the product, and a lack of storylines through inconsistent event schedules and formats. Look at Daytona's final, probably some of the craziest actual game play we have seen, an awesome run from an underdog in Oxygen Supremacy. Its the events which are letting the product down.

presentation is what needs to improve most for events imo. Look how bad viewership has gotten since the rest of the world found out about how bad the scene has gotten with worlds 2017 even though the settings are better.

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Well, I hardly ever post here. So if this post gets put on blast, ignored, down voted to hell, or all of the above... oh well. However, last night I quickly made a post expressing my disappointment in the divisiveness within the community over the recently released placement payout restructuring. I would just like to touch on that thought a little further. Before, during, and after my post, bickering continued between posters that breached into the personal insults category and very rarely consisted of constructive criticism of idealogical views about said topic. To reiterate, I rarely post here, so I'm not sure how much this type of shtick is engrained within the community, but posts preceding this one, user(s) are being called out for something as small as the proper use of possessive pronouns.  :stern:

 

A warning before, I have no real intentions of trying to spark any sort of political debate, just in the context of the argument, my minimal brain activity can only think of these two examples that will follow. With that said, on the topic of the placement payout...(deep breath) It seems that (roughly and not definitively for sure, again I don't want to insult anyone in anyway) that two schools of thought exist and I will do my best not to label them as they more than likely will be, but such is life. Some are in favor of what seems to be the prevalent form of "trickle-down" payouts, while others are more excepting of the more "progressive" form just implemented that more closely represents "trickle-up." Again, these could be extremely lazy or flat out wrong attempts to label the differences. If so, call my dumb ass out, my feelings won't be hurt. 

 

In regards to bettering the Halo community, both ways have their merits and faults. With a "trickle-down" system in Halo payouts, the top players get payed more (duh idiot), this allows them to live a (subjectively) more comfortable life, afford them the ability to put on higher quality and entertaining streams with happier personalities, giveaways, all types of crap I can't currently think of to garner a more hyped and emotionally invested viewer base. Most important of all though, that would hopefully lead to more viewers for the game. In a perfect world this would greatly help the community as a whole, I assume. However, the down side is that for this to work, those top talents need to give back to the community. It is a requirement for it to work. I'm certainly not trying to call any pro out for not doing that. I'm only stating what the system needs. Again, I really don't want to be insulting toward anyone.

 

With the "trickle-up" system, a greater number of people are more able to participate fully in the tournaments and what not. Obviously the 9-16 teams aren't going to be able to quit their day jobs or anything, but they would be helped out a little bit. So feasibly, this too would lead to a larger and wider community solely based off of more people being able to take their shot and participate more regularly in tournaments and the like. Sure the upper echelon of players would be docked a little money, but is that worth complaining about if the betterment of the Halo community could prosper from it? I'm not equipped with the experience nor the knowledge to say one way or another. I'm sure many pros are in no risk of being thrust into the "poor house" with such a change, but I'm also sure some pros would be heavily affected.

 

Again, I'm not trying to further a divide in the community, only to point out neither way is inherently evil, but both have negatives associated with them in some way. Personally I don't really wont to commit to either side. Nor do I want to attack anyone's beliefs. The only statements I have seen (I'm not name dropping) that I will disagree with are the ones that in summation states that when one was an amateur and trying to break into the pro ranks, it wasn't easy for them. They had to rough it to make it. Now, I'm quite aware, this is a stretch, but again, it is the only thing coming to my feeble brain at these early hours, but... My grandparents worked extremely hard so they could provide a better life for my parents, who in turn did the exact same for me. If or when my times comes (side and unrelated note, this general idea is totally unappealing to me at the moment) I intend to do the same. So basically, while I am quite sure many of todays pros struggled greatly to break into the pro ranks, I just don't like the ideology of "If I had to go through it, so should you." That's it, I'm not trying to choose sides...really, I promise!

 

All that being said, I finally would like to get back to the original point. The one where I'm disappointed in the division within the community currently. As stated time and again, this isn't the first, nor is it the last time this will be stated, but Halo isn't exactly in a good state at the moment. So instead of continuing the infighting, I wish we could band together and as one, get back on that tired train of complaining about the lack of checks and balances, as well as a lack of accountability by TO's, Microsoft, 343, and any and/or all parties with the position to actually improve the overall Halo experience.

 

All of this was basically a possibly futile attempt to state that in some small way or another, we all are and should be held accountable for the current state of Halo. Some more than others of course. Now I know it is easier said than done, but I would love if the community could gain some steam and some how force a positive change to our beloved game's current predicament. Of course that would first require a well thought out plan that actually works, but baby steps dammit! I still love playing this game. Seeing and trying to do what the best in the world do and actually succeeding five percent of the time is still one of the greatest feelings I have while playing video games these days. I just want the scene to prosper, that's all. 

 

Tl;dr version: Can't we all just get along? I like Halo.

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Didnt think I would see pros complaining about the lower teams getting some money essentially covering there costs to get to the event. meh

Greed .
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BfIO4h0.png

This is the thing that is crazy to me and always will be. This is what Halo got to with MLG and crowdfunding, and I personally believe this is when Halo 5 reached its peak then after this ESL took over and things went very very down hill. I just wonder what wouldve happened if 343 went with MLG and let them do the pro circuit and do things there way. I think this game would be way bigger than CoD right now based off of that. 

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Are you sure the guy didn't have old empty rockets before he picked the new ones up? That's what it looks like to me.

Lmao yeah. I'm dumb for not noticing
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This is how I feel about the prize pool distribution.

 

ANstMeL.jpg

 

A prize for SIXTEENTH place?  Are you kidding me?  This is just not how I was brought up.

 

First, Second, Third gets a prize.  That's it.  The real world doesn't award people for coming in 16th place.  Hell, it doesn't even award people for coming in second.  This is a COMPETITION.  People should COMPETE for a prize, not be rewarded for placing top 16.

 

Just my opinion.

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