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Halo World Championship 2017 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion‏

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Actually I think being able to shoot while clambering would make the game more competitive. The problem with most of the abilities is that it separates movement skill from gun skill, now with things like sprint you can either move fast or shoot, while in the past you had to be able to move and jump while shooting. So a change where you can use more abilities while having your gun up would improve the skill gap of the game.

Or you know, just removing all abilities that puts your gun down.

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Browser not letting me quote for some reason. But to reply to poster above, I don't really see a skill gap in the "cheesy" plays so much as I see certain players fully accepting and exploiting them, whereas I see certain other players almost always using the pistol, even in close range fights (ninja comes to mind), rarely crouching, etc. I feel like some pros still have a tendency to not accept that crouching/autos are a huge part of the game now and as a result maybe put themselves at a disadvantage.

 

Even as a casual I've noticed myself not utilizing crouching and autos near as much as I should. It's like I am subconsciously trying to protest their presence in the game by not using them, even though I know that is dumb.

 

I 100% agree that the "cheesy" plays in Halo aren't skill based. However, Royal 2 is actually BETTER at them than other players. I don't think he exploits it more often, I think he is better at identifying the opportunity to use them and thus is the most successful with them.

 

If he was simply crouching around the map he would not be anywhere near the top of the HCS Fantasy page. Not to mention he ALWAYS has the best K/D Ratio of any player in Halo 5 since it came out. 

 

Stats geeks has Royal 2 ever not been the highest K/D Player in H5?

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Actually I think being able to shoot while clambering would make the game more competitive. The problem with most of the abilities is that it separates movement skill from gun skill, now with things like sprint you can either move fast or shoot, while in the past you had to be able to move and jump while shooting. So a change where you can use more abilities while having your gun up would improve the skill gap of the game.

I'm conflicted about letting the player shoot whilst clambering...

 

On the one hand it would allow for clambering mid combat. On the other I quite like the potential trade off options it can allow for. It also gives a big advantage to those who can do a jump without clambering such as by crouch jumping.

 

As I said before I think almost all the issues with clamber could be solved if they reduced the number of jumps which require clamber.

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Been playing since h2 and finally played alot of no radar last night; so here's my 2 cents.

 

It's complicated. On a game like Truth Slayer it was great. Our communication won us the game which I felt hasn't been as big of a factor in H5. Then you play Empire Strongholds. Holy cow it was hot garbage. So many assassinations, my average life was like 12 seconds and I felt like there was so little strategy.

 

"You just need to get use to it." I don't think so. Even on CTF certain maps it was so chaotic. With all these Spartan abilities, you can get around the map in 5 seconds. You're not just checking corners like in H3. You're constantly looking in every direction to check that random ledge, pyramid, blue sneaky, etc.

 

Just 2 examples. But point is some maps/ gametypes it felt great, others it was a complete mess. Practice would make it feel more comfortable, but I don't see how (especially) Strongholds would be magically better No Radar. But you can't have radar for only some gametypes. Idk... I think the most practical way to improve the competitive scene is nerfing AR's. You absolutely cannot have radar and powerful autos together.

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Stats geeks has Royal 2 ever not been the highest K/D Player in H5?

 

I thought Huke had the highest K/D during summer season but I could be wrong about that.

 

Edit: Yep, I was wrong.  @Moses_FPS posted below.

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Or you know, just removing all abilities that puts your gun down.

If we're stuck with it, make it good.

 

I'm conflicted about letting the player shoot whilst clambering...

 

On the one hand it would allow for clambering mid combat. On the other I quite like the potential trade off options it can allow for. It also gives a big advantage to those who can do a jump without clambering such as by crouch jumping.

 

As I said before I think almost all the issues with clamber could be solved if they reduced the number of jumps which require clamber.

I agree with the last part, but being able to shoot while clamber makes it less of a suicidal play, and makes doing it on accident less annoying.

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Stats geeks has Royal 2 ever not been the highest K/D Player in H5?

he's been #1 as long as i've (+fantasy team) been tracking

 

zhxIBhS.png

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If we're stuck with it, make it good.

There's no making it good, there's only some people learning to live with it.

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Why, you got some juicy intel?  :intel:  :intel:

 

Lethul's going to get dropped for Eco  :kappa:

 

So how did Ninja, Commonly and Heinz seem to do together?

 

I saw a couple of games but it being 3am I wasn't paying that much attention...

 

 

Ground pound is awesome and I've yet to see a good argument against it.

 

It was just friends doing MM... doubt that's a T03 since they wouldn't have a seed then. Could see Ninja/Commonly being a duo, or Ninja/Heinz, since Ninja is a pretty good playstyle replacement for APG...

 

Assuming nV & OG stay the same, I see these teams staying together for first LAN in race for third spot (after which we enter another rostermania). These are also my LAN rankings/predictions

TL: Stellur, Eco, Rayne, Penguin. (interesting note: Snakebite has played a lot of custom games recently with both Eco & Stellur). 

ALG: Contra, PreDev, Bubu, Shooter. So much LAN potential. Hope they stick together. 

E6/C9: Spartan, Cratos, El Town, Suspector - lots of history and chemistry. 

After the top 5 teams things get a lot more complicated...

LG: Naded, Danoxide, Falcated (friend of Danoxide, typical Naded young gun pickup). Fourth could be Commonly, Str8 Sick, or Heinz if Ace/APG do stick with EG.

EG: Potentially Ace/APG + Roybox, though I'd prefer to see Ace + VicX. Or Str8 Sick + VicX. Or Renegade + VicX. Notice a trend? :bman:

Str8: Possibly dead in water if Ace/APG both leave. I'd like to see APG & Heinz duo + Str8 Sick and Ninja, but most likely the seed gets lost and this becomes some sort of leftovers team between Ninja, VicX, Str8 Sick, Heinz, Commonly, + maybe open circuit players? Lots of "support" here. 

 

Edit: Realize last part of post contradicts first part.  :simms:

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..

 

 

Ground pound is awesome and I've yet to see a good argument against it.

 

To be fair, i have yet to see a good argument FOR it either.  Of all the abilities that i want gone, that's the one at the bottom of the list so if it stays, so be it, i wont throw a fit.  

 

But it's also just another one of those "change for the sake of change" things that I don't see as adding any additional value to the game. It's "Cool" like the first 3 times you do it.. then it just doesn't make an impression any more (for me anyway). I don't see the point of adding something if there is no actual added value with it.

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To be fair, i have yet to see a good argument FOR it either.  Of all the abilities that i want gone, that's the one at the bottom of the list so if it stays, so be it, i wont throw a fit.  

 

But it's also just another one of those "change for the sake of change" things that I don't see as adding any additional value to the game. It's "Cool" like the first 3 times you do it.. then it just doesn't make an impression any more (for me anyway). I don't see the point of adding something if there is no actual added value with it.

Changes the movement and flag-running dynamic, ground pounding flags in, etc. Think there's a lot of additional value added with the mechanic.

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I specifically told you what you got negged for a week ago. Agreed 100%. There is a real toxic, hivemind-esq, mentality in these forums. You said "there is a real toxic, hivemind-esq, mentality in these forums. So sick of crying babies who can't be rational."

 

That's not cool bro

 

It does fix things. A lot of things actually. Have you watched no-radar Halo 5 or even just read one of the hundreds of posts on why radar is detrimental to comp play?

 

lol I don't know when you got into Halo but you really seem to not get what this forum is about.

You take one piece of my comment and make it sound like its nazi propaganda yet you ignore all the other language that gets toss around here far too often (which is what my comment was referring to).  I've been in Halo since day one, as have thousands of other people who exist outside this forum believe it or not.  I don't know when you got into Halo either but I could make the same generalization based on your opinions that I don't agree with.  But I won't.

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Been playing since h2 and finally played alot of no radar last night; so here's my 2 cents.

It's complicated. On a game like Truth Slayer it was great. Our communication won us the game which I felt hasn't been as big of a factor in H5. Then you play Empire Strongholds. Holy cow it was hot garbage. So many assassinations, my average life was like 12 seconds and I felt like there was so little strategy.

"You just need to get use to it." I don't think so. Even on CTF certain maps it was so chaotic. With all these Spartan abilities, you can get around the map in 5 seconds. You're not just checking corners like in H3. You're constantly looking in every direction to check that random ledge, pyramid, blue sneaky, etc.

Just 2 examples. But point is some maps/ gametypes it felt great, others it was a complete mess. Practice would make it feel more comfortable, but I don't see how (especially) Strongholds would be magically better No Radar. But you can't have radar for only some gametypes. Idk... I think the most practical way to improve the competitive scene is nerfing AR's. You absolutely cannot have radar and powerful autos together.

Is empire strongholds a good gametype in the first place? Even at the pro level I just see teams bombarding the middle stronghold with grenades and ARs. It seems like that entire gametype in general needs to be reworked and I'm not sure if it's the best test for new settings.
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Meanwhile a player in LoL is simply too constrained by the mechanics of the game to run away with things like that. In LoL each kill takes agonizingly long, like a soccer game that goes scoreless. LoL is a war of attrition.

 

Millions and millions of people drink Bud Light every day, that doesn't make it good. It makes it cheap.

I deleted most of your post because I do agree. Halo is a GREAT Esports title, and its popularity is restrained due to its player base when compared to Esports like LoL, DotA and CS:GO. But its that popularity and community that makes them the Goliath's of Esports.

Anyway. I just want to address what you said, but I'll comment after these two multi quotes: 

 

You are wrong, a perfect LoL player playing adc will destroy an entire team by himself, he will never miss a minion, will always sidestep all the skillshots like a robot, will kite like a god , will build the perfect item for the game, will have perfect back times and buys. Will have perfect shotcalling and will have perfect teamfighting. LoL has a higher skill ceiling and a higher skill gap than any console game ever.

 

Guess I don't know enough about LoL to comment. Can anyone else weigh in on the assertion that a perfect LoL player could destroy an entire team themselves? I would have thought that to be impossible even with perfect mechanics, but maybe I'm not appreciating how possible it is to juke / damage other players disproportionately. 

 

Keep in mind I'm saying a player with perfect mechanics, not perfect strategy. Obviously if we prefigure that the player does everything literally perfectly, they win by definition. Imagine more like you had a good, top player driving around a character and calling all the shots, but having the devil's hands.

 

You're wrong. Players in League can entirely carry a team by themselves (though harder to do at the higher levels of play). Getting fed in LoL (Kills, Obj, Minions) will allow you to level up faster gaining more XP and utilize more gold to buy stronger items. You mentioned slow kill times making it a war of attrition and you couldn't be more wrong. Sure there is a fair share of "poking" (damage without actually engaging/committing to a fight), but when a fight happens to make a play for a kill...the kills usually take a few seconds...sometimes quicker then a Halo perfect shot kill from the pistol. 

 

Now think of this. Think of a Halo player SO individually good, mechanically incredible, always on step ahead of you, no matter what, so skilled that it was considered a feat to just be able to kill him once in a 1v1. I'm not saying like "wooo, celebrate, I killed him". I'm saying you'll make headlines for killing him 1v1, he's that good...and you just killed him ONCE. Commentators and the crowd will chant your name, JUST for killing him in one 1v1. 

 

Thats Faker, the Korean mid laner for team SK Telecom T1. 3 time World Champion and considered pretty widely to be the best LoL player in the world for a few years running. A player so good, that headlines are made JUST for killing him. Somebody so good that other mid laners want to play him, just to get anhilated by him. A player so good that entire hype videos are made specifically highlighting teams looking to take him down. In an interview, Faker said: 

 

Interviewer: "Don't you think your presence prevents other midlaners from receiving proper recognition of their skill?",

Faker responded that he believes his presence actually highlights more midlaners than it shadows: "Even solo killing me once puts a player in the limelight.""

 

Watch a few minutes of this, its a highlight reel of Faker in competitive play. It'll highlight his individual skill, but even more so you'll see the kill times and it'll show that League is anything but slow paced. 

 

 

LoL has a higher skill cap and ceiling than any console game, easily. There are more characters, skills, timings, objectives, I could go on and on,  than any FPS shooter has ever had, in each individual game on the Rift (The name of the map is Summoners Rift). I'm not saying Halo isnt friendlier for spectators, and it definitely has the recipe(mostly) for success as an Esport, but as somebody who has played both at a moderately high level of competition, LoL has a much higher skill ceiling. 

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LoL has a higher skill cap and ceiling than any console game, easily. There are more characters, skills, timings, objectives, I could go on and on,  than any FPS shooter has ever had, in each individual game on the Rift (The name of the map is Summoners Rift). 

LoL isn't that high of a skill cap, theres just much more preparation and strategy in it than most games. Dota has a much higher skill cap.

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Changes the movement and flag-running dynamic, ground pounding flags in, etc. Think there's a lot of additional value added with the mechanic.

 

The only time I can think of that it makes a difference is scoring a cap on Truth? 

 

But like i said, GP is bottom of the list of shit I care about compared to Charge, Autos, easy weapons, radar, respawn times etc.  I'm not convinced that it adds any value, but at the same time arguing vehemently for its removal would just add noise to more important discussions.

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LoL isn't that high of a skill cap, theres just much more preparation and strategy in it than most games. Dota has a much higher skill cap.

 

Do you play? I strongly disagree with this. The difference between a bronze-gold player is vast. The skill between gold-diamond is HUGE. The skill between Diamond and Challenger/Master is colossal. There are thousands upon thousands of people who GRIND LoL and struggle just to make it into Gold/Platnium. Let alone the higher tiers like Diamond. Whats your argument that it doesn't have a high skill cap? You can CONSTANTLY improve your individual skill in terms of mechanics, awareness, strategy, understanding what the enemy can and cant do, positioning, blah blah blah. 

 

Preparation and strategy factor into skill cap, do they not? Do you not consider strategy to be a fundamental skill in competitive Halo? I never said DotA didnt have a higher skill cap than League, but thats not the argument. The arguement was between Halo and LoL.

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Actually I think being able to shoot while clambering would make the game more competitive. The problem with most of the abilities is that it separates movement skill from gun skill, now with things like sprint you can either move fast or shoot, while in the past you had to be able to move and jump while shooting. So a change where you can use more abilities while having your gun up would improve the skill gap of the game.

Not being able to shoot while clambering is a travesty, it wouldnt be so bad if every jump could be made w/o clamber, but as it stands too often i have to choose between improving my position and dealing damage.

 

It also sucks that many jumps require seeing the ledge and having momentum (aquired through sprint) which limits options.

 

Id love to see sprint replaced with strafe acceleration and a clamber that works in all directions and doesnt prevent shooting.

 

Hell i think a double jump or wall jump would be better than clamber (though I'd prefer good old fashioned crouch jumping) Or if they nixed sprint they could use that button for autostabilize (independent from zoom) and let that be a tool for skill jumping in all directions.

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I deleted most of your post because I do agree. Halo is a GREAT Esports title, and its popularity is restrained due to its player base when compared to Esports like LoL, DotA and CS:GO. But its that popularity and community that makes them the Goliath's of Esports.

Anyway. I just want to address what you said, but I'll comment after these two multi quotes:

 

 

 

You're wrong. Players in League can entirely carry a team by themselves (though harder to do at the higher levels of play). Getting fed in LoL (Kills, Obj, Minions) will allow you to level up faster gaining more XP and utilize more gold to buy stronger items. You mentioned slow kill times making it a war of attrition and you couldn't be more wrong. Sure there is a fair share of "poking" (damage without actually engaging/committing to a fight), but when a fight happens to make a play for a kill...the kills usually take a few seconds...sometimes quicker then a Halo perfect shot kill from the pistol.

 

Now think of this. Think of a Halo player SO individually good, mechanically incredible, always on step ahead of you, no matter what, so skilled that it was considered a feat to just be able to kill him once in a 1v1. I'm not saying like "wooo, celebrate, I killed him". I'm saying you'll make headlines for killing him 1v1, he's that good...and you just killed him ONCE. Commentators and the crowd will chant your name, JUST for killing him in one 1v1.

 

Thats Faker, the Korean mid laner for team SK Telecom T1. 3 time World Champion and considered pretty widely to be the best LoL player in the world for a few years running. A player so good, that headlines are made JUST for killing him. Somebody so good that other mid laners want to play him, just to get anhilated by him. A player so good that entire hype videos are made specifically highlighting teams looking to take him down. In an interview, Faker said:

 

Interviewer: "Don't you think your presence prevents other midlaners from receiving proper recognition of their skill?",

Faker responded that he believes his presence actually highlights more midlaners than it shadows: "Even solo killing me once puts a player in the limelight.""

 

Watch a few minutes of this, its a highlight reel of Faker in competitive play. It'll highlight his individual skill, but even more so you'll see the kill times and it'll show that League is anything but slow paced.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-H3aqD7fbw

 

LoL has a higher skill cap and ceiling than any console game, easily. There are more characters, skills, timings, objectives, I could go on and on, than any FPS shooter has ever had, in each individual game on the Rift (The name of the map is Summoners Rift). I'm not saying Halo isnt friendlier for spectators, and it definitely has the recipe(mostly) for success as an Esport, but as somebody who has played both at a moderately high level of competition, LoL has a much higher skill ceiling.

Isn't it pretty much a given that @@RyaNoob would be the best to comment on the skill gap between Halo and League? He's a pro at Halo and I believe he was mid-high diamond in LoL from what I heard. Would love to hear his input, although I think everyone knows he's gonna agree that LoL has more of a skill gap. Also Faker is a literal God. Dude could easily go to DotA and wreck if he wanted, he'd just need a year or so probably. Why he would though when his contract for League has to be in the millions of dollars, plus prize money.

 

In regards to the movement mechanics, we can talk about how autostabilize and GP helped improve movement but they were never designed for that. And GP has made Truth CTF such a bore to watch. It should be disabled for the flag runner tbh.

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Do you play? I strongly disagree with this. The difference between a bronze-gold player is vast. The skill between gold-diamond is HUGE. The skill between Diamond and Challenger/Master is colossal. There are thousands upon thousands of people who GRIND LoL and struggle just to make it into Gold/Platnium. Let alone the higher tiers like Diamond. Whats your argument that it doesn't have a high skill cap? You can genuinely CONSTANTLY improve your individual skill in terms of mechanics, awareness, and strategy. 

 

Preparation and strategy factor into skill cap, do they not? I can be mechanically god like..but if I have NO idea what I'm doing ever, then I'll be low tier. I never said DotA didnt have a higher skill cap than League, but thats not the argument. The arguement was between Halo and DotA. 

Oh I played a decent amount when Dota 1 started to die off before I got back into Dota2 and mechanically it's not that difficult. If you're going to factor in teamwork and awareness then sure it's a high cap game. I can't think of the exact way to word it but it reminds me much more of Chess where it takes preparation, intelligience, and awareness but not much for mechanical skills.

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Isn't it pretty much a given that @@RyaNoob would be the best to comment on the skill gap between Halo and League? He's a pro at Halo and I believe he was mid-high diamond in LoL from what I heard. Would love to hear his input, although I think everyone knows he's gonna agree that LoL has more of a skill gap.

 

In regards to the movement mechanics, we can talk about how autostabilize and GP helped improve movement but they were never designed for that. And GP has made Truth CTF such a bore to watch. It should be disabled for the flag runner tbh.

 

Theres actually quite a few high tier players from the Halo community that play League at a high level. Insteriyo, Elitest(used to at least), Ryanoob, and a bunch of others that did or have. I'd love to hear some input. 

 

I peaked in Diamond when I was truly GRINDING League of Legends and finished up last season in Platnium. 

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Isn't it pretty much a given that @@RyaNoob would be the best to comment on the skill gap between Halo and League? He's a pro at Halo and I believe he was mid-high diamond in LoL from what I heard. Would love to hear his input, although I think everyone knows he's gonna agree that LoL has more of a skill gap. Also Faker is a literal God. Dude could easily go to DotA and wreck if he wanted, he'd just need a year or so probably. Why he would though when his contract for League has to be in the millions of dollars, plus prize money.

 

In regards to the movement mechanics, we can talk about how autostabilize and GP helped improve movement but they were never designed for that. And GP has made Truth CTF such a bore to watch. It should be disabled for the flag runner tbh.

Ryanoob played Dota, was even in a TI qualifier last year.

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Oh I played a decent amount when Dota 1 started to die off before I got back into Dota2 and mechanically it's not that difficult. If you're going to factor in teamwork and awareness then sure it's a high cap game. I can't think of the exact way to word it but it reminds me much more of Chess where it takes preparation, intelligience, and awareness but not much for mechanical skills.

 

I respectfully and whole heartedly disagree, but we're battling opinions here so we'll leave it at that. 

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Theres actually quite a few high tier players from the Halo community that play League at a high level. Insteriyo, Elitest(used to at least), Ryanoob, and a bunch of others that did or have. I'd love to hear some input.

 

I peaked in Diamond when I was truly GRINDING League of Legends and finished up last season in Platnium.

Man, I have such a hard time grinding the game that I haven't even been able to play ranked yet. It's really difficult going from fps to moba after only playing games in first person your whole life. Doesn't stop me from watching the game though. Worlds was amazing. Have a really hard time watching tournaments from before the rift update though. Not sure how anybody could watch or play with those graphics.
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I respectfully and whole heartedly disagree, but we're battling opinions here so we'll leave it at that. 

I can respect that, but just curious as to what you think takes much technical skill in league? 

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