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Halo World Championship 2017 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion‏

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I think you have to be a manager for a team currently holding a Pro seed to submit a roster. So not necessarily anyone can submit one, but the managers (Symbolic, Towey, Elumnite, Royal1, etc) could do some pretty crazy shit.

Imagine If all the managers got together and wanted to troll the league with wacky rosters.

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The whole point of these rules is to promote team consistency, and make the organization / team names feel more real and less like "some name we gave to this particular group of 4 players." You don't seed the NFL draft based on individual player performances, you do it based on the team organization. The whole idea that the org and the manager own the team stems from this. They're trying to make it feel more professional.

 

 

Of course, it appears to me that the crowd has spoken, and we prefer thinking about players more than teams. Team drama is part of what makes Halo fun, and watching the same teams play over and over turns out to be not as fun as you'd think. So I think they had the right goal, and I can understand why they were approaching things that way. But they should make a pivot and try to find other ways to keep the league feeling professional without tying everything to the orgs, which have proven to have  inescapably ephemeral relationships with any one player.

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The whole point of these rules is to promote team consistency, and make the organization / team names feel more real and less like "some name we gave to this particular group of 4 players." You don't seed the NFL draft based on individual player performances, you do it based on the team organization. The whole idea that the org and the manager own the team stems from this. They're trying to make it feel more professional.

 

 

Of course, it appears to me that the crowd has spoken, and we prefer thinking about players more than teams. Team drama is part of what makes Halo fun, and watching the same teams play over and over turns out to be not as fun as you'd think. So I think they had the right goal, and I can understand why they were approaching things that way. But they should make a pivot and try to find other ways to keep the league feeling professional without tying everything to the orgs, which have proven to have inescapably ephemeral relationships with any one player.

The Halo scene is in diapers compared to other Esports, literally every team except NV/OG got dismantled in the last rostermania.

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First notice of any roster situation was brought to our attention on January 9th.

 

All parties involved were aware of the discussions and made aware of the projected result of the situation before the final ruling and submission of any roster.

 

To clarify again, contracts were not part of the discussion, only League rules.

Your refusal to acknowledge how awful this ruling was is maddening. Whether you reverse the decision or not, at least own up to your mistake. ESL should be trying to garner as much goodwill as possible but you continue to take this limited fanbase for granted. Man up and admit a mistake was made and apologize so we can all move on.

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The whole point of these rules is to promote team consistency, and make the organization / team names feel more real and less like "some name we gave to this particular group of 4 players." You don't seed the NFL draft based on individual player performances, you do it based on the team organization. The whole idea that the org and the manager own the team stems from this. They're trying to make it feel more professional.

 

 

Of course, it appears to me that the crowd has spoken, and we prefer thinking about players more than teams. Team drama is part of what makes Halo fun, and watching the same teams play over and over turns out to be not as fun as you'd think. So I think they had the right goal, and I can understand why they were approaching things that way. But they should make a pivot and try to find other ways to keep the league feeling professional without tying everything to the orgs, which have proven to have  inescapably ephemeral relationships with any one player.

 

I'll just quote lethul and say this isn't a real sport, stop trying to make it a sport.  :lxthul:

 

But honestly, I get what your saying but I think any ties to an org should be handled between the org and the player based on contracts. The "league" in professional sports doesn't dictate the player/organization relationship. If organizations want to hold onto players they need to give them contracts that incentive a player staying for a certain amount of time. If players don't want that because they don't want to be "tied down" then they should get less appealing contracts. The "league" should be in place to help hold the integrity of the competition at a high standard and they should have rules in place that honor those contractual obligations. So I don't believe the current system they have in place is ANYTHING like a professional sport.

 

Right now players are tied to nothing it seems except how a manager feels the day he submits a roster to ESL.

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The Halo scene is in diapers compared to other Esports, literally every team except NV/OG got dismantled in the last rostermania.

 

Exactly, but you don't grow up by just leaving the diapers on. Structuring things this way puts incentives towards moving in that direction. And ultimately, maybe that is where things should go - the players want to play the game, not manage complicated interactions with the league. If you imagine Halo got 10 times bigger, there would start to be a lot of responsibility falling to the team manager, and we would see them as a bigger and more important part of the scene.

 

As it stands now, it's the players, not the orgs, that are deciding on the teams. Now we can either decide now that this is how it will always be, and that this is a good thing, and that the league should reverse any movement towards "org-centrism" and figure out a model that is more player-based. Or, you can admit that there's going to be some friction transitioning away from player-formed squads and into teams that in some sense own the players and the shape of the team.

 

 

Note that this is all separate from the issue of not requiring proof positive of contractual agreement to play for this org _for this season_. Insane that they don't require that. 

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As it stands now, it's the players, not the orgs, that are deciding on the teams.

 

No, according to ESL it is the manager deciding the teams. Player and Orgs be damned.

 

 

This approach is NOT org centric. It does NOT benefit Players or Orgs.

The ONLY way I see to do this correctly is like every other sport on the planet does. LEGAL CONTRACTS between organizations and players and a community that understands that players and organizations can't just ignore the legality of these contracts and if they want to "change" them before the terms are met they will have to come to a joint agreement.

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There is literally nothing you could say that is going to make you or ESL look good. So plz stop commenting about it. You guys fucked it up and had an exploitable rule, own it and move on .

 

On the contrary, if you want more transparency with TO's, best to let him post (good or bad.) Vivi is just clearing up how it happened and staying corporate, I doubt anyone at ESL actually thinks it's ethical but at the end of the day it was within the rules and they have to honour it.

 

The way I see it is loopholes are a thing. They happen and there's nothing they can do about it until the rules are amended. It's stupid that the loophole was never thought about before it's occurrence, and in this regard ESL needs to be smarter about the rules they create.

 

Literally outsmarted by a man with a 2nd grade vocabulary and his sidekick who relishes in being socially awkward in public for money.

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The whole point of these rules is to promote team consistency, and make the organization / team names feel more real and less like "some name we gave to this particular group of 4 players." You don't seed the NFL draft based on individual player performances, you do it based on the team organization. The whole idea that the org and the manager own the team stems from this. They're trying to make it feel more professional.

 

 

Of course, it appears to me that the crowd has spoken, and we prefer thinking about players more than teams. Team drama is part of what makes Halo fun, and watching the same teams play over and over turns out to be not as fun as you'd think. So I think they had the right goal, and I can understand why they were approaching things that way. But they should make a pivot and try to find other ways to keep the league feeling professional without tying everything to the orgs, which have proven to have inescapably ephemeral relationships with any one player.

There's nothing about this setup that makes it feel more consistent or professional.

 

If the desired goal was to align roster decisions with org management, then ESL/343 should come out with a schedule far enough in advance so that Orgs could align their contract durations with roster transition periods.

 

This way, organizations could make sure they control their seeds without worrying about players walking away with them. And the entire process would immediately be more transparent for the league,orgs, players, and viewers alike.

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No, according to ESL it is the manager deciding the teams. Player and Orgs be damned.

 

Right, but obviously in practice it has been the players seeking each other out and forming practice squads, then working out the contractual details once they're happy with it. The team manager is a natural choice for deciding on personnel, just like the front office of any real sports team. But the rules and regulations are out of sync with the way in which teams are actually formed / managed. That's the real issue here. Cratos and Showtime are making use of the rules in a way that is completely intended, insofar as Bubu was stuck in a contract they weren't releasing him from. We've gotten really used to contracts being bought out fairly routinely, but it is a _contract_. If you agree to play for the Raiders, but you have some friends that really want you to play for the Packers, you're going to have to get the Raiders permission on that before you just assume that you can dress in green come fall.

 

So my whole point is that if you want ESL to be like most professional sports leagues, then it's not the rules you dislike, it's Cratos as a person. And I'm on board with that, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater just because we like one player and not another. Unless we have some good ideas for totally moving away from a team / organization-based model, which I'm totally open to. But I haven't heard any particularly great ideas on this count?

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We don't really have 10 teams though we have 9, and then a sacrificial lamb

 

Name the 10th squad other than the 8 pro teams and bubu's squad.

With 10 teams in the league I think we should get more rotation of teams and players in the league. More, now higher up AMs, will get more spotlight which in turns will help the league long term. People see them playing there and think to themselves "I could be there too" so they start practicing more. Which means the average skill will be better. As it is now the league is very predictable and stale. Like @@BxbyJ said all the top AMs get hand picked to pro teams which in turns destroys the AM scene. Like right now there are people that stops playing left and right. Hunterjjx for example. With that one 10th spot that not clearly has a set team for it (in terms of you don't really know what that 10th team will be outside of those you mentioned) will only help the competitive Halo scene. Other people outside of top 8 has something really to play for.

 

This and a re-work of the settings will help competitive Halo big time imo.

 

Thoughts? @@Vivi @@Timo @@TheSimms @@GH057ayame

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With 10 teams in the league I think we should get more rotation of teams and players in the league. More, now higher up AMs, will get more spotlight which in turns will help the league long term. People see them playing there and think to themselves "I could be there too" so they start practicing more. As it is now the league is very predictable and stale. Like Bxby J said all the top AMs get hand picked to pro teams which in turns destroys the AM scene. Like right now there are people that stops playing left and right. Hunterjjx for example. With that one 10th spot that not clearly has a set team for it (in terms of you don't really know what that 10th team will be outside of those you mentioned) will only help the competitive Halo scene. Other people outside of top 8 has something really to play for.

 

This and a re-work of the settings will help competitive Halo big time imo.

 

Yup, I think the more important thing to take away from this is wow, we have a lot of pro-caliber players these days, we need to open the league up. Completely agree that it would improve motivation for even more players to get involved. It's also good to have god squads beating up on lesser teams every once in a while, because you can see how good the lesser team looks from their PoV until they get shit on by Optic / nV. That increases the respect and admiration for the best teams, because it highlights just how deep the skill gap is.

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Right, but obviously in practice it has been the players seeking each other out and forming practice squads, then working out the contractual details once they're happy with it. The team manager is a natural choice for deciding on personnel, just like the front office of any real sports team. But the rules and regulations are out of sync with the way in which teams are actually formed / managed. That's the real issue here. Cratos and Showtime are making use of the rules in a way that is completely intended, insofar as Bubu was stuck in a contract they weren't releasing him from. We've gotten really used to contracts being bought out fairly routinely, but it is a _contract_. If you agree to play for the Raiders, but you have some friends that really want you to play for the Packers, you're going to have to get the Raiders permission on that before you just assume that you can dress in green come fall.

 

So my whole point is that if you want to team to be like most professional sports leagues, then it's not the rules you dislike, it's Cratos as a person. And I'm on board with that, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater just because we like one player and not another. Unless we have some good ideas for totally moving away from a team / organization-based model, which I'm totally open to. But I haven't heard any particularly great ideas on this count?

You probably missed it, but i gave a better solution above. ESLs structure is nothing like a traditional sport ala the nfl.

 

One key difference is that the nfl has a static participation in its league. There is no promotion or relegation.

 

Part of what makes an esport exciting is the idea that a team/org needs to perform in order to participate. Thats where players holding the key to seeds makes sense.

 

The Bubu situation had NOTHING to do with bubu being under contract, and had everything to do with managers being able to claim ANY PLAYER THEY WANT. Bubu was chosen because a former e6 player was needed in order to claim the seed. Thats it. It could have been suspector it could have been shooter. Both of their roster moves would have been deemed violations of the rules if Showtimes roster didnt confirm it (even though Suspector was signed to ALG)

 

This is like the Raiders telling the league they want Aaron Rogers, and him instanly being put on the Raiders roster without consent from Aaron or the Packers.

 

To fix this situation, players need to have the power to confirm rosters AND orgs need shedules far enough in advance to be able to write contracts that take into consideration transfer periods. THIS is how they could ensure that they meet the personel requirements to keep their seeds.

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There's nothing about this setup that makes it feel more consistent or professional.

 

If the desired goal was to align roster decisions with org management, then ESL/343 should come out with a schedule far enough in advance so that Orgs could align their contract durations with roster transition periods.

 

This way, organizations could make sure they control their seeds without worrying about players walking away with them. And the entire process would immediately be more transparent for the league,orgs, players, and viewers alike.

 

I agree that the lack of schedule is completely unprofessional. But I disagree - the rules being the way they are encourage teams to become more solidified. The goal isn't to align decisions with org management, it's to GIVE the decisions to org management. It's their team, they're the one paying the bills, so they decide the roster.

 

 

If team managers were people who actually had strong insight into the game, and clear visions of a great team that they wanted to build, we'd take this a lot more seriously. It's the individuals and the organizations who have failed to live up to this ideal. They're just in it for more or less eSports contractual arbitrage. Nobody cares about Showtime's vision for the team, or what players he wants to put on E6. But we could live in that world, and arguably that's the world ESL is trying to create.

 

So I'd argue that the idea of the ruleset absolutely could make the league a more professional institution. But right now we have an impedance mismatch between player habits, the level of involvement of each org, the league's rules, and what the crowd wants to see.

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You probably missed it, but i gave a better solution above. ESLs structure is nothing like a traditional sport ala the nfl.

 

One key difference is that the nfl has a static participation in its league. There is no promotion or relegation.

 

Part of what makes an esport exciting is the idea that a team/org needs to perform in order to participate. Thats where players holding the key to seeds makes sense.

 

The Bubu situation had NOTHING to do with bubu being under contract, and had everything to do with managers being able to claim ANY PLAYER THEY WANT. Bubu was chosen because a former e6 player was needed in order to claim the seed. Thats it. It could have been suspector it could have been shooter. Both of their roster moves would have been deemed violations of the rules if Showtimes roster didnt confirm it (even though Suspector was signed to ALG)

 

This is like the Raiders telling the league they want Aaron Rogers, and him instanly being put on the Raiders roster without consent from Aaron or the Packers.

 

To fix this situation, players need to have the power to confirm rosters AND orgs need shedules far enough in advance to be able to write contracts that take into consideration transfer periods. THIS is how they could ensure that they meet the personel requirements to keep their seeds.

 

Gotcha, ok good comparison. That's genuinely insane if there is no requirement for mutual contractual agreement when a team is submitted.

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If ESL would just accept this as a genuine roster, then I think we have bigger issues.

 

I don't believe the ESL rule book is so airtight that ESL must insist upon obeying the letter of the law and completely ignoring its spirit.

 

The HCS Rulebook does not contain a "Spirit of the Rule" rule.

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If ESL would just accept this as a genuine roster, then I think we have bigger issues.

 

I don't believe the ESL rule book is so airtight that ESL must insist upon obeying the letter of the law and completely ignoring its spirit.

Exactly, that's ridiculous. I've always thought players had to confirm their presence.

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