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Halo World Championship 2017 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion‏

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Don't the pro league teams get paid a set amount already dependent on there seed and probably a salary from there orgs if they have them.

 

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snip

 

It existed in Halo CE too. There was the Dream Team that were gods until the Ogres came about and formed STK. STK were too good and so 4 top individual players formed for team FFA. Team FFA had beaten STK twice, and the ogres were no longer on top. What happens when the ogres are no longer on top? They recruit the best. Ogre 1 and Ogre 2 left StK and formed Team Domination, poaching both Walshy and Killer N from team FFA.

 

It was a hungry time for people. This has always existed in Halo. People switched teams purely to win.. I mean there was literally a team called "A Business Decision". With teams like F Gintron, FU Gintron, and Dug and His Buddies, there were plenty of team changes made purely to win, purely out of spite, and simply just to team with friends.

 

 

edit: one thing to point out is how much focus was on individual skill back then. I think actual teamwork didn't get a huge jumpstart for most teams till early 06. Halo 2 in 05 was kind of a weird year.

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I never said it sounded awful......

My original post was just pointing out that throwing a team together and hoping for the best has proven a lot better than sticking things out and hoping to improve within the halo scene. Being on the 5th best halo team in the world isn't exactly going to pay the bills so you're probably not going to see roster consistency you are describing until a more consistent guaranteed income is there

If orgs have more consistency in the scene they can build an actual brand within the scene. Make more money creating that brand, and be able to pay their players even more in contracts.

 

You keep saying "sticking things out", but that's not what would happen. If a team isn't doing well, they're not going to keep the same 4 players. They're going to look to make moves to improve their roster. But in this way, the orgs dont get completely screwed over by losing all their players and all the work they've put into branding those players on their team.

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Providing contracts for stable pay, gear, travel expenses, and for some orgs team houses. What else do you expect orgs to do?

 

Top Tier teams have stability because they're winning, that's it. Once EG stopped winning, looked what's happened to them in this scene.

 

Orgs cant provide stability roster-wise because players control everything. If a player decides they want to leave, guess what? Oh well 3 other players on the team. Oh well, org that has provided everything for the player. Shit out of luck.

 

Very attractive for orgs to enter the Halo scene like that.

 

I'm not arguing that it sucks for organizations. No doubt about it. I'm going to address a few of your points.

 

1) Nothing, unless you have more money to shell out. If you want your players to stay, you need to give them a reason to stay, end of story. If I can get what you're offering me at ANY other organization...and I can select my teammates, why should I stay with you? Its the same as working a 9-5. Lets say I work IT. Both jobs have a great kitchen, benefits, and PTO...but IT company 2 is offering 10k more and a staff I get a long with better. WHY would I stay? You need to provide the economic value to your players, and in the current state of Halo, if I was an organization, I would not be willing to. So to answer your question, there is nothing more to do. My solution? Salaries are increased MAJORLY across the board and rules are created by the League creating an environment that not only makes it harder to leave, but less appealing. 

 

2) Stability comes from economic value. Give the players the reasons to stay. For EG, it was winning. For Optic, its content (Look at Maniac and Flamesword, oh and winning). For Faze, its content to a massive audience. Regardless. Stability comes from value. 

 

3) Until salaries have 5 numbers or ESL implements strict roster regulations we wont see organizations controlling rosters any time soon.

 

4)  I understand the sarcasm, but you're right. Its not attractive, and the cons HEAVILY outweigh the pros for incoming organizations. I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying it like it is. 

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there's a lot of blame to go around when it comes to the instability in the pro halo scene

 

TOs, devs, orgs

 

 

the only people free from blame are the players

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Do you remember what happened when ESL/Halo put a cap on team changes? Everybody went bananas. 

 

 

Accidental neg.

 

But what are you talking about? People hated the Worlds 2016 season because of the constant nonsense team changes. There was no way to develop fan loyalty with teams or players because everyone was on a different team every single week, until X Games where teams were locked until Worlds.

 

I think the Pro League seasons have managed team change rules fairly well. People are more passionate about teams now than they were during HWC, orgs have a bit more power, and storylines are more potent and easier to follow than they were without roster restrictions.

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If orgs have more consistency in the scene they can build an actual brand within the scene. Make more money creating that brand, and be able to pay their players even more in contracts.

 

You keep saying "sticking things out", but that's not what would happen. If a team isn't doing well, they're not going to keep the same 4 players. They're going to look to make moves to improve their roster. But in this way, the orgs dont get completely screwed over by losing all their players and all the work they've put into branding those players on their team.

I'm not arguing with you about anything you're trying to say. Right now what you're describing is a situation where either a player or an org has to say 'give me this for awhile and i'll give you that' and it doesn't sound like a very good offer from either end. 

 

Sticking with an org could lead to bigger revenue outside of prize money, and an org sticking with a player could lead to a more consistent brand image. An org probably doesn't want to make a big commitment to player that can just fall off the face of the earth after one event (has happened) and a player doesn't want to be stuck with an org that promised big and didn't deliver which hinders their ability to find new teammates because nobody wants to join them on that org. 

 

Edit: Worlds just payed out 250k to the top4  players while an org is offering maybe 1k a month, I think E6 was higher. Risk vs reward, 1k is great extra income to have every month but most players could make that within their spare time outside of Halo and go for the gold with the world win. 

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What's been hearkened on a few times is that the Halo scene isn't as self-sufficient as other esports, and pro sports. The ad revenue, viewership, attendance at events, and general hype is not at the necessary level to sustain a "traditional" org-player system. It's been propped up by disproportionately massive prize pools and a smaller, dedicated community. Until the money becomes more organic, it's unrealistic to expect a sound economy.

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Accidental neg.

 

But what are you talking about? People hated the Worlds 2016 season because of the constant nonsense team changes. There was no way to develop fan loyalty with teams or players because everyone was on a different team every single week, until X Games where teams were locked until Worlds.

 

I think the Pro League seasons have managed team change rules fairly well. People are more passionate about teams now than they were during HWC, orgs have a bit more power, and storylines are more potent and easier to follow than they were without roster restrictions.

When the ruling was made that a team could only make one roster change during season, and then during the roster change period (or something to that extent, I'm hazy on the specifics), I recall the community being furious about it. Am I severely mistaken? 

 

Adding to this, I remember getting blowback when I was an Admin during H2A with Smalls and Mobstaz and we delivered a similar rule. Maybe my entire thought train revolves around H2A and this wasnt during Halo 5's era. 

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I'm not arguing that it sucks for organizations. No doubt about it. I'm going to address a few of your points.

 

1) Nothing, unless you have more money to shell out. If you want your players to stay, you need to give them a reason to stay, end of story. If I can get what you're offering me at ANY other organization...and I can select my teammates, why should I stay with you? Its the same as working a 9-5. Lets say I work IT. Both jobs have a great kitchen, benefits, and PTO...but IT company 2 is offering 10k more and a staff I get a long with better. WHY would I stay? You need to provide the economic value to your players, and in the current state of Halo, if I was an organization, I would not be willing to. So to answer your question, there is nothing more to do. My solution? Salaries are increased MAJORLY across the board and rules are created by the League creating an environment that not only makes it harder to leave, but less appealing. 

 

2) Stability comes from economic value. Give the players the reasons to stay. For EG, it was winning. For Optic, its content (Look at Maniac and Flamesword, oh and winning). For Faze, its content to a massive audience. Regardless. Stability comes from value. 

 

3) Until salaries have 5 numbers or ESL implements strict roster regulations we wont see organizations controlling rosters any time soon.

 

4)  I understand the sarcasm, but you're right. Its not attractive, and the cons HEAVILY outweigh the pros for incoming organizations. I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying it like it is. 

1) Why would orgs pay even higher salaries than they already do? They spend time building up the branding for that player in their org, for them to leave at any moment without notice. Orgs already lose money being in the Halo scene. Let's pay the players more so we can lose more?

 

2) Only 1 team wins; saying you should leave an org because you didnt win is ludicrous. And as for content, that's what orgs want to do. Build up a brand and a following in order to create that fanbase that will allow content and merchandise to sell. Impossible to do when players leave whenever they want.

 

3) You expect orgs to pay $10,000 a month per player contract? In the current Halo scene? You're off your rocker.

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All the people that think having more team stability would benefit this scene much are insane. The game is at the bottom of the totem pole of esports games both in terms of popularity and in gameplay. Teams staying the same isn't going to change that and orgs having control isn't the answer.

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When the ruling was made that a team could only make one roster change during season, and then during the roster change period (or something to that extent, I'm hazy on the specifics), I recall the community being furious about it. Am I severely mistaken? 

 

Each Pro League season had multiple roster change periods (from what I can remember).

 

  • Off-season allowed a change of two players per roster
  • Roster periods allowed a change of one player per roster
  • Special cases such as Naded/Maniac retirement allowed for additional changes

 

I don't recall anyone complaining about it much other than the players who ended up with extremely unfavorable/turmoiled teams (Summer Allegiance)

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Plus ad revenue and subscriptions on Twitch

And making YouTube content though orgs should be doing this as well it's kinda baffling that no one else has started emulating vision given how successful it is for Optic.

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the only people free from blame are the players

Except in every other esport scene the rostermania isn't as insane and horrible for orgs.

The players deciding to be as shady and unstable as possible definitely partly falls onto the players shoulders.

 

 

a player doesn't want to be stuck with an org that promised big and didn't deliver which hinders their ability to find new teammates because nobody wants to join them on that org. 

That's why it would fall onto the developers to make sure orgs go through with promises. Such as the commissioner of the NFL, etc.

 

And yeah, it happens in real sports right now where players aren't happy on their current team. (Andrew Luck, Drew Brees, etc.) Great talent not being surrounded by the players they need to be successful.

 

But they're not dropping out of the NFL because they still have their branding within those orgs, have a stable pay, and know they have the opportunity to leave those orgs when their contracts expire and they become a free agent.

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1) Why would orgs pay even higher salaries than they already do? They spend time building up the branding for that player in their org, for them to leave at any moment without notice. Orgs already lose money being in the Halo scene. Let's pay the players more so we can lose more?

 

2) Only 1 team wins; saying you should leave an org because you didnt win is ludicrous. And as for content, that's what orgs want to do. Build up a brand and a following in order to create that fanbase that will allow content and merchandise to sell. Impossible to do when players leave whenever they want.

 

3) You expect orgs to pay $10,000 a month per player contract? In the current Halo scene? You're off your rocker.

 

Dude. Did you even read my post? I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. 

 

These are DIRECTLY from my post:

 

"You need to provide the economic value to your players, and in the current state of Halo, if I was an organization, I would not be willing to."

"Its not attractive, and the cons HEAVILY outweigh the pros for incoming organizations. I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying it like it is. "

 

It sucks, no doubt about it. But thats the state of this Esport right now, and thats not changing. You cannot argue that economic value provides stability. If Allegiance tripled EVERY players salary and paid more than every other organization, I guarantee you would be able to make your perfect team, and nobody would leave. Tell me I'm wrong. Economic. Stability. 

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Each Pro League season had multiple roster change periods (from what I can remember).

 

  • Off-season allowed a change of two players per roster
  • Roster periods allowed a change of one player per roster
  • Special cases such as Naded/Maniac retirement allowed for additional changes

 

I don't recall anyone complaining about it much other than the players who ended up with extremely unfavorable/turmoiled teams (Summer Allegiance)

 

Fair enough. I feel like I remember a fair share of blow back, but its not worth biccuring about. Alas, you're also probably right  :simms:

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it's kinda baffling that no one else has started emulating vision given how successful it is for Optic.

Towey?

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Thanks for the reply @@ssbChad. It seems that something needs to be done to allow an org  to handle their roster like a GM of any pro sport, while providing them incentive to stay. I agree with everyone saying that crazy changes are going to happen as long as only top 3/4 teams make worthwhile money at the 3 lans provided. We need a lan focused league that provides ample opportunity for making money and exposure for orgs. If we have that then it seems that then the orgs could pay a livable wage with placement incentives.

 

As to the team changes leading to winners, there have been very few teams to undergo a massive change then turn around and start winning events immediately. They all needed time to get good as a team. Not saying it can't happen, but most dominate teams took time to get to the top

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It sucks, no doubt about it. But thats the state of this Esport right now, and thats not changing. You cannot argue that economic value provides stability. If Allegiance tripled EVERY players salary and paid more than every other organization, I guarantee you would be able to make your perfect team, and nobody would leave. Tell me I'm wrong. Economic. Stability. 

If it sucks, and there's no arguing about it, why are you just accepting it to stay that way? Why is not changing just an acceptable answer.

 

"If Allegiance tripled EVERY players salary and paid more than every other organization, I guarantee you would be able to make your perfect team, and nobody would leave. Tell me I'm wrong. Economic. Stability. "

You're wrong. Some players would stay, but others would leave at the first opportunity. 

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Except in every other esport scene the rostermania isn't as insane and horrible for orgs.

The players deciding to be as shady and unstable as possible definitely partly falls onto the players shoulders.

 

But they're not dropping out of the NFL because they still have their branding within those orgs, have a stable pay, and know they have the opportunity to leave those orgs when their contracts expire and they become a free agent.

 

Every other Esport also provides MUCH more financial stability and income. Riot provides a stable salary alone, PLUS the organization salary for example. 

They're not dropping out or changing teams because they have reasons to stay regardless of the situation...which Halo players do not. 

 

You're asking for something that just isnt appropriate for the state of Halo. What you want, we all want...its just not realistic or just at this time. 

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