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CyReN

Halo World Championship 2017 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion‏

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So i'm a big fan of smash (melee) and ive never played the game, but i do watch as much smash as i can.  Whats interesting about it being above some of these games is that it literally does not get more than a few hundred viewers total when there isnt a tournament unless mang0 streams, which isnt even most nights lately, and the tournaments do about as well as S2 finals for Halo, with over 100k for things like EVO, but then again worlds got about 100k.

 

What really makes melee big i think is the story lines and personalities, and people tend to watch content about players on youtube rather than tune into their stream.  If you check at any given time on twitch (which i do a lot because i watch halo and melee on twitch a lot) you will see that Halo is almost always above melee unless its a tournament or maybe if mang0 streams.  I mean melee gets legit like 200 viewers total on twitch from everyone not mang0, and maybe armada or m2k can pull close to 1k sometimes but i rarely even see that.

 

Melee is big, im not denying that and im happy for that fact, but it really doesnt do much better than Halo other than the fact that they have tournaments twice a month that all the top pros go to and Halo really doesn't do that.

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Kelby strikes again... IMO that list is completely jumbled and makes no sense.

 

This is from an article in 2015, so some stuff has definitely shuffled but the parameters are clear and I think it is far more accurate.

 

ZOi7a5z.png

 

http://esportsobserver.com/jens-hilgers-launches-the-esports-games-chart-to-evaluate-games-as-esports/

 

There's a lot of interesting stuff that can be gleamed from this, especially because CoD and Halo are being held up by their developer funded prize money. As someone mentioned, Melee/Smash doesn't have a very strong streaming scene, because most of their content is digested through YouTube in the form of player storylines/tournament highlights.

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Kelby strikes again... IMO that list is completely jumbled and makes no sense.

 

This is from an article in 2015, so some stuff has definitely shuffled but the parameters are clear and I think it is far more accurate.

 

ZOi7a5z.png

 

http://esportsobserver.com/jens-hilgers-launches-the-esports-games-chart-to-evaluate-games-as-esports/

So is online poker/blackjack an esport too? Since hearthstone is on that list..

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So is online poker/blackjack an esport too? Since hearthstone is on that list....

Hearthstone is a video game that's also a TCG.
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I like this. A list based more on facts and numeral requirements to define the tiers rather than opinion based nonsense on twitter.

Yeh but it's obviously not accurate as a means of determining the health of an esport. Halo is sat in the same space as CoD and SC2 both of which have much stronger and broader scenes.

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Just wondering, so Halo wasn't an eSports until the Halo 4 Global Championship then?

 

I'd say Halo started to become an "eSport" at some point during the Reach era. Prior to SC2's introduction to the MLG lineup, MLG very much marketed itself to make competitive video gamers seem "normal". They'd showcase their pro players as guys who still go to school and socialize, who enjoy things like sports and outdoor activities. Not once did MLG use the term "eSport".

 

In comes SC2, which Sundance and DMAQ say saved MLG financially, with casters using the "eSports" phrases that were developed in Korea. Guys like Tastless and Artosis call their audience nerds/nerd-ballers and make jokes about having pride in being reclusive guys at their computers who hate going outdoors. This is just the face of a huge paradigm shift in MLG, where they realized that they didn't need to provide Stride sponsorships to players like TL.Tyler and organizations like fnatic and Complexity start coming in to sponsor teams. MLG enters the world of eSports through SC2 in a way that WoW never did for it and starts to pull Halo along for the ride. MLG stops trying to market itself in the old way and continues to attempt to reach new audiences, they give Slasher a show caleld "eSports Report",  etc.

 

I think there might be an argument there to say that competitive Halo didn't fully become an eSport until 343's more active involvement with things since AGL didn't really fit the eSports mold, but I don't think that it's unfair to say that Halo wasn't an eSport prior to MLG adopting eSports marketing. Maybe one could argue that at some point Halo was in a grey area, like how SFV is right now.

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Yeh but it's obviously not accurate as a means of determining the health of an esport. Halo is sat in the same space as CoD and SC2 both of which have much stronger and broader scenes.

SC2 does not have a stronger scene. It's widely known StarCraft is dying on the vine. CoD on the other hand is not. Of course this list is old because no Rocket League or Rainbow Six: Siege (don't laugh they got 30K viewers for their ESL Pro league finals). 

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Radar is staying because 343i wants the base game to be mostly the same throughout all playlists. No doubt in my mind

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 Personally, I feel those moments are a small price to pay to actually have some sort of identity for this game that it lost after Reach.

 

This is such a good sentence. I wholeheartedly agree.

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The gameplay itself was awful on launch.

 

Most CS players at that point and for a year onward stuck with CS 1.6.

GO was meant to be a xbox 360 port of source of course it sucked dick at launch.

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Thanks for doing some testing, but Empire Strongholds is a mess no matter what. I'm curios, which others did you test that were too chaotic to play?

Plaza and Coliseum come to mind. Mainly sniper side for Coliseum. Thinking on it more I think the amount of levels/height difference in these H5 levels without radar was hard. Thinking of past H2 and 3 maps there weren't as many ledges or "sneakies" if that makes sense. On Plaza you can spawn in Flowers and when people are contending Bottom Mid you can take a second and sneak up from whatever angle you want with the lack of Radar. Only played about 6 or 7 games, would like to test more sometime.

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SC2 does not have a stronger scene. It's widely known StarCraft is dying on the vine. CoD on the other hand is not. Of course this list is old because no Rocket League or Rainbow Six: Siege (don't laugh they got 30K viewers for their ESL Pro league finals). 

SC2 2016
$3,677,612.87 From 172 Events
17.26% of Total Prize Money Awarded
 
Halo 2016
$2,947,974.23 From 16 Events
99.58% of Total Prize Money Awarded

 

Geographically SC2 obviously blows Halo out of the water in that it has scenes in Asia, EU and NA. Viewership despite being a 'dead game' it's been higher than Halo for most of the tournaments except the HWC.

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For most people, Halo is one of 3 things: 

 

1. That moment when the door opens on Assault on the Control Room

2. Trying to get your 50 in the early days of Halo 2 MM and caring about medals

3. Playing zombies, grifball, or other custom levels / games

 

 

Each of the first three Halos brought something wildly unique to the genre. For CE it wasn't just the mechanics, it was the whole ambiance. Halo 2 was the introduction of matchmaking and Xbox Live. Halo 3 introduced forge and the ability to make your own experience.

 

 

The reason the population is down is because the new games have not offered a completely new gaming experience that people are excited about. Halo 2 and Halo 3 rode off of the coattails of their predecessor's success, but they also delivered something fresh. All of the subsequent games have not had the same adventurousness to them. Bungie fucked up their core multiplayer mechanics at every opportunity, and arguably disappointed with Destiny. But they do at least have a pattern of adding something to the game that you didn't know you wanted until you saw it. 

 

I've said this a million times, but you start with the population, then you get the competitive scene. If nobody else plays the game, it's not cool to be good at it. That is 100% what is going on. That's why nobody cares about Halo. It's like seeing somebody who's really good at yo-yo-ing or something. "Neat, I can see how that takes some skill, but who cares?"

 

So if you're arguing that the key to return Halo to its former glory is to just do the same thing but polish it, just know that you're wrong. You have to be selling something bigger than that to rekindle interest, a novel experience. Doom, Quake, Counterstrike, Starcraft - think about how you _felt_ when you first played them. It's the soul that's missing, not the mechanics. Good mechanics are a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for greatness.

 

I'm not sure how this really contradicts the argument people are making. No one wants Halo to be "the same thing but more polished." They want it to resemble Halo, which was a unique experience in the context of the market (even after Bungie watered it down multiple times) and absolutely would be in the current market. I've made pretty long posts about this myself, but messing with the core mechanics is hardly the only problem that successive Halo games have had and while Reach was probably the start of the decline in large part for that reason, it still had marks of a Bungie game that 343 has struggled to reproduce. Great UI design, Bungie art and audio design (good lord is 343's awful), a unique social progression system that fostered engagement in all aspects of the game, a huge variety of potential experiences, good social features at launch, aiming that didn't feel like hot piss, and so on. We can talk all we want about specific mechanics and such and their negative impacts (and that's an important issue), but the larger issue is that the modern games don't FEEL like Halo anymore and that is a far more complex issue.

 

Halo really took a dive after they first mangled its core gameplay beyond recognition, and then stripped out nearly all of the remaining charm that engaged casual players. Just look at Halo 5. It had an ABYSMAL set of social experiences at launch, 4 "arena" modes (one of which is utter garbage), hideous art design, physically painful sound design, the worst campaign in the history of the series (that they had to significantly patch to make it viable for the speed run community), no BTB and then BTB made entirely of bad forge maps (because Battlefield wannabe Warzone replaced it), no infection at launch, some of the worst UI design I have ever seen in my life, a completely soulless and unsatisfying social rank system, "Arena" experience that manages to by simultaneously too sweaty and too casual for both extremes (universal settings are cancer), no LAN support, no split-screen, an OK at best file browser almost a year after launch, and the list continues.

 

Not only does "modern Halo" not stand out from the crowd AT ALL as a result of copying trends regardless of their compatibility with the aesthetic of the classic Halo games (and 343's art direction), but the overarching experience, not unlike Halo 4 and yet arguable worse, completely fails to live up to Bungie's legacy. Say what you want, but I think you've misinterpreted Bungie's success. People didn't gravitate to Halo because it was constantly changing, Bungie had created such a unique and engaging experience to begin with that it literally took them 3 sequels of making the core gameplay worse to actually fuck it up and while they were doing that, the incredibly good and continually improving social experience they crafted carried them through. H3 may have had significant problems in terms of core gameplay, but the community experience that Bungie offered is why it was the favorite in the series for so many people. That environment was why competitive Halo was able to thrive.

 

You want to mention DOOM? Well, Doom 2016's single player campaign was a success because they focused, first and foremost, on making a game that looks, sounds, plays, and FEELS like a DOOM game, instead of relying on focus groups and industry trends to determine what they need to add to their game to make it relevant. They even scrapped the original version because it was too much like CoD, which I understand is the exact opposite of what happened with Halo 4. And its multiplayer failed for not committing to that vision. Doing your own thing IS offering a unique experience.

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Maybe my ability to discern isn't as refined as yours, but, I've been playing Halo since CE, and this still FEELS like Halo to me. Sure, things are different, and some things are definitely worse, but I've played Destiny, BF, CoD, CS:GO, Overwatch, and those all still feel different. When I play Halo 5, I still feel like I'm playing Halo. But that's just me.

 

You're welcome to that opinion. The current state and reputation of the Halo series would suggest that a lot of people don't feel that way.

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I'm sorry but I'm just not as bummed as you guys. 

  • The servers have been way better for me since the update in Cowfuck, IA
  • Finals got me excited for this game again
  • the updated maps are a net positive (I'm loving the camo on empire) and nothing seems egregious like I've come to expect from these previews
  • We have open LANs/Worlds coming up, and I'll be going to at least 1
  • Radar is at least acknowledged by 343

And while the hype is flowing for me I'm just gonna lay this out here: Halo 5 might be my favorite halo since 2 or 3 and I'm not even sure I like 3 better than it. I do like mechanics like thrust and stabilize and slide. I don't find them "clunky". In fact I barely notice doing them in game. 

 

:intensifies:

 

I'm really curious to see who comes out as the clear top team in these new team changes. I hate to say that I can't imagine them challenging nV or OG any more than TL did last season, so I'll just directly imply it  :kappa:

 

I'm with ya man.  Just don't feel like being bummed.  Grateful to those guys carrying the torch and improving the scene though.  

 

Also $3385 Brooklyn 1BR 1 Bath ...fuck I hate the off season ...and nyc

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Calling people ******* and saying "you suck" is not joking lol. It's just a toxic attitude and it's not conducive to growing our scene.

They can't even hear him but okay.
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SC2 2016
$3,677,612.87 From 172 Events
17.26% of Total Prize Money Awarded
 
Halo 2016
$2,947,974.23 From 16 Events
99.58% of Total Prize Money Awarded

 

Geographically SC2 obviously blows Halo out of the water in that it has scenes in Asia, EU and NA. Viewership despite being a 'dead game' it's been higher than Halo for most of the tournaments except the HWC.

 

Sure SC2 blows Halo out of the water in terms of prize money, but it was esports. SC2 was much bigger than it is now, and considering Blizzard has Hearthstone and Overwatch (plus HotS) to foster it's future is not very bright. SC2 is big in Asia but the EU and NA scenes are not what they were years ago. You can't honestly say SC2 is a top tier esport when the coverage isn't there. 

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