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CaptainCowboy

The only way to save Halo is bringing in someone besides 343

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I don't think I have to say much to defend the idea that at this point it is extremely clear 343 doesn't possess either the understanding, ability, and/or inclination to recreate classic Halo gameplay. And with Josh Holmes recent departure (who I thought seemed to be generally competent, despite some disagreements I had with him over particularly the issue of sprint), I have lost all hope 343 will ever be able to return Halo to its former throne. I see no possible way that we as fans of a true Halo experience will ever be able to convince the higher ups at 343 that a return to roots is what the franchise needs. If we haven't done it in the 5 years since 343 took over, it will never happen.

 

But that's not to say there are not other avenues. Recently I saw this petition:

 

https://www.change.org/p/microsoft-let-certain-affinity-work-on-halo-6-multiplayer

 

And at first I was as sceptical as you probably are right now. The people who worked on the hot garbage that was the DOOM multiplayer are the answer to bring back classic Halo? But the more I thought about, the more I begin to think this could actually work.

 

The strongest thing Certain Affinity has going for them is they are probably the only studio that Microsoft doesn't own but still trusts to work on Halo. Microsoft entrusted them with the biggest part of the MCC in Halo 2 Anniversary and personally I think they knocked it out of the park. Don't let 343's failings on the matchmaking side of things detract from the fact that H2A played really well. It's ridiculous to think Microsoft is just going to scrap 343 and Halo 6. It's also ridiculous to think Certain Affinity could take on the full development of a game the size and scope of a traditional Halo installment. But an idea I have read a lot on these forums and elsewhere is a that of a smaller scale, multiplayer only experience that harkens back to classic Halo. And that's exactly what Halo 2 Anniversary was.

 

But it's not like they actually created anything new, you say. They just gave us a slightly different Halo 2. I would agree, but at the very least it shows they respect Halo, which is more than you can say for 343. We don't need something so worried about being new that it deviates from what makes Halo Halo.

 

Like any Halo fan, I worship at the feet of Hardy Lebel. But here on TeamBeyond I sometimes see a lukewarm reaction to who I see as another face on the Mt Rushmore of Halo, that being the CEO of Certain Affinity, Max Hoberman. Halo 2 was not a happy accident any more than CE was. The man created Lockout and a number of other classic maps. I think it's safe to say he understands Halo and what's special about it. At the very least he understands what makes a good map, something 343 has been extremely lacking in. He was one of the only guys at Bungie that recognized the magic of CE and had to convince the higher ups there to even have arena style multiplayer during Halo 2's development cycle.

 

https://youtu.be/qQQbGq8TnR8?t=14m40s

 

Still not convinced and think Halo 2 was just a happy accident (just like I was before doing some more digging)?

 

Apparently, according to his company's page http://www.certainaffinity.com/company/ he was the online lead for Halo 3 and Bungie basically just implemented his vision after he left. And while sure it's annoying these days to see Halo 3 kiddies vote for ARs on Valhalla in the MCC, I think it's important to not have a retroactive knee jerk reaction and try to act like Halo 3 was some steaming pile like 4 or 5. Halo 3 was a good game. It was a Halo game. The beginning of the downfall (Halo:Reach) coinciding with Hoberman no longer being at Bungie is not a coincidence. 

 

If you still have reservations because of DOOM, recognize this one thing: for all its other issues, the game doesn't have sprint. Crazy no? I remember a certain 343 studio representative telling me modern shooters required sprint, no ifs ands or buts about it. The sad thing is, I'm not sure how many designers are left out there that understand how to make maps and gameplay that don't involve sprint, but I can promise you Hoberman is one. Strip away the loadouts and the random powerups and DOOM actually plays really well.

 

343 isn't going anywhere and I don't think its possible for us to affect change there. But I think it's very possible that together we can affect Microsoft to, at the very least, let someone else like Certain Affinity take a shot at something that plays like actual Halo. And with the way Hoberman is tweeting recently, it almost looks like Certain Affinity and Microsoft are testing the waters to see if there is any interest.

 

So get out there. Sign the petition. Tweet at Hoberman, Microsoft, 343 and whoever else. It's our time Halo Nation: Let's Make Halo Great Again.

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I wish he'd recognized the magic of Ce more...

 

Halo 2's maps aren't good, they just aren't anywhere near as awful as the ones that would come after Halo 2. 

 

 

I really hate the donut-without-elevation map design philosophy that Halo 2 inspired.  Sure Halo Ce had Wizard and Derelict but they were the only maps of that kind in the game.  Halo 2 had Foundation, Warlock, Midship, Sanctuary, Desolation...pretty much the majority of the 4v4 maps were made in that style.  It's just really unoriginal and uninteresting map design, and I groan every time I see a forger emulate those kinds of maps.  I don't mind it in small doses, but it really shouldn't be the standard you set for your map design.  Damnation, Prisoner,

, etc. are far more interesting and unique maps.

 

Then you mention Lockout, which is pretty much the very definition of hit-or-miss.  Some people love it for its stalemate-inducing gameplay, and some people hate it for the very same reason.

 

 

That said, Max Hoberman would make a good Halo developer relative to everyone that came after.  Provided he wasn't put on a leash by Microsoft. Even if he made a flawed Halo game at least it would be a Halo game, and not something that is Halo in name only like Halo 4 is.

 

As I said though, any developer is going to struggle if Microsoft is trying to control every aspect of the game's design.

 

 

 

VALVE! /s

 

I mean, Valve delivers a consistent experience with most of their franchises, Team Fortress aside.  They respect consistency as a principle.

They put gameplay above graphics and other nonsense as well.

They wouldn't be awful developers for the Halo franchise.

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If you still have reservations because of DOOM, recognize this one thing: for all its other issues, the game doesn't have sprint. Crazy no? I remember a certain 343 studio representative telling me modern shooters required sprint, no ifs ands or buts about it. The sad thing is, I'm not sure how many designers are left out there that understand how to make maps and gameplay that don't involve sprint, but I can promise you Hoberman is one. Strip away the loadouts and the random powerups and DOOM actually plays really well.

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Probably the worst reviewed MP game on Steam in recent history, nobody would play it if it didn't have DOOM on the cover. I dont want CA touching any franchise I play. I know they updated it and added ranked playlists but its not really classic DOOM or a classic arena shooter in any sense of the meaning. Although it is partly id's fault for probably deciding to add a fully functional MP mode as an afterthought and handing it over to CA and saying "here's your core game, do whatever you want with it". I highly doubt that the company that made Q3 Arena would say "ok that looks cool" when seeing the huge pile of shit that CA produced.

 

Its okay though, let this be a warning to id/Bethesda if they pull this shit with Quake they will see identical results with an exponentially larger backlash. Its up to them to prove it now, and they better bring their A game and then some if they want to regain the trust of the fans and their standing in the MP FPS community. 

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Eh, H2A played like trash. I would be ecstatic if we did get another developer, provided it was the right one, but there's probably a 0.01% chance of that happening right now.

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I wish he'd recognized the magic of Ce more...

 

Halo 2's maps aren't good, they just aren't anywhere near as awful as the ones that would come after Halo 2. 

 

 

I really hate the donut-without-elevation map design philosophy that Halo 2 inspired.  Sure Halo Ce had Wizard and Derelict but they were the only maps of that kind in the game.  Halo 2 had Foundation, Warlock, Midship, Sanctuary, Desolation...pretty much the majority of the 4v4 maps were made in that style.  It's just really unoriginal and uninteresting map design, and I groan every time I see a forger emulate those kinds of maps.  I don't mind it in small doses, but it really shouldn't be the standard you set for your map design.  Damnation, Prisoner,

, etc. are far more interesting and unique maps.

 

Then you mention Lockout, which is pretty much the very definition of hit-or-miss.  Some people love it for its stalemate-inducing gameplay, and some people hate it for the very same reason.

 

 

That said, Max Hoberman would make a good Halo developer relative to everyone that came after.  Provided he wasn't put on a leash by Microsoft. Even if he made a flawed Halo game at least it would be a Halo game, and not something that is Halo in name only like Halo 4 is.

 

As I said though, any developer is going to struggle if Microsoft is trying to control every aspect of the game's design.

 

 

 

 

I mean, Valve delivers a consistent experience with most of their franchises, Team Fortress aside.  They respect consistency as a principle.

They put gameplay above graphics and other nonsense as well.

They wouldn't be awful developers for the Halo franchise.

 

Valve doesn't' make games anymore so I don't think that would work out.

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I know how to fix Halo. Fire everyone at 343 Industries and start fresh by hiring as many individuals as possible who worked on Halo CE, Halo 2, Halo 3, and Halo Reach. Instruct them to make a Halo game true to the original formula. It's really that simple.

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I know how to fix Halo. Fire everyone at 343 Industries and start fresh by hiring as many individuals as possible who worked on Halo CE, Halo 2, Halo 3, and Halo Reach. Instruct them to make a Halo game true to the original formula. It's really that simple.

No thank you, I don't want bungie back.  :kappa:

 

Seriously though, I don't see the point in this thread.  painting a broad brush that all 300+ people at 343 are incompetent and need to go is a load of horseshit.

 

Some changes in leadership? Certainly!!

Rejigging of priorities? Yes please!

While a wholesale trashing of everybody to start over is an understandable desire given our frustrations of the past year, but its also misguided.

 

Che and Josh have left and Ske7ch has joined so that is already promising.  I am not disparaging Che or Josh, but I think that change in those positions is positive overall.  Making videogames takes the passion of an artist imo, and it seems like they both had lost that so i'm happy for them that they are moving onto things that they are more passionate about.  I think it could be a win-win.  Ske7ch was a great hire by 343 and is already doing a good job.  He is an industry veteran that helped to build the OG franchise, so I think  his opinion about what the community wants is going to carry a lot of weight.

 

Quinn and Ghost have been in here getting specific gametype feedback recently and being really constructive about it.

We know a fix for ghost melees is coming.  We know an improved spectator mode is coming.  We know they are well aware of and working on the other server issues.

 

I am frustrated too because it has taken an unacceptably long time to acknowledge, respond to and fix these escalating issues but it looks like something good is happening soon.  A wholesale change of developer is not the answer.

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No thank you, I don't want bungie back.  :kappa:

 

Seriously though, I don't see the point in this thread.  painting a broad brush that all 300+ people at 343 are incompetent and need to go is a load of horseshit.

 

Some changes in leadership? Certainly!!

Rejigging of priorities? Yes please!

While a wholesale trashing of everybody to start over is an understandable desire given our frustrations of the past year, but its also misguided.

 

Che and Josh have left and Ske7ch has joined so that is already promising.  I am not disparaging Che or Josh, but I think that change in those positions is positive overall.  Making videogames takes the passion of an artist imo, and it seems like they both had lost that so i'm happy for them that they are moving onto things that they are more passionate about.  I think it could be a win-win.  Ske7ch was a great hire by 343 and is already doing a good job.  He is an industry veteran that helped to build the OG franchise, so I think  his opinion about what the community wants is going to carry a lot of weight.

 

Quinn and Ghost have been in here getting specific gametype feedback recently and being really constructive about it.

We know a fix for ghost melees is coming.  We know an improved spectator mode is coming.  We know they are well aware of and working on the other server issues.

 

I am frustrated too because it has taken an unacceptably long time to acknowledge, respond to and fix these escalating issues but it looks like something good is happening soon.  A wholesale change of developer is not the answer.

The point of this thread is that 343 has done a horrible job with Halo and we need a new developer(duh). 6 years of nothing but garbage. Halo CEA, Halo 4, MCC, and Halo 5 have all been terrible. Thanks to 343's crappy Halo games, I'm forced to continue to play Halo Reach BTB to get my Halo fix in. 6 years of that, man. I have over 750,000 kills and I am ready to move on to a new Halo game, but 343 just can't seem to come even close to making a good or even decent Halo game. Every 343 employee should be fired as to show that Microsoft is serious about cleaning house and making Halo great again. "Something good is happening soon". I've been haring that bullshit for 6 years. Enough is enough.

 

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The point of this thread is that 343 has done a horrible job with Halo and we need a new developer(duh). 6 years of nothing but garbage. Halo CEA, Halo 4, MCC, and Halo 5 have all been terrible. Thanks to 343's crappy Halo games, I'm forced to continue to play Halo Reach BTB to get my Halo fix in. 6 years of that, man. I have over 750,000 kills and I am ready to move on to a new Halo game, but 343 just can't seem to come even close to making a good or even decent Halo game. Every 343 employee should be fired as to show that Microsoft is serious about cleaning house and making Halo great again. "Something good is happening soon". I've been haring that bullshit for 6 years. Enough is enough.

 

I already said why trashing the entire company is misguided.  No "DUH" required.  I understand the sentiment.  I understand the frustration.  I would rather stick a flaming pine cone up my ass than play Halo 4 again.  I could have a Phd in astrophysics if i was studying every timed I played "MCC: Lobby Simulator Edition" waiting for a game for months, and i would probably enjoy Halo 5 more if I didn't feel like i was having a stroke every time i tried to aim, but a whole-sale developer change is not the answer.

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Everytime I see posts like these I laugh. To put it bluntly, this has been discussed many times. Too many times.

Obviously not enough times as 343 still hasn't put out a decent Halo game, after having the franchise for 6 years now. Well, have fun with your stupid Halo novels.

 

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Obviously not enough times as 343 still hasn't put out a decent Halo game, after having the franchise for 6 years now. Well, have fun with your stupid Halo novels.

I believe they have. Its called Halo 5. And their novels are great. 

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still editing one sec 

 

Between this forum's unpastable quotes and Cloudflare thinking I'm a robot, its amazing I found a way to fix this post.

 

I wish he'd recognized the magic of Ce more...

 

Halo 2's maps aren't good, they just aren't anywhere near as awful as the ones that would come after Halo 2. 

 

 

I really hate the donut-without-elevation map design philosophy that Halo 2 inspired.  Sure Halo Ce had Wizard and Derelict but they were the only maps of that kind in the game.  Halo 2 had Foundation, Warlock, Midship, Sanctuary, Desolation...pretty much the majority of the 4v4 maps were made in that style.  It's just really unoriginal and uninteresting map design, and I groan every time I see a forger emulate those kinds of maps.  I don't mind it in small doses, but it really shouldn't be the standard you set for your map design.  Damnation, Prisoner, 

, etc. are far more interesting and unique maps.

 

Then you mention Lockout, which is pretty much the very definition of hit-or-miss.  Some people love it for its stalemate-inducing gameplay, and some people hate it for the very same reason.

 

 

 

Definitely agree. An edgy opinion perhaps, but Halo 2's maps are some of the worst in the series in terms of competitive during the Bungie era (Halo 4 is far more atrocious). Having one Midship-esque map designed for that kind of gameplay is fine, but that's pretty much all Halo 2 ever had to offer. CE, 3, and Reach all feature competitive maps with lots of verticality and an emphasis on power weapons, something Halo 2 lacks to an extreme degree.

 

 

 

I mean, Valve delivers a consistent experience with most of their franchises, Team Fortress aside.  They respect consistency as a principle.

They put gameplay above graphics and other nonsense as well.

They wouldn't be awful developers for the Halo franchise.

 

Any person on any forum who recognizes how mistreated TF is by the saviors of PC gaming (even if you're noting it as the exception, in this case) gets immediate applause from me. I don't play CS:GO or any other Valve title regularly, just TF2, so when people in these types of threads talk about how great Valve would be as a developer, I think of what they've done to TF2 and remain...unconvinced. Valve definitely has their strengths, and they're generally great developers, but they definitely come with their own unique set of problems.

 

Now, of course, I'd be happy to drop all of my reservations, values, and dollars if that means if this theoretical development means we get Halo on PC, even if it is just on Steam.

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I'm just waiting for Halo 6 to have wall running.

 

This franchise has been on the decline ever since Reach.  That was the garbage that started it all.

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I'm just waiting for Halo 6 to have wall running.

 

This franchise has been on the decline ever since Reach.  That was the garbage that started it all.

 

2 was the garbage. Bungie tried to do too much and ended up with a mess.

 

At least it was a functional mess. Launch day only had minor lag.

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yeah we want valve  :kappa:

 

 

 

ive been thinking of making the same kind of video for halo but this franchise is so far gone it won't even matter.

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343 can stay. The actual people need to be changed though.

 

I don't trust CA at all after Doom MP. Holy fuck, that was a literal joke.

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I don't trust CA at all after Doom MP. Holy fuck, that was a literal joke.

 

In their defense: at least it works and the art style doesn't give me instant cancer like 343i's games.

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343 can stay. The actual people need to be changed though.

 

I don't trust CA at all after Doom MP. Holy fuck, that was a literal joke.

all these people saying that CA should take control of halo make me cringe.

 

The coalition is better suited

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I felt like CA would have been a better fit for Halo that 343 given the influence some of their current employees have had on the better games in this franchise.

 

But their latest efforts don't inspire any confidence really. Reach was trash thanks to Bungie. H2A was trash thanks to CA. And H4 was garbage thanks to 343. DOOM MP is essentially the Halo 4 of DOOM. i honestly feel like H5 is better MP game than those other games I've mentioned.

 

The idea of uprooting the entire 343 staff and replacing them with another developer is pure silly and unnecessarily expensive and risky. There is already good talent at 343.they just need better leadership...preferably that if some series veterans from they ce-3 days.

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Probably the worst reviewed MP game on Steam in recent history, nobody would play it if it didn't have DOOM on the cover. I dont want CA touching any franchise I play. I know they updated it and added ranked playlists but its not really classic DOOM or a classic arena shooter in any sense of the meaning. Although it is partly id's fault for probably deciding to add a fully functional MP mode as an afterthought and handing it over to CA and saying "here's your core game, do whatever you want with it". I highly doubt that the company that made Q3 Arena would say "ok that looks cool" when seeing the huge pile of shit that CA produced.

 

Its okay though, let this be a warning to id/Bethesda if they pull this shit with Quake they will see identical results with an exponentially larger backlash. Its up to them to prove it now, and they better bring their A game and then some if they want to regain the trust of the fans and their standing in the MP FPS community. 

Not sure if you noticed but this is TeamBeyond not some Quake fan site. Halo is not a "classic arena shooter". Halo is Halo. People hated DOOM because it played like Halo (albeit with loadouts and random powerups as I pointed out).

 

 

I already said why trashing the entire company is misguided.  No "DUH" required.  I understand the sentiment.  I understand the frustration.  I would rather stick a flaming pine cone up my ass than play Halo 4 again.  I could have a Phd in astrophysics if i was studying every timed I played "MCC: Lobby Simulator Edition" waiting for a game for months, and i would probably enjoy Halo 5 more if I didn't feel like i was having a stroke every time i tried to aim, but a whole-sale developer change is not the answer.

Like I said, nor do I think a whole sale dev change is the answer. Halo 6 is already deep in the throes of production at this point. But I think a spinoff multiplayer only game would definitely be in Certain Affinity's wheelhouse.

 

 

I felt like CA would have been a better fit for Halo that 343 given the influence some of their current employees have had on the better games in this franchise.

 

But their latest efforts don't inspire any confidence really. Reach was trash thanks to Bungie. H2A was trash thanks to CA. And H4 was garbage thanks to 343. DOOM MP is essentially the Halo 4 of DOOM. i honestly feel like H5 is better MP game than those other games I've mentioned.

 

The idea of uprooting the entire 343 staff and replacing them with another developer is pure silly and unnecessarily expensive and risky. There is already good talent at 343.they just need better leadership...preferably that if some series veterans from they ce-3 days.

How was H2A trash? Forget all the failures of 343 in regards to the online experience, the gameplay of H2A is the closest thing we have had to the Halo formula since Halo 3. 

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