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The earth's perfect distance from the sun, the unique chemical properties of water, and the human brain are hardly comparable to unicorns and rainbow dust. How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable? What caused the Big Bang to occur?

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So what if I were to claim my magical unicorn fartduster creates life, not god. How would you refute it? Remember, if you do, the unicorn is just calling your name.

Also...earth is not a perfect distance from the sun. We swing a few million miles closer and further while doing the yearly orbit. Just because life spawns from this distance doesnt make it exactly "perfect". I assume your brain argument is that it's so complex, how can it spawn just out of life vs a higher being, well it can. Evolution is cool. Laws of nature, not sure what your point is there. Why would they have to change lol. Universe is orderly in terms of following basic laws of physics, but in terms of orderly like black holes and shit far from it. Everything else is looking like you're going to claim because we dont know, therefore god. God of the gaps we meet again.

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16 minutes ago, Cypress said:

dorito stains, hot pockets and mountain dew

More like Almond milk, grilled chicken and water

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My gawd u are a blow hard. 

Cringe factor just goes up w every post

 

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1 hour ago, RVG E Nomini said:

 

I don't want to get into this tbh because I'm exhausted, but a few things:

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They demonstrably create more stable and advanced societies where people have a high quality of life.

1. Why is creating a more advanced society preferable, and how is that defined? A theist's view would clear this up quite easily, 'We are created in God's image, therefore, have inherent value', therefore bettering the lives of humans is an intrinsically important endeavor. And "Bettering" can be easily defined. 

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To offer a different angle, why would endorsement from a higher power make anything intrinsically good? If it's because they're from a higher power then you're stuck because the higher power could demand anything and it would have to be considered good. Goodness becomes arbitrary at that point.

2. There are two answers to this that I can see.

One, it seems pretty reasonable to assume that the creator of the universe would have moral laws that have it work how intended. Engineers don't just make computers and leave, there must also be instructions, even if we are not smart enough to read them.

Two, the Euthyphro problem (basically what you presented) is strong against a general idea of "gods", but if we narrow it down to the God of Abrahamic religions (Which is most important*), it is not that convincing. It creates a false binary. Good is neither simply what God says, nor only what God likes, but is simply his nature. Assuming we were created in his likeness then, making righteous actions simply puts takes us back to our creator's nature, and therefore our purpose. 

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That's how you get male and female genital mutilation, honor killing, the penalty for apostasy, punishment of homosexual behavior (when awkwardly, that behavior is due to a biological dice roll and is present in more species than it isn't), abhorrent treatment of non-believers, stifling of important scientific research (ya'll remember Galileo...), etc. This doesn't even resolve the issue of which higher power should be acknowledged as you know very well that there's more than one on the menu on this planet.

3. Just because humans disagree about what God desires, does not mean that he neither has desires for us, nor that is unknowable. Objective morality could exist even if a large portion of the earth ignores it. Pretending like food does not exist or is not important, is not the answer to an overly complicated menu.

*I say most important because obviously, the west is a primarily Christian civilization, and has roots in the Jewish faith, and Islam is a very impactful religion on our society and the world in many ways, more so than Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.

PS.You seem like a thoughtful, and reasonable person, which is refreshing.

 
 
 
1 hour ago, legendaryshotz said:

 

ok show me why or give me evidence

 

What evidence would you accept? Do I need to take pictures of God or something? 

15 minutes ago, Cypress said:

dorito stains, hot pockets and mountain dew

I like all of those things.

 
 
 
10 minutes ago, legendaryshotz said:

God of the gaps we meet again.

Do you know other phrases? 

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Imagine drinking anything but tea in 2019.

Could not be me.

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49 minutes ago, gporter said:

Its easy to wonder why atheists would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that they don't believe even exists. It might be that the underlying reason they’re bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.

This isn't really an interesting or poignant line of thinking given that the history of humanity who has spent time trying to understand the world we're in have come from nearly every background imaginable, be it religious or non-religious, is so vast as to be uncountable. If you follow a deity, I'd like to know if you've ever taken the time to try and figure out why yours is the right one to follow over any of the others. I'm talking really tried to figure it out.

26 minutes ago, gporter said:

The earth's perfect distance from the sun, the unique chemical properties of water, and the human brain are hardly comparable to unicorns and rainbow dust. How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable? What caused the Big Bang to occur?

Those are great questions but the answer wouldn't satisfy you, it's that it would be much more surprising if we found ourselves living somewhere where it was impossible for us to live. If we required oxygen and had none but couldn't die, if we could survive complete ionization by insane temperature exposure, if we could defy any law of physics at will, these kinds of things would require extraordinary explanations. Physics, chemistry, and biology have come a long ways in explaining how nature works without finding anything that violates the natural order observed. Whether or not that is sufficient for you is not my call but know that I would struggle to invoke something more complex than anything we see that has never been seen to explain all of it, especially when that nature of that more complex thing is one of the most contentious topics throughout our species.

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What strikes me is, less of the complexity of the universe, although that is astounding as well, is the purpose that we seem to see in it. Like Paley's Teleological Argument. 

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@TheDood Not up to me if I know any more phrases, people just love to think that way. If it is indeed that than what choice do I have

17 minutes ago, RVG E Nomini said:

This isn't really an interesting or poignant line of thinking given that the history of humanity who has spent time trying to understand the world we're in have come from nearly every background imaginable, be it religious or non-religious, is so vast as to be uncountable. If you follow a deity, I'd like to know if you've ever taken the time to try and figure out why yours is the right one to follow over any of the others. I'm talking really tried to figure it out.

They do say the only difference between an atheist and a believer is that a believer discards the other 1000 gods and believes theirs meanwhile an atheist discards all 1001.

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42 minutes ago, TheDood said:

I don't want to get into this tbh because I'm exhausted, but a few things:

1. Why is creating a more advanced society preferable, and how is that defined? A theist's view would clear this up quite easily, 'We are created in God's image, therefore, have inherent value', therefore bettering the lives of humans is an intrinsically important endeavor. And "Bettering" can be easily defined. 

A more advanced society is preferable as the quality of life goes up for everyone. I would define it by the level of technology possessed by that society as well as its ideals, for example the founding fathers of the US writing a secular constitution. That document was innovative for its time and it's value is still strongly present today. Having a theistic view is fine but I believe it clashes with the idea of increasing quality of life, given that theism has proven largely incompatible not only within its own sphere, but outside of it. Freedom of and privacy from religion is of great value in this country and others. Also, your premise should require a huge standard of evidence on itself to impose it as a guiding principle for a society, but myself and many others don't agree that it has been met to any acceptable degree. It loses its value when by default it alienates a significant fraction of the population.

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2. There are two answers to this that I can see.

One, it seems pretty reasonable to assume that the creator of the universe would have moral laws that have it work how intended. Engineers don't just make computers and leave, there must also be instructions, even if we are not smart enough to read them.

But which instructions are the right ones and how do you know? The history of religious conflict on this earth tells someone like me that either the instructions are unclear or they aren't feasible.

 

Two, the Euthyphro problem (basically what you presented) is strong against a general idea of "gods", but if we narrow it down to the God of Abrahamic religions (Which is most important*), it is not that convincing. It creates a false binary. Good is neither simply what God says, nor only what God likes, but is simply his nature. Assuming we were created in his likeness then, making righteous actions simply puts takes us back to our creator's nature, and therefore our purpose.

Saying good is just god's nature doesn't resolve the issue for me at all because, as I pointed out, there are multiple things demanded by god and acted upon by mankind that I don't find to be good at all. Also, the Euthyphro problem is called a false dilemma by its opponents, but I don't think the argument is anywhere near concluded on that matter. You would have to explain to me how you know that good is god's nature. I mean how you really know. Not to sound stingy but I'm just not compelled by statements, I'm compelled by reasoning. Of course, it is packaged in that demand that you have to be able to explain to me how you know a god exists so unfortunately the stakes are higher than I expected this response to reach lol, sorry. I'm not trying to checkmate or stalemate the conversation.

 

3. Just because humans disagree about what God desires, does not mean that he neither has desires for us, nor that is unknowable. Objective morality could exist even if a large portion of the earth ignores it. Pretending like food does not exist or is not important, is not the answer to an overly complicated menu.

I will have to refer to the previous paragraph of my response to address this.

 

*I say most important because obviously, the west is a primarily Christian civilization, and has roots in the Jewish faith, and Islam is a very impactful religion on our society and the world in many ways, more so than Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.

This is true, but the massive division within each of those religions doesn't sit well with me as I'm of the opinion that if I wanted humanity to prosper under my instruction manual, I would leave no stone unturned and no room for misunderstanding. A daunting task, to be sure, but clearly the existing instruction manuals have created more despair and complexity than unity and peace throughout our global timeline. I'm not saying I'm better or know better than god, I'm trying to say that I don't understand how we're the product of a good-natured higher power with the ability to create universes.

 

PS.You seem like a thoughtful, and reasonable person, which is refreshing.

Thanks, you as well. When I was in my 20's I learned a lot of lessons on what is most important for these kinds of discussions: the mutual exchange of ideas.

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I need a tutorial on how to format posts on this forum. How did that get so whack when I used QUOTE and /QUOTE for everything?

@legendaryshotz They do say that and it is accurate.

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On Wednesday, May 01, 2019 at 8:23 AM, TheDood said:

The situation in Venezuela is pretty tragic.

America's sanctions have murdered 40,000 Venezuelans. Trump and Obama should be executed for crimes against humanity according to the Nuremberg Laws.

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5 hours ago, RVG E Nomini said:

While I disagree with a lot of the mainstream liberal agenda these days, this post seems like quite an overstatement. When you ignore the signal to noise ratio and have real conversations with liberals you'll realize there's a lot of common ground to be reached. We're in this country together whether you like it or not so the most important thing to do is not be dismissive. We got the president we needed to push the pendulum back towards the center because the left end of the political spectrum has been overplaying their hand way too aggressively. I agree that conservatism has some good ideals and I tend to align with a lot of them, but it has its faults as well such as a huge reliance on religion to organize society. Good ideas should be able to stand on their own merit and not require the endorsement of a higher power, which I do not acknowledge the existence of based on the use of logic, the very thing you stated conservatives have the most of. Keep in mind that the US was created to have the first secular constitution in order to avoid theological tyranny on its citizens. Also, rap and rock are both excellent. Change my mind.

I've actually cut off former friends for their liberal views. I cannot relate to and want nothing to do with democratic voters. I consider myself an extreme conservative, but I'm not really religious and not something I bring up and rarely discuss. I believe in God, within my soul, and leave it at that. I had an experience once that confirms my belief. Just because there are holes in a man made bible and no concrete proof of existence, does not mean God doesn't. It's a lot deeper than that and hard to comprehend unless you've had a personal experience like I have. I'm with Rick where I don't care for pushy religious people or pushy atheists.

 

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6 minutes ago, Niku said:

America's sanctions have murdered 40,000 Venezuelans. Trump and Obama should be executed for crimes against humanity according to the Nuremberg Laws.

Australia is murdering 2 million cats. Your leaders should be executed for this inhumane atrocity.

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54 minutes ago, Brad Pitt said:

I've actually cut off former friends for their liberal views. I cannot relate to and want nothing to do with democratic voters. I consider myself an extreme conservative, but I'm not really religious and not something I bring up and rarely discuss. I believe in God, within my soul, and leave it at that. I had an experience once that confirms my belief. Just because there are holes in a man made bible and no concrete proof of existence, does not mean God doesn't. It's a lot deeper than that and hard to comprehend unless you've had a personal experience like I have. I'm with Rick where I don't care for pushy religious people or pushy atheists.

 

I'm not religious, bible which is a basis of alot of peoples belief in god has clear holes, absolutely no proof.

I believe God in my soul because one time something happened that I think is either unexplianable or some sort of miracle.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Edit: Also, with this pushy atheist stuff. Has an atheist ever knocked on your door and wanted to talk some sense into you? Hell no. I can't count how many times in the past 5 years some religous dorks knocked on my door and wanted to convert people. That's pushy. There's a reason why it's called "bible thumping". Not people asking for proof on the internet on a forum and no one has an iota shread of evidence.

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48 minutes ago, Brad Pitt said:

Australia is murdering 2 million cats. Your leaders should be executed for this inhumane atrocity.

They are pests eating our native species you idiot.

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1 hour ago, RVG E Nomini said:

I need a tutorial on how to format posts on this forum. How did that get so whack when I used QUOTE and /QUOTE for everything?

@legendaryshotz They do say that and it is accurate.

I think you need to use multiquote, the + symbol. Unless you're trying to do something different then idk.

Another question. Guess I should have asked this during the philosophiical pivot. If god is all good, all knowing, and all powerful - how is it possible for a child to starve to death? If he is all 3 this scenario should not exist. He has to lack one of those 3, and if he does lack even one of these attributes how can he possibly exist?

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34 minutes ago, Niku said:

They are pests eating our native species you idiot.

Now you know how it feels to have unwanted pests destroying your country...

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6 hours ago, legendaryshotz said:

I think you need to use multiquote, the + symbol. Unless you're trying to do something different then idk.

Another question. Guess I should have asked this during the philosophiical pivot. If god is all good, all knowing, and all powerful - how is it possible for a child to starve to death? If he is all 3 this scenario should not exist. He has to lack one of those 3, and if he does lack even one of these attributes how can he possibly exist?

 If God created everything then he would have had to create good and evil. Philosophically speaking a Christian and atheist should both believe this life is meaningless. The first chapter of Ecclesiastes talks about everything being utterly meaningless. Its worth a read because it actually is good poetry from a secular perspective.

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@legendaryshotz You're trying to convince people who are so cemented in their beliefs that they are wrong by using common sense. You would think that common sense is a good way to get through to people but as you are seeing, it doesn't work for some. 

I too have friends that I've tried to talk some sense into but I've found it to be a waste of time. People's beliefs are a product of their upbringing and experiences. And as they get older, it becomes a bigger part of their identity. They don't want to face the fact that they may believe in the wrong ideals so they continue down that path. They try to reinforce that belief by listening to news outlets that support it. They don't want to hear the other side. 

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10 hours ago, RVG E Nomini said:

 

 
 
 
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A more advanced society is preferable as the quality of life goes up for everyone. I would define it by the level of technology possessed by that society as well as its ideals

I guess I was more wondering what your quality of life means. Is it just more people being happy (but of course people can find happiness in many self-destructing ways, or socially destructing ways). Or if you meant a more evolutionary view where all that matters is lifespan and reproduction? Both of those seem to have serious ramifications if taken to their logical conclusions.

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the founding fathers of the US writing a secular constitution. That document was innovative for its time and it's value is still strongly present today. Having a theistic view is fine but I believe it clashes with the idea of increasing quality of life, given that theism has proven largely incompatible not only within its own sphere, but outside of it. Freedom of and privacy from religion is of great value in this country and others.

I agree that Secular law is preferable in most matters. "Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasars and give to God what is God's" or in other words, obey secular law in matters of shared jurisdiction and day to day happenings, but acknowledge your soul is owed to a higher power outside of this world. The secular order is a blessing for Christianity as well. 

This is basically why Christianity does not have a version of sharia. 

I believe that a nation should be secular but its people should be mostly religious. "Our Constitution was made for a moral and religious people, and is inadequate to the government of any other". - John Adams

 
 
 
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  You would have to explain to me how you know that good is god's nature. I mean how you really know. Not to sound stingy but I'm just not compelled by statements, I'm compelled by reasoning. Of course, it is packaged in that demand that you have to be able to explain to me how you know a god exists so unfortunately the stakes are higher than I expected this response to reach lol, sorry. I'm not trying to checkmate or stalemate the conversation.

I guess that the best reason for assuming that good is simply God's nature is because it is the easiest way to get past the problem. Therefore if God does exist, and he does have moral standards for us, then it is the only reasonable assumption. In general, however, I will admit that this is where general philosophy seems to have run its course and a more specific theology is required to answer these questions. 

Beyond that, if God is truly infinitely powerful and infinitely good, it should be expected that we have serious problems comprehending Him in any way that does not require at least a little faith, beyond pure reason.

 
 
 
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8 hours ago, legendaryshotz said:

Another question. Guess I should have asked this during the philosophiical pivot. If god is all good, all knowing, and all powerful - how is it possible for a child to starve to death? If he is all 3 this scenario should not exist. He has to lack one of those 3, and if he does lack even one of these attributes how can he possibly exist?

You got me there. No theist has ever considered the problem of evil. 

1 hour ago, pharmassists said:

 If God created everything then he would have had to create good and evil. Philosophically speaking a Christian and atheist should both believe this life is meaningless. The first chapter of Ecclesiastes talks about everything being utterly meaningless. Its worth a read because it actually is good poetry from a secular perspective.

Meaningless, except a Christian, would acknowledge that some things have eternal value, and since we're not gnostic, we might as well make the best of it while we're here.

Tbh Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Job should all be read by Christians and Atheists alike. Since they are both good from a secular standpoint, and also provide good insight on the way the world is. Proverbs = how things tend to work (Good people get rewarded, bad people get punished). Ecclesiastes = how the world often is (the rain falls on the righteous and unrighteous all the same). And Job reminds us that bad things happening to good people is not always a punishment, and also that we can't always understand God's perspective of things. 

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I have spent the last three pages (and most of my short life more broadly), listening to the other side. 

 

Also, WHY DOES BEYOND KEEP ADDING RANDOM SPACES BEFORE EACH OF MY QUOTES WHAT AM I DOING WRONG

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9 hours ago, Niku said:

They are pests eating our native species you idiot.

Is this about to be the third war that Australia loses to animals? Emus, Dingos, Cats.... Getting interesting.

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