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14 minutes ago, pharmassists said:

It's an anecdote and I wouldn't think it appropriate to argue from. 

There are personal experiences that make me believe vs philosophical questions that I think are more relevant. The personal experience lead me to ask the questions I hadn't considered before hand.

What kind of philiosophical questions? If you don't mind me asking.

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35 minutes ago, RVG E Nomini said:

What kind of philiosophical questions? If you don't mind me asking.

Let's start with why is there something rather than nothing? 

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The only thing worse than pushy religious people are woke atheists.

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2 hours ago, pharmassists said:

It's an anecdote and I wouldn't think it appropriate to argue from. 

There are personal experiences that make me believe vs philosophical questions that I think are more relevant. The personal experience lead me to ask the questions I hadn't considered before hand.

Also when I say I don't believe in God of the Gaps I specifically mean I trust science over religious dogma

Please, do elaborate.

2nd bold is reassuring. 

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8 hours ago, Cypress said:

Precisely why shit posting is the only logical form of communication here.   

I should learn from this. 

11 hours ago, RVG E Nomini said:

I haven't debated religion in years because there's no thread on it here with any pulse. It's a shame because it's a fascinating topic.

And one of the most important. 

 
 
 
 
3
3 hours ago, pharmassists said:
 
 
 
 
3 hours ago, pharmassists said:

It's an anecdote and I wouldn't think it appropriate to argue from. 

There are personal experiences that make me believe vs philosophical questions that I think are more relevant. The personal experience lead me to ask the questions I hadn't considered before hand.

Also when I say I don't believe in God of the Gaps I specifically mean I trust science over religious dogma

Anecdotes are surprisingly powerful, and probably necessary if you wish to move from a general belief in "a god", to a specific, religious, relational, view of a personal God.

Unfortunately, as the saying goes "For a believer, no miracle is needed, for a nonbeliever, no miracle will suffice."

2 hours ago, pharmassists said:

Let's start with why is there something rather than nothing? 

Do you mean like Thomas Aquinas' 'Third Proof'? 

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2 hours ago, TheDood said:

I should learn from this. 

And one of the most important. 

Anecdotes are surprisingly powerful, and probably necessary if you wish to move from a general belief in "a god", to a specific, religious, relational, view of a personal God.

Unfortunately, as the saying goes "For a believer, no miracle is needed, for a nonbeliever, no miracle will suffice."

Do you mean like Thomas Aquinas' 'Third Proof'? 

"For a believer, evidence is not important, for a nonbeliever, they ask for 1 piece of evidence over and over and instead people start pivoting to philosophical arguments"

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10 hours ago, pharmassists said:

The philosophical question is not how it happened , it's why it happened. Because nothing needs to happen. 

I don't believe in God of the gaps

I meeeean, for the why aspect you're still entertaining god of the gaps fallacy. You don't know why it happened, and since you don't you can't fathom it happening potentially for some scientific phenomena that would be in line with some other previous discoveries going down the chain instead are entertaining ideas that maybe god. RVG already said this but I think it's important to shed a little more light on that.

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5 hours ago, pharmassists said:

Let's start with why is there something rather than nothing? 

Not really sure. There are a lot of ideas in physics surrounding things like symmetry breaking of quantum fields that could have caused inflation and the subsequent big bang. These ideas involve the higgs field which was predicted in the 60s and discovered in 2012 to have almost all of the expected properties (higgs particles created in the field decay 1.5x faster than we thought they would). The question is begged as to where these fields come from and to that, nobody knows. Inflation predicts a lot of things we've observed (flatness, no magnetic monopoles, cosmic horizon, etc) but also something we haven't, the multiverse, but it could still be wrong. So, that question doesn't have a good answer right now and maybe never will.

What's the next philosophical question?

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8 hours ago, RVG E Nomini said:

People change their minds all the time so it's worth conversing about. Don't discount the people who read but don't post, I've had many responses and talks with people who don't post but appreciate the dialogue. Probably the main issue you've encountered is that most people suck at talking with and to others instead of at and over others.

 

 

This.

Your target should always be the unaligned observer. Much like a lawyer in a courtroom, your goal should be to convince the jury not the other lawyer.

Shitposting can also be effective for the simple fact that people find humor attractive.

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5 hours ago, RVG E Nomini said:

Not really sure. There are a lot of ideas in physics surrounding things like symmetry breaking of quantum fields that could have caused inflation and the subsequent big bang. These ideas involve the higgs field which was predicted in the 60s and discovered in 2012 to have almost all of the expected properties (higgs particles created in the field decay 1.5x faster than we thought they would). The question is begged as to where these fields come from and to that, nobody knows. Inflation predicts a lot of things we've observed (flatness, no magnetic monopoles, cosmic horizon, etc) but also something we haven't, the multiverse, but it could still be wrong. So, that question doesn't have a good answer right now and maybe never will.

What's the next philosophical question?

I think the multiverse theory is just hand waving at best and goal post moving at worse.

We still can't explain how 0 particles became trillions of particles without believing in something outside of the aquarium. That's where people are going with the multiverse theory. But it still doesn't answer why, and it puts the science in a place that can't possibly be observed. The answer to the question requires faith from atheists. 

 

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5 hours ago, legendaryshotz said:

I meeeean, for the why aspect you're still entertaining god of the gaps fallacy. You don't know why it happened, and since you don't you can't fathom it happening potentially for some scientific phenomena that would be in line with some other previous discoveries going down the chain instead are entertaining ideas that maybe god. RVG already said this but I think it's important to shed a little more light on that.

I'm not interested in the scientific view and that's the problem with atheist. Too metaphysical. Science could tell me from beginning to the end how one thing leads to another and it still doesn't tell me why, because nothing that happened had to happen. 

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6 hours ago, RVG E Nomini said:

Not really sure. There are a lot of ideas in physics surrounding things like symmetry breaking of quantum fields that could have caused inflation and the subsequent big bang. These ideas involve the higgs field which was predicted in the 60s and discovered in 2012 to have almost all of the expected properties (higgs particles created in the field decay 1.5x faster than we thought they would). The question is begged as to where these fields come from and to that, nobody knows. Inflation predicts a lot of things we've observed (flatness, no magnetic monopoles, cosmic horizon, etc) but also something we haven't, the multiverse, but it could still be wrong. So, that question doesn't have a good answer right now and maybe never will.

What's the next philosophical question?

For my second question. Our universe is governed by the many laws of physics.

1. Why do they exist? 

2. Why are we able to understand them?

 

 

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11 hours ago, legendaryshotz said:

Please, do elaborate.

2nd bold is reassuring. 

Let's be honest, my personal experiences doesn't mean shit to you, and it shouldn't.

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2 hours ago, pharmassists said:

I'm not interested in the scientific view and that's the problem with atheist. Too metaphysical. Science could tell me from beginning to the end how one thing leads to another and it still doesn't tell me why, because nothing that happened had to happen. 

Science is the best we got to eventually figure out why. It could be that all of this shit just doesn’t matter. There’s no reason to life or anything it’s just a net result of the universe happening. It could be we are in a simulation. Or the Hail Mary of some diety existing. But currently what we know there hasn’t been a single tiny piece of evidence that shows that we should believe it something that is divine of our universe, at least in a sense of an actual god. There could be multiverses. But to say something is just too metaphysical for you when it’s the only thing that has potential to actually find out is a little absurd. Not sure *why* you don’t want to pursue that. 

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10 minutes ago, legendaryshotz said:

Science is the best we got to eventually figure out why. It could be that all of this shit just doesn’t matter. There’s no reason to life or anything it’s just a net result of the universe happening. It could be we are in a simulation. Or the Hail Mary of some diety existing. But currently what we know there hasn’t been a single tiny piece of evidence that shows that we should believe it something that is divine of our universe, at least in a sense of an actual god. There could be multiverses. But to say something is just too metaphysical for you when it’s the only thing that has potential to actually find out is a little absurd. Not sure *why* you don’t want to pursue that. 

I've definitely considered the simulation aspect but everything I've read seemed like pseudo-science.

Have you considered that there could be a spiritual world, not strictly talking in the religious sense. Think of it like a different dimension that exists on top of this one. I've heard reports of people doing psychedelics and seeing the same things at the same time.

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The idea that we are living in a simulation is literally more insane than believing in God.  

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1 hour ago, TheDood said:

The idea that we are living in a simulation is literally more insane than believing in God.  

Idk they are both equally possible but completely untestable.

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4 hours ago, pharmassists said:

I think the multiverse theory is just hand waving at best and goal post moving at worse.

We still can't explain how 0 particles became trillions of particles without believing in something outside of the aquarium. That's where people are going with the multiverse theory. But it still doesn't answer why, and it puts the science in a place that can't possibly be observed. The answer to the question requires faith from atheists. 

 

How is it hand-waving and goal post moving? It is what the inflation model literally predicts, as in it's an implication of the only solution we've found to multiple problems in cosmology. These things are written out in mathematics so it's not like somebody wanted to build the multiverse into it, it comes naturally out of the solutions. But still, I think my wording went completely over your head and it's disappointing, because I said that the model could easily be wrong and everyone in physics operates with that same notion because we demand evidence through empirical observation. Nobody has concluded that there is a multiverse just because this or that model demands one, we say, "that's an interesting result and we need to figure out how seriously it's worth taking," then it may or may not join the queue of experiments that are important. There's no belief in anything here because nobody claims to have found the final answer.

Your last series of statements are pretty outlandish based on my initial post. I included the fact that inflation could be wrong and the model will need some tweaking so that it doesn't predict a multiverse, as well as the fact that we don't actually know the answer to the question and physicists don't claim to. Your closing sentiment about faith makes absolutely no sense in this context. Science isn't exclusively for or by atheists. I know plenty of physicists who are christian, muslim, mormon, etc. Also, you don't know what can or can't possibly be observed, nobody does. We know what we can't see right now but that doesn't make anything permanently unseeable.

I don't understand your attempt to ascribe faith to atheists, it sounds like you're trying to justify something about yourself more than you're actually trying to be objective, as it hasn't been established that a multiverse exists and I'm positive anyone you talked to would agree with that statement. The ones who don't most likely are idiots or least likely are a small bunch of physicists I'm unaware of who found an actual answer and are keeping it under wraps.

4 hours ago, pharmassists said:

For my second question. Our universe is governed by the many laws of physics.

1. Why do they exist? 

2. Why are we able to understand them?

 

 

1. Nobody knows, much like the first question. 

2. Because they enabled our existence and we have brains that can ask questions and come up with ways to answer them.

These answers are more terse than my last one but hopefully they're sufficient. If not then please let me know.

Question 3?

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26 minutes ago, RVG E Nomini said:

How is it hand-waving and goal post moving? It is what the inflation model literally predicts, as in it's an implication of the only solution we've found to multiple problems in cosmology. These things are written out in mathematics so it's not like somebody wanted to build the multiverse into it, it comes naturally out of the solutions. But still, I think my wording went completely over your head and it's disappointing, because I said that the model could easily be wrong and everyone in physics operates with that same notion because we demand evidence through empirical observation. Nobody has concluded that there is a multiverse just because this or that model demands one, we say, "that's an interesting result and we need to figure out how seriously it's worth taking," then it may or may not join the queue of experiments that are important. There's no belief in anything here because nobody claims to have found the final answer.

Your last series of statements are pretty outlandish based on my initial post. I included the fact that inflation could be wrong and the model will need some tweaking so that it doesn't predict a multiverse, as well as the fact that we don't actually know the answer to the question and physicists don't claim to. Your closing sentiment about faith makes absolutely no sense in this context. Science isn't exclusively for or by atheists. I know plenty of physicists who are christian, muslim, mormon, etc. Also, you don't know what can or can't possibly be observed, nobody does. We know what we can't see right now but that doesn't make anything permanently unseeable.

I don't understand your attempt to ascribe faith to atheists, it sounds like you're trying to justify something about yourself more than you're actually trying to be objective, as it hasn't been established that a multiverse exists and I'm positive anyone you talked to would agree with that statement. The ones who don't most likely are idiots or least likely are a small bunch of physicists I'm unaware of who found an actual answer and are keeping it under wraps.

1. Nobody knows, much like the first question. 

2. Because they enabled our existence and we have brains that can ask questions and come up with ways to answer them.

These answers are more terse than my last one but hopefully they're sufficient. If not then please let me know.

Question 3?

I'm definitely not a practicing scientist so forgive me, I didn't know there were mathematical models that predict a multiverse. That's fascinating and something I would like to read up on.  I was under the impression that the multiverse was the only way that science could explain the energy and matter needed to bring this universe into existence. 

As for the faith comment, I don't mean it in a derogatory way, if it came off like that I'm sorry. It seems like some scientist are looking for answers more than trying to believe an ideology. I should be more careful with my assumptions.

You're response to part 2, I'm saying don't you find it peculiar that the universe itself is logical in the sense that advanced monkeys can figure out it's secrets? Math itself is a philosophical anomaly to me.

Last question I have isn't a question as much as an observation. Numerous civilizations continents apart used drugs or rituals to experience the afterlife or the spiritual world. It's interesting that they have similar experiences. The Samaritans have a carving that shows our solar system before people could possibly know the planets and their order. When people did these rituals they would describe flying through the heavens. Do you think there is a spiritual world or at least a dimension outside of the physical world? (Sorry that was rambling not sure how to organize my thoughts on this).

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28 minutes ago, pharmassists said:

I'm definitely not a practicing scientist so forgive me, I didn't know there were mathematical models that predict a multiverse. That's fascinating and something I would like to read up on.  I was under the impression that the multiverse was the only way that science could explain the energy and matter needed to bring this universe into existence. 

As for the faith comment, I don't mean it in a derogatory way, if it came off like that I'm sorry. It seems like some scientist are looking for answers more than trying to believe an ideology. I should be more careful with my assumptions.

You're response to part 2, I'm saying don't you find it peculiar that the universe itself is logical in the sense that advanced monkeys can figure out it's secrets? Math itself is a philosophical anomaly to me.

Last question I have isn't a question as much as an observation. Numerous civilizations continents apart used drugs or rituals to experience the afterlife or the spiritual world. It's interesting that they have similar experiences. The Samaritans have a carving that shows our solar system before people could possibly know the planets and their order. When people did these rituals they would describe flying through the heavens. Do you think there is a spiritual world or at least a dimension outside of the physical world? (Sorry that was rambling not sure how to organize my thoughts on this).

Yeah mathematics is the language of physics, so pretty much every theory, law, or hypothesis are written in math. There are models that don't predict a multiverse but they tend to break down in other areas. For whatever reason, the best models seem to have a multiverse pop out of them. I don't work in the field of cosmology so I'm not up to date on everything, that's just the last I saw from it.

Many scientists have ideologies but those go out the window in the laboratory, because your results get publicly scrutinized and it would be bad for your reputation if you somehow always found results that fit your framework of belief. I say that mostly to talk down to all the youtube "physicists" lol.

It's hard for me to find peculiar when it's all I know, it is amazing though. I can get an adrenaline rush easily from snapping out of regular thought and thinking about the fact that we're here now at this time talking about this stuff, and on and on. In the picture of a 14 billion year old universe with hundreds of billions of galaxies, many times more stars, and many times more planets, knowing what chemistry can do given the right conditions because it had to have happened here on earth, how biology had to evolve to get to us, yeah there's a lot in that package that can occupy your mind for a long time. Math is wild too and I know some ideas in particle physics that would make you want to drop everything you're doing and do nothing but geometry for the rest of your life, look up Garrett Lisi on youtube.

The Sumerians didn't carve our solar system, they carved our bright sun with dimmer bodies around it in no particular arrangement, probably just stars from the night sky (or planets, which they didn't know were planets but are still observable). Psychedelics are really interesting and challenging, for example if you take enough acid, you'll wonder which alternate reality you ended up after it calms down. DMT, psilocybin, mescaline, etc. do offer incredible incredible experiences to users, but it's difficult to determine which parts are actually anything beyond just a hallucination. Why the hallucinations can be what they are is beyond me. I have no idea why throwing some serotonin analogues into your bloodstream can take you to the incredible places it does. Even just a flood of serotonin itself can cause you to smell color, feel sound, and love people more than you knew you could, how you begin to explain why your baseline levels are what they are is difficult.

I'm perfectly happy knowing that there are things I don't know, science won't be as interesting when it's done.

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@RVG E Nomini

I’d love to learn more about these multiverse theories and specifically how they are found through mathematical models.   What i’d also like to know even more about is:

1.  Do liberals occupy any planets within these theoretical multiverses?

2. If Q1 answer is a no, how do we access said multiverses?

thanks in advance.  

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1 hour ago, Cypress said:

 

@RVG E Nomini

I’d love to learn more about these multiverse theories and specifically how they are found through mathematical models.   What i’d also like to know even more about is:

1.  Do liberals occupy any planets within these theoretical multiverses?

2. If Q1 answer is a no, how do we access said multiverses?

thanks in advance.  

If the other universes created this one, there is no way liberals are there.

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2 hours ago, RVG E Nomini said:

Yeah mathematics is the language of physics, so pretty much every theory, law, or hypothesis are written in math. There are models that don't predict a multiverse but they tend to break down in other areas. For whatever reason, the best models seem to have a multiverse pop out of them. I don't work in the field of cosmology so I'm not up to date on everything, that's just the last I saw from it.

Many scientists have ideologies but those go out the window in the laboratory, because your results get publicly scrutinized and it would be bad for your reputation if you somehow always found results that fit your framework of belief. I say that mostly to talk down to all the youtube "physicists" lol.

It's hard for me to find peculiar when it's all I know, it is amazing though. I can get an adrenaline rush easily from snapping out of regular thought and thinking about the fact that we're here now at this time talking about this stuff, and on and on. In the picture of a 14 billion year old universe with hundreds of billions of galaxies, many times more stars, and many times more planets, knowing what chemistry can do given the right conditions because it had to have happened here on earth, how biology had to evolve to get to us, yeah there's a lot in that package that can occupy your mind for a long time. Math is wild too and I know some ideas in particle physics that would make you want to drop everything you're doing and do nothing but geometry for the rest of your life, look up Garrett Lisi on youtube.

The Sumerians didn't carve our solar system, they carved our bright sun with dimmer bodies around it in no particular arrangement, probably just stars from the night sky (or planets, which they didn't know were planets but are still observable). Psychedelics are really interesting and challenging, for example if you take enough acid, you'll wonder which alternate reality you ended up after it calms down. DMT, psilocybin, mescaline, etc. do offer incredible incredible experiences to users, but it's difficult to determine which parts are actually anything beyond just a hallucination. Why the hallucinations can be what they are is beyond me. I have no idea why throwing some serotonin analogues into your bloodstream can take you to the incredible places it does. Even just a flood of serotonin itself can cause you to smell color, feel sound, and love people more than you knew you could, how you begin to explain why your baseline levels are what they are is difficult.

I'm perfectly happy knowing that there are things I don't know, science won't be as interesting when it's done.

On the topic of astronomy, what do you think about the taurid media stream? I watched some guy on Rogan who thinks it's a threat and is responsible for destroying old world civilizations 

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2 hours ago, RVG E Nomini said:

I know some ideas in particle physics that would make you want to drop everything you're doing and do nothing but geometry for the rest of your life, look up Garrett Lisi on youtube.

 

If anything exists that could entice me to study geometry for longer than the length of high school, I would know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God exists.

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9 hours ago, pharmassists said:

I've definitely considered the simulation aspect but everything I've read seemed like pseudo-science.

Have you considered that there could be a spiritual world, not strictly talking in the religious sense. Think of it like a different dimension that exists on top of this one. I've heard reports of people doing psychedelics and seeing the same things at the same time.

Shared hallucinations are laregely nonsense. Imagine you were sober and looked at something trippy and note it. Now if you dose with someone and looked at something trippy you would "see" the same thing with the added layer of the drugs effect. In my near 1000 times tripping I've never shared a hallucinations or heard an actual story of shared hallucinations. 

 

That said, LSD, shrooms, 2c-e/i/b, 5-MeO-DMT, DMT(obviously the most), salvia(I guess) and PCP definitely led me to believe in the possibility of a "spiritual world" or something of the sort. To experience something so real, sometimes things that feel more real than the things in your everyday life, makes you wonder if this is it. Whether its before this life, parallel, after or wherever relative to us I dunno, but after those experiences it feels like it can't be discounted. 

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