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Alexander

Halo 1: Play in 480p - Lagless

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I would have to imagine that having an Xbox component cable and an LCD with YPbPr input and "game mode" would have to be the best/easiest solution at this point. Though the prospect of playing my Xbox in RGB mode is kind of alluring, I'm not sure I'd want to jerry-rig a VGA cable like that, too worried about ghosting. The sync-on-green thing is interesting, didn't know that. 

 

I think I'd like a copy of that Frosty boot disc, though, just for the hell of it. Will it work with UnleashX? 

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@@Cursed Lemon, Ghosting wouldn't have anything to do with the cable.  There should be no problem at all if you follow the schematic and solder everything properly.  People make these all the time for xbox mame arcade cabinets.  The guy in this link made one that even works on monitors that do not support sync on green.

 

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=119841.0

 

He made it so it all fits in a nice enclosure too.

 

BTW, I don't think the frosty's vga softmod supports v1.6 xboxes.  I'd go with SID5.  Slayers might do it too but I've never used it.

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I would have to imagine that having an Xbox component cable and an LCD with YPbPr input and "game mode" would have to be the best/easiest solution at this point.

 

The problem is that the performance would depend on the performance of the YPbPr to digital conversion unit within the LCD screen. So you would need to find a test of this for the exact LCD that you intend to purchase.

 

This point highlights a more general problem:

It is very important to be aware of the fact that most monitors have built in signal processing and converters. A VGA signal is, for instance, not a fully digital signal like HDMI/DVI and needs some post-processing in order to be displayed. YPbPr is analog and requires further conversion. And modern TVs even take digital signals from HDMI/DVI cabels and post-process them to "improve" the imagery (but this can usually be turned off by setting the TV/monitor in "game mode").

 

It is therefore often wise to rely on freestanding converters that we know the performance of (that have been tested). Such as the Avermedia/Elgato device or the Wii2HDMI for the Wii if you want to end up with a HDMI signal that can be used with any modern LCD monitor (but preferably a lagless one). There are likely other lagless (i.e. less than 1 frame of lag) HDMI convertors out there too.

 

For YPbPr I am not so sure what is good, but there are apparently lagless (as defined above) external adapters that convert to VGA: https://smashboards.com/threads/work-in-progress-perfect-setups-tv-monitor-console-capture-device.355292/. However, this requires that you pick a monitor that does not process the VGA signal. This will typically mean finding an old, clunky PC monitor.

 

On the issue of cost:

Many reject the Elgato/lagless LCD monitor option as "too costly". I see the point that it is a costly setup if you are purchasing all in one go, and storing it your attic for use only during H1 LANs. However, it is important to remember that the Elgato and the monitor could also be put to use with your computer.

 

For me, who is nevertheless going to buy a decent monitor and a capture card, the cost of the Elgato setup is arguably 0. And I purchased the monitor and capture card separately, when I could afford them. Moreover, there is no extra equipment to store. It is also a very simple setup with parts that are readily available from retailers across the globe.

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The problem is that the performance would depend on the performance of the YPbPr to digital conversion unit within the LCD screen. So you would need to find a test of this for the exact LCD that you intend to purchase.

 

This point highlights a more general problem:

It is very important to be aware of the fact that most monitors have built in signal processing and converters. A VGA signal is, for instance, not a fully digital signal like HDMI/DVI and needs some post-processing in order to be displayed. YPbPr is analog and requires further conversion. And modern TVs even take digital signals from HDMI/DVI cabels and post-process them to "improve" the imagery (but this can usually be turned off by setting the TV/monitor in "game mode").

 

It is therefore often wise to rely on freestanding converters that we know the performance of (that have been tested). Such as the Avermedia/Elgato device or the Wii2HDMI for the Wii if you want to end up with a HDMI signal that can be used with any modern LCD monitor (but preferably a lagless one). There are likely other lagless (i.e. less than 1 frame of lag) HDMI convertors out there too.

 

For YPbPr I am not so sure what is good, but there are apparently lagless (as defined above) external adapters that convert to VGA: https://smashboards.com/threads/work-in-progress-perfect-setups-tv-monitor-console-capture-device.355292/. However, this requires that you pick a monitor that does not process the VGA signal. This will typically mean finding an old, clunky PC monitor.

 

On the issue of cost:

Many reject the Elgato/lagless LCD monitor option as "too costly". I see the point that it is a costly setup if you are purchasing all in one go, and storing it your attic for use only during H1 LANs. However, it is important to remember that the Elgato and the monitor could also be put to use with your computer.

 

For me, who is nevertheless going to buy a decent monitor and a capture card, the cost of the Elgato setup is arguably 0. And I purchased the monitor and capture card separately, when I could afford them. Moreover, there is no extra equipment to store. It is also a very simple setup with parts that are readily available from retailers across the globe.

The problem is you need more than one of each for lans.

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@@Cursed Lemon, Ghosting wouldn't have anything to do with the cable.

Ghosting has everything to do with the cable. lol That's why you don't ever buy cheap Chinese analog cables.

 

There should be no problem at all if you follow the schematic and solder everything properly.  People make these all the time for xbox mame arcade cabinets.  The guy in this link made one that even works on monitors that do not support sync on green.

 

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=119841.0

 

He made it so it all fits in a nice enclosure too.

 

BTW, I don't think the frosty's vga softmod supports v1.6 xboxes.  I'd go with SID5.  Slayers might do it too but I've never used it.

 

Good info. (not being sarcastic)

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The problem is that the performance would depend on the performance of the YPbPr to digital conversion unit within the LCD screen. So you would need to find a test of this for the exact LCD that you intend to purchase.

Sure, but we've been dealing with that issue for 10+ years now, I think it's just a fact of life.

 

A VGA signal is, for instance, not a fully digital signal like HDMI/DVI and needs some post-processing in order to be displayed. YPbPr is analog and requires further conversion.

I'm pretty sure anything that's transmitted over a VGA connector is analog, whether it's YPbPr or RGB.

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Another solution is to use an Elgao Game Capture HD or Avermedia LGP capture card, which will convert the Xbox's component (YPbPr) signal to HDMI in a practically lagless fashion. Then use any "lagless" monitor.

 

That is that the Super Smash Bros Melee players are using, and that game is much more sensitive to slight lag than Halo is.

 

Evidence:

- Original testing (w/Avermedia LGP)

- Follow-up by the same guy, confiming, inter alia, that the Elgato card has similar performance.

i have the avermedia extreme cap u3 which is 60fps record/stream in 480p. The delay on that is definitely noticeable and its advertised as lagless. Just saying.

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The Avermedia tested there is a different one. Avermedia produces a many different capture cards. Advertising is fluff, tests is what matters. And you should only buy products that have been tested by neutral parties with proper testing equipment.

 

The MIMO article above, with follow-up gives you some capture cards and screens to choose from. Another good, reputable source for screens is displaylag.com (to find the relative difference/delay compared to a CRT you need to subtract at least 8ms from the numbers given there).

 

 

To put the input lag numbers in perspective, btw, I just saw that displaylag has put up a new test page measuring the input lag of video games, i.e. the lag between a player action and the action on screen. In other words, how long do different games need to process the input and deliver the result as a new frame?

 

Halo: MCC (H1 and H2) is almost the fastest game with a ~85ms input lag (in reality about 75ms when you subtract the input lag of the screen). This puts some perspective on the claim that adding 1ms (less than a frame) delay has game-breaking effects.

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Has alex escaped the shackles of his family enough to lan again?

 

52928434.jpg

 

You interested in coming down? Lan on Friday nights usually. Are you on the Atlanta FB chat?

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Halo: MCC (H1 and H2) is almost the fastest game with a ~85ms input lag (in reality about 75ms when you subtract the input lag of the screen). This puts some perspective on the claim that adding 1ms (less than a frame) delay has game-breaking effects.

 

Found an site that talks about CRT vs LCD. It seems like the 1ms frame delay is not the problem. It has more to do with motion blur or "display persistence"

 

http://www.blurbusters.com/faq/60vs120vsLB/

 

This website is totally devoted to making LCD screens play like CRT screens. They said that motion blur (display persistence) adds 16ms or 2 frames of delay even if your screen has super fast refresh and low lag. 

 

So the advent of 3d gaming has come to the rescue, apparently it was nearly solved almost 2 years ago. Read the article and decide for yourself. It's a bit complicated to explain. There is a ton of other good stuff on that site. These guys are saying that the results of this tech makes LCDs nearly like CRT.

 

It seems the only way this helps our cause is if we get BenQ Z series monitors that support blur reduction. You can set the setting on your pc then connect og box with VGA and it will make the LCD screen refresh like a CRT. (If i'm understanding this correctly.)

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Ghosting has everything to do with the cable. lol That's why you don't ever buy cheap Chinese analog cables.

 

 

I was speaking in a sense if you try and connect it to an lcd monitor with a slow refresh rate.  You are correct in that you could get ghosting from the adapter.  But that would probably only happen if it is too close to coiled power cords cuz the adapter itself is so short.  Either that or the guy that soldered it did a crappy job.  But I don't think this is a common problem since the guys that make xbox mame arcade cabinets make the adapters themselves and don't seem to run into any problems.  I guess you could always add more shielding if it is an issue.

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I was speaking in a sense if you try and connect it to an lcd monitor with a slow refresh rate.  You are correct in that you could get ghosting from the adapter.  But that would probably only happen if it is too close to coiled power cords cuz the adapter itself is so short.  Either that or the guy that soldered it did a crappy job.  But I don't think this is a common problem since the guys that make xbox mame arcade cabinets make the adapters themselves and don't seem to run into any problems.  I guess you could always add more shielding if it is an issue.

 

Well, ghosting has different causes, one of them being an impedance mismatch between the source and the input load (which is technically called "ringing"). Not sure if cables made with shit cores (maybe ferrite) could change the cable capacitance or something like that, and cause the problem. 

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@Oby: There aren't any serious Melee tournaments/events where the games that matter are played on LCDs. All top level Melee is played on CRTs because the delay is noticeable and top players do not enjoy sacrificing the perfection of playing with a CRT. Also, I actually don't think that Smash is more susceptible to slight lag than Halo. On the surface it might seem that way, Melee requires a high degree of precision and many more inputs than Halo. However, I personally find it much harder to properly aim on at a target in Halo playing on an LCD with lag than I do executing combos correctly when playing Melee under the same circumstances.

 

The best way to play Halo in 480p is to grab an x2vga and a good CRT monitor and go to town. We use this beast at our LANs and it plays flawlessly. https://www.amazon.com/Sony-GDM-FW900-Widescreen-Trinitron-Monitor/dp/B00004YNSR

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My fist solution was to find 480p CRT tvs that don't post process the component signal

Could you explain this please? Why would the signal need to be processed? Are you talking about 4:3 standard def TVs or CRTs that support 720p+?

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@Mintograde

Yes that is a good one too. They link to each other a lot.

 

Could you explain this please? Why would the signal need to be processed? Are you talking about 4:3 standard def TVs or CRTs that support 720p+?

 
Pretty sure almost all CRT tvs that support 480p or higher also do image post-processing to make the image cleaner, sharper, more vibrant etc. But this causes extra input lag, as much as 30ms. I believe Dman can confirm this.

The only way to get a great image that is not processed/lagged is with a VGA CRT PC monitor.

The guys at blurbusters.com are convinced that the newer 3d monitors can be hacked to play like like a CRT. They have created software that tells the monitor to strobe the backlight on and off between each frame. This makes it behave more like a CRT similar to how they "flicker"
 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD5gjAs1A2s

 

When the flicker technology is turned off you can see the numbers ghosting even though this is a super fast monitor. When the flicker tech is activated almost all the motion blur is gone. I think this is what causes us to think that LCD are super laggy even when their input lag has been proven to be 1-2ms. 

 

The normal input lag test only considers a single frame-frame change, no fast/fluid movements. This tech is best for fast moving games...like Halo or other FPSs.

 

I updated original post with details on this.

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Pretty sure almost all CRT tvs that support 480p or higher also do image post-processing to make the image cleaner, sharper, more vibrant etc. But this causes extra input lag, as much as 30ms. I believe Dman can confirm this.

 

HDTVs have to scale up 480i/480p video so it fills out the screen.  So it's basically stretching a 480 pixel image to fit a 720/1080 pixel screen.  This obviously made standard definition video look horrible on HDTVs.  TV Manufacturer's attempted to fix this problem by using post-processing to make the image look better.  This issue had not been addressed yet on some early model HDTVs which is why those ones are lag free.

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52928434.jpg

 

You interested in coming down? Lan on Friday nights usually. Are you on the Atlanta FB chat?

I'm not in the FB chat, And yeah I'd like to make it down.

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Slightly off-topic but a lot of tech experts are in here... @@Devilman or anyone that could help me out...I asked stunt_man's discord but people aren't sure what would cause this.

When I hook up 3 Xboxes in an NHE setup one of the Xboxes displays a sync error. Says one or more of the Xboxes could not sync properly and forces that Xbox out of the game.

Copying from discord:

Tried split screen, that worked.
Tried onhost/offhost with two xboxes, they worked.
Like... all 3 work separately in a 2box setup but then when i try to do 3box it doesn't sync.
Oh and i tried changing the IP address and putting it back to DHCP that didn't work either.
Tried hosting on another xbox. But its a different xbox that has sync issues each time. its not isolated to one xbox.
You think maybe the switch/hub is assigning the same IP address to two of the xboxes or something?
 
 
EDIT: I just tried using my router instead of the switch. That did not solve the problem.
 
One more note: 1v1 NHE works on my arrangement. 2v2 does not. Don't have enough controllers to test 3v3 or 4v4

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@@VinnyMendoza, I would reload nhe on each xbox.  Clear the cache too.

 

That's weird that 1v1 works but not 2v2.  Reloading the game always clears up sync issues for me tho.  It should work for you too.

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The custom made VGA cable is definitely the way to go for best quality and least input lag. For screens, PC monitors with VGA connections are ideal. They usually have very little lag with the necessary upscaling. TVs very often have considerable lag when not used with their native resolution.

 

What about using an Xbox 360? I have an RGH modded 360 that can run the NHE and the 360 naturally supports HDMI. Is the emulated H1 on 360 inferior? Slowdowns or other issues? The NHE single player mode seems to work ok.

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@@VinnyMendoza, I would reload nhe on each xbox.  Clear the cache too.

 

That's weird that 1v1 works but not 2v2.  Reloading the game always clears up sync issues for me tho.  It should work for you too.

 

Thanks @@Devilman really appreciate the response. I will try that this week.

 

And I'll be sending a donation the team's way via the Halo1final site :) Thanks for all the work you've put into this.

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The custom made VGA cable is definitely the way to go for best quality and least input lag. For screens, PC monitors with VGA connections are ideal. They usually have very little lag with the necessary upscaling. TVs very often have considerable lag when not used with their native resolution.

 

What about using an Xbox 360? I have an RGH modded 360 that can run the NHE and the 360 naturally supports HDMI. Is the emulated H1 on 360 inferior? Slowdowns or other issues? The NHE single player mode seems to work ok.

 

Yes, we tried playing on 360s years ago when H1 was re-released. The emulator lags a lot. Probably not much for the casual player but it's pretty bad.

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@@VinnyMendoza, I would reload nhe on each xbox.  Clear the cache too.

 

That's weird that 1v1 works but not 2v2.  Reloading the game always clears up sync issues for me tho.  It should work for you too.

 

I had to reload all 3 Xboxes but it worked! Thanks

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