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CorporalWings0

Should sprint be included in Halo moving forward?

  

238 members have voted

  1. 1. Keep or remove sprint

    • Remove sprint
      199
    • Keep sprint
      39


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What sort of possibilities does clamber bring to map design, exactly? Making ledges a bit taller so you're forced into an animation?

 

Please don't say verticality. Damnation was a thing, you know.

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Halo 2's maps are pretty mediocre so that's not saying much. It's pretty sad that we haven't had any good developer maps since Halo 1. None of Halo 2's and Halo 5's maps come close to Halo 1 maps such as Chill Out, Damnation, and Prisoner. The only good maps in Halo 5 are community made forge maps and they don't even get utilized in matchmaking.

 

And yes Halo 5's Spartan Abilities do have a negative impact on map design, just ask forgers such as @@MultiLockOn

 

H1 maps are indeed the best, but also keep in mind that they're primarily played with 2v2. Prisoner, for example, is a clusterfuck in 4v4.

 

I wouldn't describe H2's maps as mediocre. Lockout and Sanctuary are safely in the best-maps-ever list. H2 on Warlock is better than H1 on Wizard. And then there's Midship, a map that played so well that we had to put 4 versions of it in every iteration of MLG settings thereafter, causing forgers to want to blow their brains out.

 

Plaza and Rig are great maps. Vertically layered layouts, good connectivity, predictable spawning, and a great use of core geometry to block sightlines without requiring too much random "cover". Easily superior to anything we had in H3, Reach, or, lol, H4.

 

 

Sebastian has plenty of forge experience and knowledge.

 

Glad to see at least one person remembers.  :simms: 

Kids these days ain't got no respect.

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Bolded parts are the tl;dr bits (even though its not that long)

 

What I noticed, is that the maps are not just elongated, but now favor lane design, much like more recent Call of Duty titles and Counter-Strike. The old maps were more like playgrounds, right? No matter where you were, you usually could find someone relatively quickly because of more open lines of sight. Would sprint and the Spartan Abilities be the culprit of the change in map design philosophy, or would it be the result of 343 designing for maximum competitiveness?

 

Also, what I noticed recently is that gameplay uniqueness leads to franchises that have a very healthy growth. Obviously Overwatch is an exception because of Blizzard's reputation, but other franchises shown this as well. I don't think I have to describe any popular franchise that you can think of, because they all brought something different to our TVs or PCs. Some franchises saw a slow growth, and others blew up on their first go, but one thing that connects them all is uniqueness, something that the original Halo brought to the FPS genre as a whole. What other game is as easily accessible to new players, yet still as in-depth as Halo was? Quake, Unreal, and Counter-Strike are much more in-depth than Halo, but high-level play is nearly impossible unless you're on a keyboard and mouse setup.

 

If this wasn't linked before, two Halo 2 developers (@MaxHoberman & @32nds)gave their thoughts about sprint in Halo 2 (and CE a little bit) in Twitter, by the way. The conversation branches off into different directions, so mobile would be a better way to view the whole thing. Here's the link

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What sort of possibilities does clamber bring to map design, exactly? Making ledges a bit taller so you're forced into an animation?

 

Please don't say verticality. Damnation was a thing, you know.

Uhh...verticality.   :tongue:

 

Obviously verticality has been possible in every Halo game, so in that sense it's nothing new.  However, Clamber makes verticality more accessible.  Where I once had to add a lift or a teleporter, or enlarge my map to incorporate ramps, I can now make height advantages accessible via Clamber.  It's more intuitive than teleporters.  It draws less attention than lifts.  It requires less space than ramps (this may seem trivial, but it's actually vitally important considering the range of the utility weapon in this game).  I'll also cite the old reliable 'risk vs reward'.  I think that tends to get overused, but there are ways to incorporate clamber opportunities that do pose legitimate risk/reward situations.  Of course, some of those situations can be implemented without clamber, but that doesn't mean there aren't situations where creating the opportunity for a clamber is preferable to duplicating the same situation with a lift (or other vertical movement option).

 

Clamber opportunities are best used in moderation, imo.  I think the overuse of them is what turns most people off to it (and in fact they seem forced into the Dev maps to a FAR greater extent than I would like).  I prefer that clamber places be implemented very strategically and minimally, but I think it's a positive addition to the game overall.

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How do we feel about clamber if it doesn't prevent you from shooting?

 

 

 

There is just no point in clamber. It is a meaningless addition that was added in order to have something "new" and "modern" that casual gamers supposedly expect. What does it add to the game form a competitive standpoint? Anything? Clamber is another great example of 343 trying to fix what wasn't broken. Simple as that. 

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Personally, I find that it's the combination of the Spartan abilities with the H5 weapon sandbox that frustrates me the most.  While there's pretty much nothing I like about the sandbox in this game, it's the starting weapon that makes things the most difficult.  If you take the Spartan Abilities and insert them into CE, my bet is that they're suddenly not so problematic.  Despite what you might think based upon this post, my preference would be to have all Spartan Abilities (and sprint) removed from the Halo franchise.  I feel they're a detriment to the game overall.  I just don't think they're quite as detrimental as most people are making them out to be.  There are other factors that are having a bigger impact on the game.

A stronger utility weapon would definitely make Halo 5's Spartan Abilities more tolerable. I wish that 343 would buff Halo 5's magnum so it can become a more ideal utility weapon but with 343's track record that's just a pipe dream.

 

I have some issues with clamber such as making jumps too accessible for my tastes and having to put your gun down to use it but I can tolerate it in isolation. My main issue is when you factor in the combination of all of the Spartan Abilities. The combination of all of the Spartan Abilities allows players to escape bad situations too easily for my tastes and makes the map flow feel random.

 
I understand that some people praise Halo 5's Spartan Abilities for all of the movement tech that they offer but IMO all of it just adds unnecessary complexity to the game that raises the skill floor. I rather have movement mechanics similar to what @@Gobias suggested over Halo 5's Spartan Abilites.
 

 

... Who the fuck is Sebastian?

IDK probably some noob that thinks that Halo 2's and Halo 5's maps are good. His forge maps are probably carbon copies of Lockout and Midship. Just before anybody gets triggered I just want to let you guys know that I'm just being facetious.
 
I'm not a part of the forging community and I don't use forgehub that often so please excuse my ignorance. I honestly had no clue that Sebastian was a forger and was knowledgeable about map design.

 

-Snip-

Well 2v2 is my favorite format to play Halo in so perhaps that's why I have so much of a bias against Halo maps post Halo 1. That being said I rather play 4v4 in Halo 1 over 4v4 in Halo 2 and Halo 5 even though the maps and spawn system in Halo 1 aren't suited for a 4v4 format because Halo 1's weapon sandbox makes those issues more tolerable for me.
 
IMO Lockout and Midship are infamous examples of mediocre maps that receive a ridiculous amount of undeserved praises from the Halo community. I honestly hope that your bias for Lockout and Midship have very little bearing on your forge maps because the ad-nauseam of Lockout and Midship carbon copy forge maps makes me want to vomit. Also I can't stand Wizard from Halo 1 or Warlock from Halo 2, there isn't that many maps that I can tolerate that have no power weapons on them.
 
My main issue with Halo 5's maps is that they have too much swiss cheese for my taste and Halo 5's Spartan Abilities just exacerbates the issue. I can admit that some of Halo 5's developer maps are better than some Halo maps post Halo 2 but I honestly feel like I'm splitting hairs at that point. 
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Maps like Midship are only going to hurt the pro scene, as ridiculous as that sounds. You wanna see the true difference of skill between pro teams? Stop throwing them in 2 base 2 tower maps and give them a map to play on that actually makes them think and move. It is possible to have the cycling of a 2's map in a 4v4 environment.

 

 

I hate the mechanic of clamber with everything in my soul but I can recognize some of its merits. Still, I'm of the opinion it hurts map design in more way than it helps, but that's likely because it's used in conjunction with a million other movement abilities in H5 to help people get around quickly.

 

The rest of the spartan abilities in the context of Halo 5 are dogshit and make designing a properly paced map such a burden.

 

Halo 2 maps were awful. I don't know if I'd place Halo 5s maps above 3's but I see where he's coming from. Halo 3 maps were all unique in concept, Halo 5's are cut and dry assembly line Pit children but whatever.. they're okay for 4s. Not really a knock on Bungie considering every map in 5 is handcrafted for 4's, Bungie always gave wiggle room

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Uhh...verticality.   :tongue:

 

Obviously verticality has been possible in every Halo game, so in that sense it's nothing new.  However, Clamber makes verticality more accessible.  Where I once had to add a lift or a teleporter, or enlarge my map to incorporate ramps, I can now make height advantages accessible via Clamber.  It's more intuitive than teleporters.  It draws less attention than lifts.  It requires less space than ramps (this may seem trivial, but it's actually vitally important considering the range of the utility weapon in this game).  I'll also cite the old reliable 'risk vs reward'.  I think that tends to get overused, but there are ways to incorporate clamber opportunities that do pose legitimate risk/reward situations.  Of course, some of those situations can be implemented without clamber, but that doesn't mean there aren't situations where creating the opportunity for a clamber is preferable to duplicating the same situation with a lift (or other vertical movement option).

 

Clamber opportunities are best used in moderation, imo.  I think the overuse of them is what turns most people off to it (and in fact they seem forced into the Dev maps to a FAR greater extent than I would like).  I prefer that clamber places be implemented very strategically and minimally, but I think it's a positive addition to the game overall.

 

The thing is clamber cannot be moderated imo, it takes zero skill, it has no risk-reward, and it makes any map with vertically for the lack of a better word a cluster-fuck. You cant moderate the players ability to climb on top of geometry. Wall-jump meanwhile can be moderated,it has risk-reward, it takes skill to execute, it can be chained in with thrust for greater movement depth, and its a skill-jump not a fkn animation lol. Clamber was built for military games where there is no such thing as a skill-jump and you cant jump 2 feet off the ground, you do not have the same problem with map design because nobody is climbing like spiderman all over the map like in H5 you cant jump.Wall-jump is an Arena shooter mechanic that enhances 3D map design. There is a huge difference between the two. I want Halo:Combat Evolved, not Halo:Animations evolved.

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What sort of possibilities does clamber bring to map design, exactly? Making ledges a bit taller so you're forced into an animation?

 

Please don't say verticality. Damnation was a thing, you know.

If people played damnation in halo 5 with clamber on a 1:1 remake....

 

I don't know what they are doing anymore.

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Yes, but Chess is not the only game in the world. Risk vs. reward is exactly how you play, for instance, poker. Uncertainty due to true randomness is a bad gameplay element in my opinion, but uncertainty due to unknown opponent strategy is more interesting.

 

Imagine a game like Chess where you both decide on a move simultaneously, and then reveal your selection at the same time. You would need some rules to resolve captures, but this would definitely be an interesting game. (EDIT: Apparently this is already a thing. Check it out: http://www.hexenspiel.de/engl/synchronous-chess/)

 

Part of what makes Halo cool is that it is not turn-based. You have to simultaneously make moves and predict moves. You don't KNOW that somebody is coming around the corner, but you can reason that they might. I would describe pre-nading a cutoff as a risk vs. reward proposition, because you are potentially wasting a grenade and betraying your own position based on the potential reward of dropping their shields. It's not as simple as "all risk vs. reward elements are bad".

 

Correct, Halo is not a turn based game, so when the two pieces move into the same spot at the same time, it is decided by skill who wins and dies based off strategy. But the abilities in this game allow players to escape encounters they should be in. They sprint away, thrust behind a wall, or just climb over the enemies head to escape. You mention predictability, yet all the abilities add nothing but randomization to the movement, which breaks predictability.

 

How do we feel about clamber if it doesn't prevent you from shooting?

 

 

I'm 50/50 on clamber because it really helps with the map design. Halo 5 makes it feel like you can just fly, but the maps are still very vertical. Imagine how impossible a map like plaza becomes when you get rid of clamber.

 

Another thing is that it's easy to say that clamber made jumping easier, but really it just expanded which jumps are possible. The hardest jumps are still hard to hit, it's just that you're barely reaching the clamber range rather than barely clearing the platform with your feet. In the case of jumps that are possible but tricky to make without clamber, it gives you a way to add some skillgap while keeping the movement lane a main thoroughfare. For instance, you can jump from snipe to the couch on Coliseum without clambering, but you have to jump and crouch exactly right. It gives you a nice advantage when you're trying to push up on somebody top rockets because it doesn't leave you open for the first shot mid-clamber. However, if people missed that jump 75% of the time, it would significantly reduce the flow in that area of the map, because going up snipe ramp suddenly traps you.

 

This concept is an important point: you can't go around making every jump and every gun impossible to use, because while it sets a theoretically huge skill ceiling, it causes a race to the bottom. Imagine basketball where the hoop was the same size of the ball + 1 inch. Nobody is that consistently accurate, so essentially the only thing you can do is dunk. Halo is no different.

 

---

Separate idea:

What if sliding gave you a general technique for becoming nearly frictionless for a half second? This is pretty close to what it does now. But suppose you could build up some speed and then slide into a sloped surface, essentially launching off of it like a ramp? With this mechanic, you might be able to get some CPMA-like movement where vertical movement was possible without clamber.

 

Clamber doesn't add a skill gap, or even sustain the gap. It kills it. Let me know how skillful these jumps are if you have clamber and thruster.

 

So the jump from yard to top yellow would be make-able by simply crouch jumping up? That jump height would have to be 2x the height of a spartan, minimum. Don't think you've thought this through..

 

Imagine a 1:1 scale of lockout in H5. Now you can slide boost from BR 3 to S2. Should you be able to cross the map in one jump? No. Why isn't Lockout in H5? Abilities. Not that I want it back, but if they did bring it back, it would be overly stretched out and terrible. Example: Midship-Truth.

 

Halo 5 has the best maps since Halo 2, so it can't have been that negative..

 

 

bahahahahahaha

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Maps like Midship are only going to hurt the pro scene, as ridiculous as that sounds. You wanna see the true difference of skill between pro teams? Stop throwing them in 2 base 2 tower maps and give them a map to play on that actually makes them think and move. It is possible to have the cycling of a 2's map in a 4v4 environment.

 

 

I hate the mechanic of clamber with everything in my soul but I can recognize some of its merits. Still, I'm of the opinion it hurts map design in more way than it helps, but that's likely because it's used in conjunction with a million other movement abilities in H5 to help people get around quickly.

 

The rest of the spartan abilities in the context of Halo 5 are dogshit and make designing a properly paced map such a burden.

 

Halo 2 maps were awful. I don't know if I'd place Halo 5s maps above 3's but I see where he's coming from. Halo 3 maps were all unique in concept, Halo 5's are cut and dry assembly line Pit children but whatever.. they're okay for 4s. Not really a knock on Bungie considering every map in 5 is handcrafted for 4's, Bungie always gave wiggle room

 

I used to feel similarly negative about Midship, but I've since come around on it. I don't think the problem is that Midship is a bad map. Au contraire, it's an excellent map. Not admitting this is just hopelessly out of touch with the professional scene. The problem is more that it's the only type of map people want to play anymore, so you don't get to play any other maps that are ALSO excellent.

 

This is something that professional players have been especially complicit in. You can actually see their influence in a lot of the Halo 5 maps, which are "fine", and play WAY better than the second tier maps of almost every other non-CE game, but they're ridiculously un-creative. Fathom? Regret? Truth? Empire? Even Stasis if you squint hard enough. Total Midship clones. But at least they play well by virtue of following the formula. That's better than having maps that are creative, but trash to play. Maybe not better in what it does to the overall Halo status quo, but better for the Pro League right now.

 

 

It's interesting to point out how much MLG has played a part in the great map shittification too. Back in Halo 3 and Reach and there were literally dozens of high quality forge maps waiting in the queue with fucking Killa KC, but they were never playtested enough to mature. Whenever pros did play them, they would hate the spawns (which have to improved empirically, and were unsurprisingly not well tuned yet), and then never play them again. When you're introducing a forged map, you're basically starting from behind because the map is inherently "worse" than developer supported maps. None of the pros had enough integrity to overcome this bias and help make them good enough. And MLG made consistently disappointing efforts to try and include them as well. The forge forum produced all of these maps and tested the shit out of them. Then MLG announced that they were picking up Amplified. Fucking amplified.

 

This is one of the reasons that I'm way less gung-ho about MLG than most people. They fucked us out of a lot of great Halo by being shitty map testers, and that's often forgotten because of how bad the non-MLG dark ages were. MLG was already changing the game enough that they may as well have just changed it all the way. Remember when they held that tournament with bloom still on? Or that time that people created the GoldPro settings because MLG wouldn't get off their ass and change the fucking sanctuary remake to Kurtiz's version? Yeah. Pepperidge farm remembers.

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Halo 5 has the best maps since Halo 2, so it can't have been that negative..

Ooh...

 

 

oo...

 

 

ooooooh.......

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 the abilities in this game allow players to escape encounters they should be in. They sprint away, thrust behind a wall, or just climb over the enemies head to escape. 

 

I'd like to address this argument because I see it a lot.

 

If a player can effectively escape a situation, then the moralizing that they *should* have died is irrelevant. In the spirit of Sirlin's "Play to Win", there is no 'should'. There is no moral way to play the game.

 

If you want to have a discussion of whether it is so easy to escape kills *in general* that the game needs to be changed, then we can talk about that. But you can't take it case by case and say "see, he would have died here if this was Halo 3. This is bad for gameplay". You have to ask whether the overall game balance is actually off first. And this is where your case falls down, because it is patently easy and common to kill people who are out of position in Halo 5, because the kill speeds are nice and fast.

 

 

You mention predictability, yet all the abilities add nothing but randomization to the movement, which breaks predictability.

 

The abilities add more options. This is not the same thing as randomization. This is uncertainty due to player strategy, which, as we discussed above, can be a good thing. Again, the proof is in the pudding: you see people throw pre-nades and check sniper sightlines with great success. However many movement options you have in this game, it still seems to be finite enough that good players can get a gut-feeling or a hunch that you're going to be pushing overlook or whatever it is.

 

Clamber doesn't add a skill gap, or even sustain the gap. It kills it. Let me know how skillful these jumps are if you have clamber and thruster.

 

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. I don't care that those jumps would be easy to make (some of them still wouldn't, by the way). Those are Guardian jumps, and Guardian is not a Halo 5 map. Halo 5 has its own maps which have their own character, and they have plenty of difficult jumps. I can show you 15 Halo 5 jumps that wouldn't be possible with Halo 3's dynamics, but I feel certain this wouldn't be persuading to you. Do you not see the double standard? There are no jumps that 'should' be hard.

 

Imagine a 1:1 scale of lockout in H5. Now you can slide boost from BR 3 to S2. Should you be able to cross the map in one jump? No. Why isn't Lockout in H5? Abilities. Not that I want it back, but if they did bring it back, it would be overly stretched out and terrible.

 

Same comments as above, essentially. Who cares? Damnation doesn't play well in Halo 2, do we think it's a bad map because of that? Maps are built for 1 game. That's why I have to specify that H2 + Warlock is better than H1 + Wizard. 

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Ooh...

 

 

oo...

 

 

ooooooh.......

 

I was hoping some people would take the bait. Can you provide us with your list of better maps? Please list which games had better maps overall, and which maps you specifically think were better designs than any of the Halo 5 maps.

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I was hoping some people would take the bait. Can you provide us with your list of better maps? Please list which games had better maps overall, and which maps you specifically think were better designs than any of the Halo 5 maps.

Ok so I'm confused. You just called it bait in your post, but you're still trying to carry it on.

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High Ground and Last Resort were excellent one sided objective maps. Narrows is the best flag map in Halo. Pretty much all the BTB maps in H3 were the highlights of the franchise. In terms of 4's H5 might have an edge.

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Ok so I'm confused. You just called it bait in your post, but you're still trying to carry it on.

 

It's bait because it's something that is true, but that people who are irrationally biased against Halo 5 for emotional reasons will be likely to disagree with. Not in the sense of trollbait. So, please, go on...

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It's bait because it's something that is true, but that people who are irrationally biased against Halo 5 for emotional reasons will be likely to disagree with. Not in the sense of trollbait. So, please, go on...

I'm not going to name H3/Reach maps that are better than H5 because I don't want to sit here and list almost every H3/Reach map for no reason.

 

 

Edit: I'm so euphoric rn.

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I'm not going to name H3/Reach maps that are better than H5 because I was trying to bandwagon you and got caught bullshitting, so now I have nothing to back it up

 

Yep, I know. But it's rewarding to see it spelled out so clearly sometimes.

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Circle jerk hating on every new addition to Halo just makes you guys look like crotchety old men.

 

Just stick to singularly hating sprint. Makes the message clearer.

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Here's something he wrote way back when.  He already had a better understanding of level design in 2008 than most forgers do now.

http://forums.majorleaguegaming.com/t/Nastys-Tips-on-Good-Map-Element-Design-7838872

 

Holy shit, I can't believe that was 8 years ago...

 

 

You'll have to teach me your google fu, I can never find any of my old stuff from those forums. Criminal how hidden they are if you ask me.

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