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CorporalWings0

Should sprint be included in Halo moving forward?

  

238 members have voted

  1. 1. Keep or remove sprint

    • Remove sprint
      199
    • Keep sprint
      39


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Circle jerk hating on every new addition to Halo just makes you guys look like crotchety old men.

 

Just stick to singularly hating sprint. Makes the message clearer.

And here we can see how far the cancer has spread.

 

I don't know what Waypoint thread you're getting your logic from, but this suggestion of yours makes the message infinitely less clear. Evolved settings chooses to remove all of the gimmicks because, amazingly, it's a clearer message. A "clear message" is not "hmm I don't like Halo 5's additions but I wonder if wall jumping would work". This moronic mentality has many faces: trying to be evolved, being a fencesitter, being a progressive, "taking the red pill", being a contrarian against (and therefore "superior" to) both sides, the schizophrenic need to unify opposing ideas into a unit, saying "your opinion isn't nuanced", appeasement, agnosticism and many others. It affects everything from philosophy to politics to design, and it is a filthy, cancerous meme.

 

Sometimes, a thick bundle of dried tobacco rolled into paper is indeed just a thick bundle of dried tobacco rolled into paper. Sometimes, a thick bundle of game-breaking pre-release marketing gimmicks rolled into a game is just a thick bundle of game-breaking pre-release marketing gimmicks rolled into a game. Abilities were not present in Halo until H5, despite what 343 claims: dual-wielding is not an ability, it is a standalone and thoroughly-tested individual feature (which didn't work), and had much less potential to ruin the rest of the gameplay. "Spartan Abilities" is a vehicle for future fuckups, and this vehicle needs to be dealt with at its root. The disease needs to removed completely. "Spartan Abilities" as a whole is the individual feature - not the individual abilities themselves. Trying to deal with them one by one will not work.

 

Clarity. Noun is adjective. "Spartan Abilities" is bad. Build that wall. Keep out that demographic. Hope and change. Legalize xyz.

 

And also, you are not better than us "crotchety old men", your smug opinion is not as evolved and superior as you think it is, and please kindly accept my downvote.

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Holy shit, I can't believe that was 8 years ago...

 

 

You'll have to teach me your google fu, I can never find any of my old stuff from those forums. Criminal how hidden they are if you ask me.

I tend to save things I like on level design, and that happens to be one of my bookmarks.  Wayback Machine can be helpful sometimes, but still misses a lot of the old content unfortunately.  I still go back and browse through this thread at least once a year, when I'm looking for inspiration.  Sucks that only about half the pages are archived.   Beyond%20Sad.png

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I'm not going to name H3/Reach maps that are better than H5 because I don't want to sit here and list almost every H3/Reach map for no reason.

 

 

Edit: I'm so euphoric rn.

I'd say that 5's maps are good on average. The only maps I think are irredeemable in any way are Riptide and Empire (my humble opinion). Truth, Coliseum, Mercy, and The Rig are some of my favorite maps since 2. After DLC was accounted for, H3 had some great stuff, but I would put 5's map collection over Reach ANY day. Countdown was the only (non forge) map I'd put in the above average category.
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Thrust is top tier garbage IMO. When Halo 5 first came out, I did a whole bunch of tallying. Maybe things have changed now, idk.

 

I tallied everytime someone survived after thrusting away from a battle after getting caught off guard or being in a dumb spot. I didn't count when people poked out of cover and thrusted back. I didn't count thrusting away from 1vs1 battles where both people were engaged for a extended period of time. Basically, I only counted the times someone was one shot and barely thrustered away and lived where they would have otherwise died without it. It was 100+ times a game for everyone combined on all maps with ease.

 

I like it for 1vs1 battles as a strafe technique, but it doesn't warrant the get out of jail free card it is. It really takes away from individual skill when it comes to flanking by yourself and you have to rely on teamshot that much more to kill an enexpecting player.

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Thrust is top tier garbage IMO. When Halo 5 first came out, I did a whole bunch of tallying. Maybe things have changed now, idk.

 

I tallied everytime someone survived after thrusting away from a battle after getting caught off guard or being in a dumb spot. I didn't count when people poked out of cover and thrusted back. I didn't count thrusting away from 1vs1 battles where both people were engaged for a extended period of time. Basically, I only counted the times someone was one shot and barely thrustered away and lived where they would have otherwise died without it. It was 100+ times a game for everyone combined on all maps with ease.

 

I like it for 1vs1 battles as a strafe technique, but it doesn't warrant the get out of jail free card it is. It really takes away from individual skill when it comes to flanking by yourself and you have to rely on teamshot that much more to kill an enexpecting player.

IDK if this is relevant but, if we could shoot while thrusting would that change anything

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Yep, I know. But it's rewarding to see it spelled out so clearly sometimes.

Are you okay?

 

I literally said most H3/Reach maps are better than H5's.

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Are you okay?

 

I literally said most H3/Reach maps are better than H5's.

 

He's thinks he "got you" for knee-jerk, emotional "bias against H5" because it's different, because that's obviously the only reason anyone would dislike H5 maps. You know, because he's an insufferable, pretentious imbecile with delusions of grandeur. Anyone who disagrees with his moronic assertions is clearly irrational. After all, he LITERALLY invented the "simplicity bears complexity" argument. What a hero.

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How are you not gonna list Overgrowth in that list of irredeemable maps lmao

I don't mind strongholds on it personally. Otherwise irredeemable. I'd also be curious to see how oddball is played on it, but I'm sure it's pretty likely it would be hot garbage
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IDK if this is relevant but, if we could shoot while thrusting would that change anything

The cool down of the time from thrusting to being able to shoot is the same minimum time between pistol shots. You can thrust without having an effect on your maximum rate of fire.

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I remember Holmes said they tested shooting while thrusting and it didn't work for some reason which I can't really remember. I'd find the post, but the search doesn't go back far enough.

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Are you okay?

 

I literally said most H3/Reach maps are better than H5's.

 

Let's look at those maps.

 

Anchor 9

Boardwalk

Boneyard

Breakpoint

Condemned

Countdown

Asylum

Hemorrhage

Paradiso

Pinnacle

The Cage

Uncaged

Highlands

Powerhouse

Reflection

Spire

Sword Base

Tempest

Zealot

Assembly

Avalanche

Blackout

Citadel

Cold Storage

Epitaph

Foundry

Ghost Town

Guardian

Heretic

High Ground

Isolation

Last Resort

Longshore

Narrows

Orbital

Rat's Nest

Sandbox

Sandtrap

Snowbound

Standoff

The Pit

Valhalla

 

Some of these designs were good tries, but didn't actually play well. Assembly, Sword Base, Epitaph, Cold Storage and Ghost Town leap to mind.

 

 

Of the stock maps that were actually tolerable to play, we have:

Countdown

Zealot (with important changes)

Guardian

Construct

Heretic

Narrows

The Pit

 

Of those, the ones that actually involve some verticality and come close to being interesting maps (not just maps that play fine for 4s by being formulaic) you have:

Countdown

Guardian

Construct

Narrows, depending on who you talk to. (I personally think it's dreary, but people seem to be mixed on this).

 

 

Halo 5 shipped with The Rig, Plaza and Eden which are balanced, asymmetrical, vertical layouts that play slayer and strongholds well. In addition, it has Coliseum, Fathom, Regret and Truth which are boring but balanced Slayer / CTF maps (besides Regret). Literally all of them have more 3-dimensionality to them than The Pit. So if we had to rank all of the playable maps out of these 3 games it might look something like this:

 

 (3)  Guardian

*(5)  The Rig

*(5)  Plaza

 ® Countdown

*(5)  Eden

 (3)  Construct

*(5)  Coliseum

 (3)  Narrows

*(5)  Fathom

 (3)  Heretic

*(5)  Truth

 (3)  The Pit

*(5)  Regret

 ®  Zealot

 

 

Now when I look at that list, I see that Halo 5 has by far the most entries. Further, it has 3 of the top 5 spots. So saying that "most" Halo 3 and Halo Reach maps are better is just plain unsubstantiated. Even if you completely re-ordered this list to put ever Halo 5 map at the bottom, it's still doing better. "Most" Halo 3 and Halo Reach maps are not even playable at all, yet alone competitive with the best of the H5 maps.

 

So my claim is that you are being uncharitable to Halo 5. Rebuttal?

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I remember Holmes said they tested shooting while thrusting and it didn't work for some reason which I can't really remember. I'd find the post, but the search doesn't go back far enough.

He just said something like they didn't like the pace of it and it didn't fit the vision for the gameplay they wanted.

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Let's look at those maps.

 

Anchor 9

Boardwalk

Boneyard

Breakpoint

Condemned

Countdown

Asylum

Hemorrhage

Paradiso

Pinnacle

The Cage

Uncaged

Highlands

Powerhouse

Reflection

Spire

Sword Base

Tempest

Zealot

Assembly

Avalanche

Blackout

Citadel

Cold Storage

Epitaph

Foundry

Ghost Town

Guardian

Heretic

High Ground

Isolation

Last Resort

Longshore

Narrows

Orbital

Rat's Nest

Sandbox

Sandtrap

Snowbound

Standoff

The Pit

Valhalla

 

Some of these designs were good tries, but didn't actually play well. Assembly, Sword Base, Epitaph, Cold Storage and Ghost Town leap to mind.

 

 

Of the stock maps that were actually tolerable to play, we have:

Countdown

Zealot (with important changes)

Guardian

Construct

Heretic

Narrows

The Pit

 

Of those, the ones that actually involve some verticality and come close to being interesting maps (not just maps that play fine for 4s by being formulaic) you have:

Countdown

Guardian

Construct

Narrows, depending on who you talk to. (I personally think it's dreary, but people seem to be mixed on this).

 

 

Halo 5 shipped with The Rig, Plaza and Eden which are balanced, asymmetrical, vertical layouts that play slayer and strongholds well. In addition, it has Coliseum, Fathom, Regret and Truth which are boring but balanced Slayer / CTF maps (besides Regret). Literally all of them have more 3-dimensionality to them than The Pit. So if we had to rank all of the playable maps out of these 3 games it might look something like this:

 

 (3)  Guardian

*(5)  The Rig

*(5)  Plaza

 ® Countdown

*(5)  Eden

 (3)  Construct

*(5)  Coliseum

 (3)  Narrows

*(5)  Fathom

 (3)  Heretic

*(5)  Truth

 (3)  The Pit

*(5)  Regret

 ®  Zealot

 

 

Now when I look at that list, I see that Halo 5 has by far the most entries. Further, it has 3 of the top 5 spots. So saying that "most" Halo 3 and Halo Reach maps are better is just plain unsubstantiated. Even if you completely re-ordered this list to put ever Halo 5 map at the bottom, it's still doing better. "Most" Halo 3 and Halo Reach maps are not even playable at all, yet alone competitive with the best of the H5 maps.

 

So my claim is that you are being uncharitable to Halo 5. Rebuttal?

My rebuttal? You're only including stock maps when we had control over which forged maps to include during H3/Reach. Unlike H5, forge actually played a role back then.

 

Second of all, you're being very generous to H5's maps. Rig/Eden/Regret slayer all play terribly, especially if you want to account for the game's weapon balance + radar that encourages rampant corner crouching . None of H5's maps can even support assault.

 

Next, Truth is a larger, modified Heretic. They also put a fuel rod on it. I'm not going to give them credit for that.

 

Fourth, you're only including the good H5 maps and not the shitty ones.

 

Overgrowth

Riptide

Molten

Torque

Tyrant

Stasis

 

If you wanted, I could also list the mountains of terrible H5 forge maps in order to make the pool of "playable" H5 maps look smaller in comparison.

 

 

Fifth, H5 doesn't have non-forged BtB maps.

 

Sixth, a sizeable portion of the "competitive 4v4" H5 maps only support one gametype...

 

Regret slayer (not even good)

Stasis flag (not even good)

Empire Strongholds (not even good)

Fathom flag

 

None of them support 3.

 

If we had the same standards of competitive Halo now that we did in 2010, H5's map pool would be:

 

Truth

-Slayer

-Flag

 

Rig

-Strongholds

 

Eden

-Strongholds

 

Fathom

-Flag

 

Coliseum

-Slayer

-Flag

 

Plaza

-Slayer

-Strongholds

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I'd like to address this argument because I see it a lot.

 

If a player can effectively escape a situation, then the moralizing that they *should* have died is irrelevant. In the spirit of Sirlin's "Play to Win", there is no 'should'. There is no moral way to play the game.

 

If you want to have a discussion of whether it is so easy to escape kills *in general* that the game needs to be changed, then we can talk about that. But you can't take it case by case and say "see, he would have died here if this was Halo 3. This is bad for gameplay". You have to ask whether the overall game balance is actually off first. And this is where your case falls down, because it is patently easy and common to kill people who are out of position in Halo 5, because the kill speeds are nice and fast.

 

 

 

The abilities add more options. This is not the same thing as randomization. This is uncertainty due to player strategy, which, as we discussed above, can be a good thing. Again, the proof is in the pudding: you see people throw pre-nades and check sniper sightlines with great success. However many movement options you have in this game, it still seems to be finite enough that good players can get a gut-feeling or a hunch that you're going to be pushing overlook or whatever it is.

 

 

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. I don't care that those jumps would be easy to make (some of them still wouldn't, by the way). Those are Guardian jumps, and Guardian is not a Halo 5 map. Halo 5 has its own maps which have their own character, and they have plenty of difficult jumps. I can show you 15 Halo 5 jumps that wouldn't be possible with Halo 3's dynamics, but I feel certain this wouldn't be persuading to you. Do you not see the double standard? There are no jumps that 'should' be hard.

 

 

Same comments as above, essentially. Who cares? Damnation doesn't play well in Halo 2, do we think it's a bad map because of that? Maps are built for 1 game. That's why I have to specify that H2 + Warlock is better than H1 + Wizard. 

 

If a player can escape a situation, it means the gameplay mechanics enable players who initiate bad plays by location themselves in terrible map locations or by pushing and failing. It is the reason these issues are brought up in the first place, it is the most relevant thing to discuss, so I have no idea what you're attempting to explain. This topic has nothing to do with morals, it is about actions and consequences. Make a bad play, get punished. Plain and simple. However, abilities add a handicap that empowers players who make poor decisions by removing them from the consequences of their actions.

 

It isn't about saying "he would have died if this were Halo 3" that is a drop in the water bucket of ignorance. We're talking about abilities, the argument is to remove them because they worsen gameplay. Whether it is CE, H2, H3, or even Reach Pro settings, you do not get a "get out of jail free" card that is abilities. There is a huge difference between standing in the middle of nowhere and being too far from cover. H5 allows people to be too far from cover because they can thrust and increase movement to get back to safety, where as classic Halo meant you needed to engage rather than run. You could out-play them, this is hardly the case in H5 due to the escapability abilities grant.

 

randomization is uncertainty. so I have no idea what you are arguing. The gut feeling you are referring to is the position in which the enemy heads to, that puts you in harms way. The issue here is the predictability in timing that abilities break. If I know you are headed to "outlook" or wherever, I can pre-nade that position, but there is randomization in the movement, so there is no way of knowing when and if my grenade will affect the enemy at all. They could very well be there as I'm throwing my grenade due to slide boosting, and at that point, it is too late. Again, Randomization IS uncertainty. 

 

I'm not comparing apples to oranges, unless of course you mean classic Halo to current Halo, in which case, yes they are two completely different things that are hardly relatable. You should care that those jumps would be insanely easy to make, because you said it yourself in a sense. It removes a skill gap of having to accurately determine where your feet will land and the physics that come with it compared to halo 5 where you just need to get close to any edge, and an animation locks you into making the jump. Imagine a baseball field. You get an automatic point for a home-run, but just being in the ballpark doesn't cut it.

 

"Who cares?" Great argument. While remakes may not perform exactly as they did in the previous title, they still function successfully. I refer you back to Lockout and getting across map in a single jump. Gameplay is shattered. H3's Blackout wasn't received as well as Lockout, but it still function at it's core the same. You have no valid argument here.

 

Molten, anyone? Are people just trying to forget that map? If so, I understand. It's awful.

 

That map with 8 pairs of plasma grenades and only one relevant location on the map that houses a sniper rifle? Pshh, nah.

 

How are you not gonna list Overgrowth in that list of irredeemable maps lmao

 

 

Ahahah easily one of the worst maps in the franchise, right next to Molten and Riptide. Funny how even HCS ignores these maps.

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You're only including stock maps

 

Of course I'm including only stock maps, that's the entire topic of discussion. We're talking about which game shipped with the best maps. If you open the door to all maps that have ever been forged, there's thousands of entries that we would have to consider.

 

we had control over which forged maps to include during H3/Reach.

 

Okay, so you're saying we ought to include maps that were in the competitive playcycle, forged or otherwise. Remind me, in what way did "we" have control over which forged maps to include, any more than we do today? You mean we were able to appeal to MLG to add maps? Let's look at some of the gems they added:

 

Onslaught

Amplified

Shitty Sanctuary that they wouldn't even replace with an objectively better version

 

Amazing, those sure were the days. As you say: 

 

Unlike H5, forge actually played a role back then.

 

MLG avoided adding forge maps like the plague. The only reason those handful of maps were added is because we were all desperate for other gametypes. Want to know why? BECAUSE THE GAMES SHIPPED WITH TRASH MAPS.

 

 

The maps that they did add were mostly terrible, despite dozens of good maps to choose from. Why? Part of the reason was because in H3 and Reach, the framerate suffered severely for all but the simplest maps. So any of the cool maps that you can go back and find on somebody's H3 fileshare were almost guaranteed to not play well. Trust me, I wish this weren't the case: I invested more time than I care to admit forging H3 and Reach maps, and there were zero returns because nobody likes playing on unofficial maps, especially if there's even the slightest inherent issue with them. The framerate issue was enough for most people to think all forge maps were terrible.

 

The fact that we don't use forged gametypes today is because the maps we have aren't trash. And this is actually too bad in a way, because H5 forge is such a quantum leap forward, and I can say with certainty that there are some awesome competitive maps we could be playing.  I'm not aware of any framerate issues (could be wrong about this? somebody feel free to correct if so), so ironically the moment these forged levels can actually be competitive is the point that they're no longer considered necessary. 

 

Rig/Eden/Regret slayer all play terribly

 

[citation needed]

 

Next, Truth is a larger, modified Heretic. They also put a fuel rod on it. I'm not going to give them credit for that.

 

I... really hope that you understand that Heretic is just Midship. So if you're taking away credit for Truth, then we're taking way credit for Heretic too. Net zero. Actually, it makes the situation worse, if you go in terms of each game's percentage share of the maps we consider good.

 

 

 

Fourth, you're only including the good H5 maps and not the shitty ones.

 

Overgrowth

Riptide

Molten

Torque

Tyrant

Stasis

 

Who cares if there's bad maps? What does that effect? It's the total number that matters, not the percentage. The only reason I listed out all of the crapola from H3 and Reach is because you made the indefensible statement that MOST maps from those games are superior to the good H5 ones, and I wanted to demonstrate that I was taking all possible entries from the comprehensive list. 

 

 

If you wanted, I could also list the mountains of terrible H5 forge maps in order to make the pool of "playable" H5 maps look smaller in comparison.

 

Go ahead, and don't forget to list all of the terrible H3 and Reach ones out there too. In fact, go ahead and include all of the good ones too, since most of them were considered unplayable due to framerate lag. Completely vacuous.

 

 

Fifth, H5 doesn't have non-forged BtB maps.

 

If you say so, I've never looked. If you're looking for less competitive BtB-type gameplay, aren't crazy forge creations what you want to play anyway? Are there people who were really serious about playing Containment or something?

 

 

Sixth, a sizeable portion of the "competitive 4v4" H5 maps only support one gametype...

 

I specifically didn't list Empire or Stasis because I agree those gametypes aren't good. I'm not taking any credit for them as particularly good maps. Regret flag and Fathom slayer probably play fine. They're not completely incapable of supporting those gametypes, they're just disincluded because there are other gametypes that are slightly better. The gametypes would likely be more competitive, though more boring, if we replaced Stasis and Empire with the missing flag/slayer gametypes on Fathom and Regret.

 

Anyway, a map is a map; if it plays one thing well, that's good enough. Most H1 maps are played with slayer, and it's not a big deal. When was the last time you played a 4v4 Oddball on Damnation?

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"Who cares?" Great argument.

 

What are you, 6 years old? The point is that we needn't care about remakes, because each game stands on its own. No other argument needs to be made if that's true.

 

Your disagreement appears to stem from the concern that we are unable to reproduce blockbuster successes like Blackout on the Halo 5 engine. Yeah, I'm not concerned about that. I don't want to play remakes. There is nothing interesting about playing Damnation on Reach. 

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What are you, 6 years old? The point is that we needn't care about remakes, because each game stands on its own. No other argument needs to be made if that's true.

 

Your disagreement appears to stem from the concern that we are unable to reproduce blockbuster successes like Blackout on the Halo 5 engine. Yeah, I'm not concerned about that. I don't want to play remakes. There is nothing interesting about playing Damnation on Reach. 

 

 

bench-warmers-birth-certificate-funny-mo

 

 

We in fact, SHOULD care about remakes, because they show us that the game is shying away from its core. Maps that thrived in classic Halo games are remembered and longed for due to the interesting encounters and memories made on them. There is nothing memorable about any Halo 5 maps in terms of gameplay, let alone art. I would rather play Damnation in Halo 5 over quite honestly, any of the developer maps. Would it play as good as CE? No. Of course not, but as I already stated, that is not the argument. I understand that each game stands on its own, but you need to understand that if a classic map simply cannot work on a new game on any level, the core gameplay has morphed into something unrecognizable. I don't want to play that game, I want to play Halo.

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No one is going to be remaking Halo 5 maps 10 years from now in the same way no one remakes Halo 4 maps now. Everyone is still making Lockout.

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bench-warmers-birth-certificate-funny-mo

 

 

We in fact, SHOULD care about remakes, because they show us that the game is shying away from its core. Maps that thrived in classic Halo games are remembered and longed for due to the interesting encounters and memories made on them. There is nothing memorable about any Halo 5 maps in terms of gameplay, let alone art. I would rather play Damnation in Halo 5 over quite honestly, any of the developer maps. Would it play as good as CE? No. Of course not, but as I already stated, that is not the argument. I understand that each game stands on its own, but you need to understand that if a classic map simply cannot work on a new game on any level, the core gameplay has morphed into something unrecognizable. I don't want to play that game, I want to play Halo.

 

Well I definitely agree that the map aesthetics have gotten progressively worse. There's no doubt that the look and feel of Halo has gotten more generic and, in a certain sense, less soulful. 

 

 

It would be cool if they came out with something that was basically H1's gameplay, but modernized in all the ways that it actually needed to be modernized. Higher and more consistent fps, even in 4 player split screen, and dedicated servers. Honestly, there's not a ton more that needs changing, besides a true handful of bugfixes that could be argued.

 

The thing is... that game already exists. It's Halo 1 Final. You can play it any time you want. So I don't think you just want to play something that's Halo. I think you want to have everyone else also play Halo so that it feels like it's 2001 again. And to be honest, me too. But it doesn't appear to be happening, so I've moved on.

 

Historically, every single Halo has been a downgrade from its predecessor in terms of gameplay. Halo 5 is the first game to reverse that trend. It's aesthetically dismal, far more frenetic in its movement, and it certainly has its warts. But I think the most important aspect of CE is that when you die, you kind of just have to kick yourself, because that death was, without question, your fault. Outside of some genuinely frustrating situations (splinter grenades, the odd ghost melee, weird Hydra kills), Halo 5 is about the closest I've felt in a long time to "I could have avoided that if I were better". That's the feeling that keeps you playing. If you remember Halo 2 without rose-colored glasses, all of the missed melee lunges and grenades getting shot out of your hand start to come back. Then you remember Halo 3 BR battles that seemed to roll the dice on whether it would hand you a headshot. Halo has been pretty shitty for a long ass time, and I for one am happy to celebrate the first progress we've made in the right direction.

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H5 maps are better than H4 maps. But Construct, Narrows, Pit (which I don't even like), Guardian, are better than Plaza, Rig, Fathom, Empire, Eden, and Regret. Honestly speaking, I'd rather take 4 good maps than 6 sub par for the competitive scene maps. Coliseum is the best map in H5, and it's just a two base two tower map.

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H5 maps are better than H4 maps. But Construct, Narrows, Pit (which I don't even like), Guardian, are better than Plaza, Rig, Fathom, Empire, Eden, and Regret. Honestly speaking, I'd rather take 4 good maps than 6 sub par for the competitive scene maps. Coliseum is the best map in H5, and it's just a two base two tower map.

 

I assume you agree that H5 maps > Reach maps as well?

 

 

The Rig is probably the best map in H5 from a map designers standpoint. I can see why you'd say Coliseum is the best from a gameplay perspective though. I just really like Rig because it has cool stuff going on with all the sightlines around Camo, plus the way that you can go through Sewers to make risky pushes into basement / Car. There's so much gymnastics you can do if you have a really good mental model of the map. Plus it has a lot of cool jumps, including out of Rail 2's window and back into Rail 1, or launching of the Splinter box at the start of the game to get into White corner fast. Not to mention all the strategy revolving around shooting down Camo. I just feel like all of that constriction around such a dangerous Camo spawn makes it play like a spiritual successor to Damnation. 

 

Are Construct and Narrows really such great maps? I just don't get the love. Construct was so ridiculously vertical that it actually managed to be a bad thing. And it used to get played as a CTF map despite the fact that it was wildly asymmetric, much more so than some maps today that get more grief for it (e.g. Stasis). Narrows was fair, and it created some reasonably interesting fights on the bridge, but I feel like a huge part of what people liked about that map was just Neighbor-ing people off spawn. It was like the one chance that scrubs got to spawn kill people consistently. They were both good maps compared to the rest of the offerings in H3 and Reach, but I just can't imagine preferring those designs to Rig or Plaza. 

 

Sounds like you're wise to the big Pit conspiracy at least. It's the most undeservedly loved map in Halo history, bar none. 

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H5 maps are better than H4 maps. But Construct, Narrows, Pit (which I don't even like), Guardian, are better than Plaza, Rig, Fathom, Empire, Eden, and Regret. Honestly speaking, I'd rather take 4 good maps than 6 sub par for the competitive scene maps. Coliseum is the best map in H5, and it's just a two base two tower map.

construct is one of my favorite, it plays soo well IMO

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