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HCS Pro League Fall 2016 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion‏

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Read a bunch of alternatives once i just posted and most of them are too complicated.  keep it simple. If you have to take 5 minutes with a flow chart to explain the tournament structure to a viewer, your tournament structure is too complex.

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There is no way to interpret your above post as anything but disrespect.  I have seen you in this thread enough to know that there is NO WAY you didn't know there was an EU pro league.  If you want to backtrack, make an actual apology not give an excuse.  And if it was supposed to be a legitimate question there are a myriad of other way you could have asked that would have gotten you legit answers.

 

 

 

How would I know there are EU teams and a whole EU league? I've never seen anyone talk about it here. Where else would I possibly see advertisement for this league?

 

What are these "myriad" other ways that are more effective than just straight up asking a question? What was I supposed to say? "I've never heard a single thing about an EU league. I am curious if there is one but in the event that there is one please don't be irrationally upset about me asking this question"?

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No, 7th and 8th would be determined by the relegation tournament. So for ALG and E6 to get to the finals tournament they would first have to win/come second in relegations. In the finals tournament 5th to 8th would effectively be single elim whereas 1st to 4th would be double.

 

Gives a distinct advantage of being top 4 whilst retaining a full 8 team finals.

 

 

Or you could have a double elim tournament where 5th and 6th are in the losers and 7th/8th just play in the relegation tournament.

You're misunderstanding because you're viewing relegation and Finals as two distinct separate tournaments.

 

Think of it in terms of the weekend as a whole.

 

If I am the 8th place team, and relegation plays out to seeds (7 > 8 > Ams), then I will lose one series in relegation. When I get to the Finals bracket, I'm a team that already lost a series this weekend. The 5th, 6th, and 7th have not lost a series.

 

I unfairly had a buffer series loss compared to 5th/6th (arguable for 7th) because of the format.

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Funny?

 

When do these EU teams play? Ive never seen them. Or are they mixed in? I pretty much recognise all the pros and none are EU as far as I know.

 

You guys are unbelievably hostile here. H5 esports is not a popular scene. Chill the fuck out people. A lot of people do not know all the details of this stuff and literally every time i've reached out in this thread I either get a nice helpful response from a mod or an admin or a complete asshat reply from regular posters and tons of negs.

 

This place will never grow if this is the attitude you guys all have.

 

-29 for asking a question. Idiots.

 

I've heard insulting people arbitrarily will DEFINITELY get your point across

 

 

Seriously, I call bullshit on you not realizing there is an EU Pro League. It seems far more likely that you tried to make a disparaging remark about the EU players/teams and then backtracked with possibly the dumbest excuse you could have tried to use.

 

 

And you know what's funny about your whole "you guys are so hostile/I'm new here/some people don't know the details" shtick? Most EVERY lurker/new poster/new face who comes in here to post or ask questions gets met with open arms and friendly answers, maybe with some banter thrown in. Do you have any clues as to why your experience has been so different?

 

Starting with the paragraph, your post went like this (by sentence):

 

- Whiny insult

- Takes shot at H5 esports

- Command

- Whiny complaint with an insult thrown in

- Grandmotherly advice (you'll never ___)

- Complains about neg rep

- Insult

 

 

Why are you confused about your reception?

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I think the problem is the lack of LANs and not the format of pro league. Yesterday was awesome, I'm gonna remember the str8 rippin comeback and the EG/E7 drama for a long time. This format creates good histories, not in the same way that maybe most of you are used to. I'm a big soccer fan (a brazilian soccer fan, shocking) and I'm used to this kind of format, but in the same way that we have leagues, we have tourneys that creates another kind of histories, one complement the other.The pro league benefits teams with consistency, we will have histories of comeback, teams that are almost guarantee in TOP 4 and drop, changes in relegation in the last week, roster changes in the middle of the league that changes what a team is fighting for. If we have a TOP 6 or TOP 8 finals after the league, then we will lose this kind os stories. LANs tourneys with all the pro teams creates other type of stories, equally awesome. So, in my opinion, we need more good tourneys (open lans or just the top 8 teams) to complement the pro league, but I can understand why most of you have a different opinion.

 

And waiting one month to finals is too much, finals must happen close to the end of the league, or the hype and the histories will lose strength.

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Funny?

 

When do these EU teams play? Ive never seen them. Or are they mixed in? I pretty much recognise all the pros and none are EU as far as I know.

 

You guys are unbelievably hostile here. H5 esports is not a popular scene. Chill the fuck out people. A lot of people do not know all the details of this stuff and literally every time i've reached out in this thread I either get a nice helpful response from a mod or an admin or a complete asshat reply from regular posters and tons of negs.

 

This place will never grow if this is the attitude you guys all have.

 

-29 for asking a question. Idiots.

Aside from the last comment, which is still in a way justified, why was this negged? Honestly, this thread reacts so terribly whenever someone doesn't know something. Guess what guys, he's right. The HCS/Pro league is not a huge thing, not everyone knows what's going on, and not everyone keeps up with this thread. Negging someone for not knowing something is the way how to LOSE interest. Not everyone is trying to be sarcastic, some people really don't know.

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I think an open bracket with 7th and 8th included into the open bracket should determine which two teams qualify for championships.

 

Seeds 1-4 are in the winners bracket and then seeds 5-8 are in the losers bracket and that's where championships should start at. 1v4 and 2v3 in the winners and 5v8 and 6v7 in the losers bracket.

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Here we all are trying to figure out the best way to have the end of season tournament, like civilized Halo fans. No name calling, just logical explanations for reasoning and thoughtful responses.

Well done TB well done....

 

 

Just doing someone elses job, for nothing.

 

Nothing out of the norm there.

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Aside from the last comment, which is still in a way justified, why was this negged? 

 

if that's a real question... look, like, two posts above yours? @@CharlesSharkley literally just broke down the answer to that question before you asked it

 

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If the goal is to get all the teams at an end of season LAN and still have the league season be as meaningful as possible, then I'd have the top 4 teams in their own tournament with all 4 teams auto-qualified for next season as the reward for their regular season placement.  

 

There's then a separate tournament where the top 4 get the other 4 spots in the league.  Players from the bottom 4 league teams will break up anyway given how teaming works in Halo and enter into this tournament in whatever squads they want.

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if that's a real question... look, like, two posts above yours? @@CharlesSharkley literally just broke down the answer to that question before you asked it

 

 

it would probably help if he didn't phrase every question in that weird "woe is me fuck you" way. idk, it reads like he's mad he even has to ask the question which isn't really how you get helpful responses. 

The initial post is something that people who don't keep up with the pro league would know. Anyone who doesn't come into this thread regularly and doesn't search for H5 on Twitch won't know this. 

This should be clear because a lot of people are not interested in competitive Halo and only know the big names. I'd say 70% of Waypoint and r/halo don't even know there is a EU pro league either, and it's because not everyone follows the scene.

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I'll be honest. I just want MLG and more open events. Do away with online league as a whole. 

 

While that's likely unfeasible, what about a 50/50 split? You play in open events every other week or two, and the gaps are filled in with online tournaments involving both AM and pro teams, fighting through a double elim bracket, kinda like worlds. Obviously, the LANs would be worth more in terms of seeding points than the online tourneys, but we get more events and orgs/ESL don't have to pay for an event every week. This is just all off of the top of my head during a commercial break, but it's something.

 

Thoughts? 

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I've heard insulting people arbitrarily will DEFINITELY get your point across

 

 

Seriously, I call bullshit on you not realizing there is an EU Pro League. It seems far more likely that you tried to make a disparaging remark about the EU players/teams and then backtracked with possibly the dumbest excuse you could have tried to use.

 

 

And you know what's funny about your whole "you guys are so hostile/I'm new here/some people don't know the details" shtick? Most EVERY lurker/new poster/new face who comes in here to post or ask questions gets met with open arms and friendly answers, maybe with some banter thrown in. Do you have any clues as to why your experience has been so different?

 

Starting with the paragraph, your post went like this (by sentence):

 

- Whiny insult

- Takes shot at H5 esports

- Command

- Whiny complaint with an insult thrown in

- Grandmotherly advice (you'll never ___)

- Complains about neg rep

- Insult

 

 

Why are you confused about your reception?

My little rant there was following 4 or 5 simple questions met with hostility. Most "lurkers" here are still paying close attention to H5 esports. You're fooling yourself if you don't think teambeyond has a very poor reputation when it comes to more casual halo players or more casual H5 esports followers.

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I'll be honest. I just want MLG and more open events. Do away with online league as a whole. 

 

While that's likely unfeasible, what about a 50/50 split? You play in open events every other week or two, and the gaps are filled in with online tournaments involving both AM and pro teams, fighting through a double elim bracket, kinda like worlds. Obviously, the LANs would be worth more in terms of seeding points than the online tourneys, but we get more events and orgs/ESL don't have to pay for an event every week. This is just all off of the top of my head during a commercial break, but it's something.

 

Thoughts? 

I think one open event a month max.  Traveling like that can be very taxing (and expensive).

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You're fooling yourself if you don't think teambeyond has a very poor reputation when it comes to more casual halo players or more casual H5 esports followers.

 

so what you're saying is if TB had a rep bar, it'd looks like yours? 

________

 

to be a little more serious, if you really didn't know there was an EU league, then it's just an honest misunderstanding because people do put down the EU league with comments like that. Yes, there is an EU league, it broadcasts literally every week and yes, all its information is on the first page of the thread you were commenting in.

 

there's not much sense in acting like its a sitewide problem and you're heroically exposing issues to make Team Beyond great again for the average casuals at home. just let it go, dude.

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My little rant there was following 4 or 5 simple questions met with hostility. Most "lurkers" here are still paying close attention to H5 esports. You're fooling yourself if you don't think teambeyond has a very poor reputation when it comes to more casual halo players or more casual H5 esports followers.

 

Posting "Wait, there are EU teams?" 1100 pages into a thread that you post in regularly and where the EU league also comes up regularly is going to get met with hostility.  This is also the internet.  There is no tone to text, so you have to clarify it.  Saying, 

 

"Wait, there are EU teams?"

 

is a hell of a lot different than saying,

 

"Wait, there are EU teams? I only follow the scene casually so i didn't even know. Where can i get more info?"

 

those are going to get met with 2 totally different responses.  The first with hostility, the second with concrete info and lamentations about how the EU scene deserves better coverage and viewership. Its not about the message, its about the presentation.  Especially on the internet.

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My proposed bracket idea for NA Pro League Finals

DpUsPC8.png

 

Took me a second to read, but I think I like this.

 

so if I'm reading this right, the C loser and E loser would be relegated? Would this have a grand finals where the undefeated team must lose two series to lose?

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Took me a second to read, but I think I like this.

 

so if I'm reading this right, the C loser and E loser would be relegated? Would this have a grand finals where the undefeated team must lose two series to lose?

C loser and E loser are relegated yes. No GF needed as it just feeds into the main bracket.

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I'll be honest. I just want MLG and more open events. Do away with online league as a whole. 

 

While that's likely unfeasible, what about a 50/50 split? You play in open events every other week or two, and the gaps are filled in with online tournaments involving both AM and pro teams, fighting through a double elim bracket, kinda like worlds. Obviously, the LANs would be worth more in terms of seeding points than the online tourneys, but we get more events and orgs/ESL don't have to pay for an event every week. This is just all off of the top of my head during a commercial break, but it's something.

 

Thoughts? 

 

I don't think monthly LANs are sustainable with our population. Looking at the turnouts for Chatt/STL/OC, I think it's pretty clear that people will go to H5 LANs, but if they have to choose between 4 LANs over the course of 3 months, they'll just go to the 1 or 2 that are cheapest for them to travel to. Having one big open event in a good location I think would benefit everyone more, IMO.

 

I personally really enjoyed the HWC format and with some tweaks I think it could work alongside a pro league and open LANs. Start with an Online Ladder (I think lack of ladder play is a big part of the reason we have a low number of Challenger teams, If you can't play on weekends you can't participate in the league). Ladder would run throughout the season and would award a relatively minuscule amount of points. Then you have weekly Challenger tournaments like we have now, these would be the primary way to earn points. You have Pro League running along side this isolated like it is currently (points don't matter to them, since they are seeded by pro-league standing). Then you cap the season off with a single blowout open event: Pro teams get a bye into top-16, AM teams are seeded according to the points they've accumulated over the season, and the top-8 teams from this tournament are automatically your pro-league teams for next season (no need for a separate relegation tournament, and no one is 'safe' from dropping out of pro league). Do this 4 times a year and after the winter season, invite the top-8 teams to worlds.

 

My proposed bracket idea for NA Pro League Finals

 

Didn't MLG basically use this format once and stopped using it because the 1 and 2 team both lost to the teams coming off wins/momentum. I think it was '09 nationals.

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C loser and E loser are relegated yes. No GF needed as it just feeds into the main bracket.

 

I meant the grand finals on your diagram, the S match between O winner and R winner, the R winner will always have 1 loss that the O winner won't, right?  it doesn't seem like it's fair to the team coming from the winner's finals unless you have to defeat them twice so it's proper double elimination.

 

i don't know, i'm kind of hungover so maybe i'm misunderstanding something

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I meant the grand finals on your diagram, the S match between O winner and R winner, the R winner will always have 1 loss that the O winner won't, right?  it doesn't seem like it's fair to the team coming from the winner's finals unless you have to defeat them twice so it's proper double elimination.

 

i don't know, i'm kind of hungover so maybe i'm misunderstanding something

R winner would have to take 2 series off the O winner, just like a normal Grand Finals double-elim tournament.

 

Didn't MLG basically use this format once and stopped using it because the 1 and 2 team both lost to the teams coming off wins/momentum. I think it was '09 nationals.

Seems like a silly reason to not use a format based off 1 tournaments results.

Teams would still absolutely take a bye over not. Just look at the NFL playoffs.

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