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CyReN

HCS Pro League Fall 2016 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion‏

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I made some edits

 

I feel like it would have been funnier to put that second one in the resource cost section. You blew it man.

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care to translate? I had no clue what that guy just said.

 

Lol! The point was he had a very poorly timed voice crack when he was the only one on his team screaming at the other team. My loose translation:

 

"YOU CAN'T FUCK WITH ME, MAN!!! YOU CAN'T FUCK WITH ME, MAN!!!! YOU. CAN'T. FUCK WITH ME, man!"

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Lol! The point was he had a very poorly timed voice crack when he was the only one on his team screaming at the other team. My loose translation:

 

"YOU CAN'T FUCK WITH ME, MAN!!! YOU CAN'T FUCK WITH ME, MAN!!!! YOU. CAN'T. FUCK WITH ME, man!"

 

lmao yeah the voice crack was the only thing I caught

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I'm starting to realize why you say "what are you even arguing here" so often. It's not because you're trying to be dismissive - you literally don't understand the arguments.

 

 

 

So let me try again. You're saying that it is too easy ("cheap") to gather information by throwing grenades. Who told you it had to be skillful? Why does it matter how difficult it is? It's a strategic decision. The reason you reward the player with information is because they thought to do it at all, not because it's especially difficult. It's like you're arguing that the Halo 5 overshield is stupid because all you had to do was walk up to it and hold B. The most hilarious thing is that on the spectrum of things that give you information about enemy players, hitting them with a grenade is actually by far the most technically demanding! Walking into a room and looking around is a strategic decision that may or may not be a good choice strategically, but it's physically the easiest thing in the game to do.

 

Let me break it down even more simply:

Getting direct LOS

Foreknowledge required: Which room the opponent is in

Action, and skill-level required: Walk into the room and look around (None)

Information gathered: Exact number and positions of players in the room

Information sacrificed: Your exact position

Resource cost: None

 

Getting a grenade hitmarker

Foreknowledge required: Which specific area the opponent is in

Action, and skill-level required: Place a grenade so close to their feet that they cannot thrust away from it (Medium)

Information gathered: Position of opponent to within one grenade radius, unknown number of opponents

Information sacrificed: Your approximate position, depending on how much of the nade trajectory they saw

Resource cost: 1 grenade

 

The burden is on you to explain why one of these is more fair than the other. Got it?

 

 

You alternately describe grenade the grenade radius as being "like 5 feet" and "humongous". Which one is it? If they're huge, then the information they give you is less precise, because you could be anywhere inside of the blast radius, even at the very edge. If they're tiny, than they're easier to avoid. They cannot be both. Comprende?

 

Yes, I don't understand the arguments because they literally don't make any sense. You were arguing that you're not able to tell exactly where someone is when you hit someone with a grenade and the hitmarker shows up. If I throw a grenade, and hit someone, I KNOW where they are. No more guesswork is involved. So yes, I don't understand a single thing you were talking about because I can't wrap my head around the fact someone wouldn't be able to tell exactly where someone is after getting confirmation that you hit someone with a grenade and a indicator pops up. 

 

On to this current post, yes, it should be skillful to know where someone is. It's called having awareness. It's not a strategic decision to throw a grenade. How much strategy is involved into seeing your teammates in location X, Y, and Z and throwing a prediction grenade into [insert general area] and getting confirmation that someone is there based simply off your educated guess? The damage you dealt to the individual by throwing that grenade should be all the reward you need. And how in the world are grenade hitmarkers the most technically demanding method of learning where someone is? There isn't a ton of thought that goes into throwing a grenade into a room. You either think someone is in a location and you make the decision to throw the grenade. The only execution required is pressing the grenade button..

 

Your block on Getting Direct LOS is not exactly true for sacrifice. Just because you saw someone, does not 1:1 mean that they saw you. Action and skill level required, none? Seriously? Are you saying that map positioning takes no skill at all in Halo, when it's literally one of the most important aspects of Halo, if not, the most?

 

It does not take a "medium" level of execution skill to throw a grenade near someone in this game; especially compared to map positioning. The only argument you kind of have a point on is the number of opponents part, but that's rather irrelevant to the discussion. No one, is going to intentionally walk on to a grenade to get the hit marker in the hopes that an enemy will rush you down and your teammates will team up on him. There's no way that has even been thought of. 

 

The burden is not "on me" to determine why by actually getting a line of sight on someone is more fair than throwing a grenade wherever you want and getting enemy position. You're stating this as if you're being heavily agreed with right now. The burden is on you to make anyone else believe the grenade hitmarkers are good for the game. There's a reason why so many people were agreeing with my post.

 

And please get out of here with the semantics lol. You know exactly what I meant. Plenty of times you get touched in this game by grenades that barely nick you and gives your location away. But if you hit someone with a grenade and can't tell where they are based off that, like I said, there's an issue with your gameplay that you need to address. The grenade radius is pretty big, but you make it sound like it's the size of the entire map if you can't tell where someone is after getting a hitmarker.

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I don't really agree that we have a nade spam problem per se, but it's probably worth talking about. My feeling is that we have a Splinter problem, but that's just me.

 

I think people get really stuck on the splinter grenade problem. Because when it happens it is really annoying and there isn't much you can do about it as a player. So players rage about it.

 

But personally I think if you look at it statistically splinter grenades wouldn't contribute to nearly as many deaths as people think and that frag grenades would make up the majority of grenade kills (in fact go look at scrim and pro league results on halo5arena or halodatahive and sort by weapon kills to prove it). This is why I personally feel, if players feel there is a problem with the overall usage of grenades (ie. it is dominating to much of the balanced triangle) then we need to reduce the number of grenades on map and/or off spawn.

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Maybe your argument got stuck in your throat?

 

 

Did you ever play Halo PC? It's okay, you don't have to respond. We already know the answer.

I've never been more upset to be out of negs

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CSGO, LoL, and Dota all have one competitive gamemode.

Two of them are MOBAS and the other is the most competitive FPS out there. GOW is a console game that doesn't have that much of a meta and it only has one competitive gamemode right now, I don't see it having a lot of success in the long run.

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As a diehard CE player, I'm not even joking: i literally just reflex gagged

Are we gagging because Halo PC, because he likes hitmarkers or because he likes grenade hitmarkers?

 

Because I like hitmarkers for weapons.

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I think people get really stuck on the splinter grenade problem. Because when it happens it is really annoying and there isn't much you can do about it as a player. So players rage about it.

 

But personally I think if you look at it statistically splinter grenades wouldn't contribute to nearly as many deaths as people think and that frag grenades would make up the majority of grenade kills (in fact go look at scrim and pro league results on halo5arena or halodatahive and sort by weapon kills to prove it). This is why I personally feel, if players feel there is a problem with the overall usage of grenades (ie. it is dominating to much of the balanced triangle) then we need to reduce the number of grenades on map and/or off spawn.

 

Agree on all counts. I think Splinters are a specific balance issue, which is to say that they're too easy and powerful for the number of kills that they comprise, even if that's a small fraction of the total. Tons of people die to frags, but those kills were harder to earn, and thus not problematic. If people think too many people are dying from grenades in general, that's a golden triangle problem. I don't think we have a golden triangle problem though. Maybe that's because I like having grenades be a huge part of the sandbox though, like they used to be in CE. They've been de-emphasized from 2-4 if you ask me.

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It's not a strategic decision to throw a grenade. How much strategy is involved into seeing your teammates in location X, Y, and Z and throwing a prediction grenade into [insert general area] and getting confirmation that someone is there based simply off your educated guess? The damage you dealt to the individual by throwing that grenade should be all the reward you need.

You two can argue it out all day, but I want to say something to this.

 

It very much is a strategic decision to throw a grenade. You might not think it is a very difficult or smart decision, but it is one. And saying it is an "educated guess" is disingenuous. There are MANY reasons why someone might throw that grenade that are far more thought out then an "educated guess". We routinely discuss map knowledge, does that not play into when and where you throw a grenade? Finally saying the damage dealt is enough reward is questionable. Grenades don't always (in most cases don't) 1 hit kill. So you hit someone with a grenade, they get weak and they run away. Not much reward there.

 

I have no stake in this discussion. I don't believe I know what is right or wrong. I don't think anyone here truly does either. I DO think both sides are making thought provoking posts. And I just hope everyone can keep it civil.

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Grenade hit markers shouldn't even be discussed right now. Its WAY down in the priority list.

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Hitmarkers are the new topic that I have to scroll past today I see

 

Leave Optic already so we have something worth talking about.

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You two can argue it out all day, but I want to say something to this.

 

It very much is a strategic decision to throw a grenade. You might not think it is a very difficult or smart decision, but it is one. And saying it is an "educated guess" is disingenuous. There are MANY reasons why someone might throw that grenade that are far more thought out then an "educated guess". We routinely discuss map knowledge, does that not play into when and where you throw a grenade? Finally saying the damage dealt is enough reward is questionable. Grenades don't always (in most cases don't) 1 hit kill. So you hit someone with a grenade, they get weak and they run away. Not much reward there.

 

I have no stake in this discussion. I don't believe I know what is right or wrong. I don't think anyone here truly does either. I DO think both sides are making thought provoking posts. And I just hope everyone can keep it civil.

 

If you hit someone with a grenade and they run away, you've just been given the reward of being able to gain control of an area/map position. A lot of reward there. If they challenge you, regardless if it takes it down to one shot or not, you at that point, have the health advantage. There's a lot of reward involved in hitting someone with a grenade.

 

But yeah as far as the argument goes, if he wants to continue we can continue in the H5 thread or something. I hate discussions on mechanics like this in this thread.

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Guys, please take all settings related discussion to the HCS Pro League Fall 2016 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion thread from this moment forward.

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Yes, I don't understand the arguments because they literally don't make any sense. You were arguing that you're not able to tell exactly where someone is when you hit someone with a grenade and the hitmarker shows up. If I throw a grenade, and hit someone, I KNOW where they are. No more guesswork is involved. So yes, I don't understand a single thing you were talking about because I can't wrap my head around the fact someone wouldn't be able to tell exactly where someone is after getting confirmation that you hit someone with a grenade and a indicator pops up. 

 

On to this current post, yes, it should be skillful to know where someone is. It's called having awareness. It's not a strategic decision to throw a grenade. How much strategy is involved into seeing your teammates in location X, Y, and Z and throwing a prediction grenade into [insert general area] and getting confirmation that someone is there based simply off your educated guess? The damage you dealt to the individual by throwing that grenade should be all the reward you need. And how in the world are grenade hitmarkers the most technically demanding method of learning where someone is? There isn't a ton of thought that goes into throwing a grenade into a room. You either think someone is in a location and you make the decision to throw the grenade. The only execution required is pressing the grenade button..

 

Your block on Getting Direct LOS is not exactly true for sacrifice. Just because you saw someone, does not 1:1 mean that they saw you. Action and skill level required, none? Seriously? Are you saying that map positioning takes no skill at all in Halo, when it's literally one of the most important aspects of Halo, if not, the most?

 

It does not take a "medium" level of execution skill to throw a grenade near someone in this game; especially compared to map positioning. The only argument you kind of have a point on is the number of opponents part, but that's rather irrelevant to the discussion. No one, is going to intentionally walk on to a grenade to get the hit marker in the hopes that an enemy will rush you down and your teammates will team up on him. There's no way that has even been thought of. 

 

The burden is not "on me" to determine why by actually getting a line of sight on someone is more fair than throwing a grenade wherever you want and getting enemy position. You're stating this as if you're being heavily agreed with right now. The burden is on you to make anyone else believe the grenade hitmarkers are good for the game. There's a reason why so many people were agreeing with my post.

 

And please get out of here with the semantics lol. You know exactly what I meant. Plenty of times you get touched in this game by grenades that barely nick you and gives your location away. But if you hit someone with a grenade and can't tell where they are based off that, like I said, there's an issue with your gameplay that you need to address. The grenade radius is pretty big, but you make it sound like it's the size of the entire map if you can't tell where someone is after getting a hitmarker.

 

Let's say that I'm considering pushing Rail 1 on Rig. I only have a BR, and the other team has a Shotgun. I don't want to reveal myself, so I'm standing on the steps in long-hall, and I bank a grenade off of the doorway into Rail 1. And I get a hitmarker!

 

This is a really common scenario. I think it's a pretty fair and generous one to raise as the example, because you're quite close to the position in question. (It's not as if you're throwing grenades from your base into Treehouse or something). 

 

Now, me and my team know there's a gun in Rail 1. I could push into Rail 1 by myself to chase the guy that got hit. Would this be a good idea? Well, it actually depends on where exactly that guy is going to be as I actually push through the doorway. 

- If he stays hiding in the near corner, then I can probably put 2 shots on him before he can AR / Shotgun me

- If he pressed up all the way to the doorway with a shotgun, then I should definitely NOT push in

- If he thrusted out the backdoor and called out to look at Rail 1, then I also shouldn't push, because there may well be somebody E2 looking at me. I could get called out, lose my shields, and then dropped on from somebody Rail 2 or something

 

So guess what, it really matters EXACTLY where that guy is. He could easily have been anywhere in that room and showed up on the hitmarker. By the time I actually get to the doorway, he could be out the back, pressed up on the door, still in the corner, or out the window. And this is Rail 1 we're talking about! It's not exactly a paragon of movement options.

 

The fact that I don't know where he will be means that I have some information, but not enough to make a push. I would probably just call him out and see if somebody outside could get a LOS into BR base area and clean him up if he runs out the back.

 

 

 

The point of this anecdote is to show you that in a game of milliseconds, the certainty with which you know somebody's position is absolutely relevant. There is a difference between seeing somebody on a deathcam, and knowing they were in a circular region, circa 2 seconds ago. The semantics matter.

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Guys, please take all settings related discussion to the HCS Pro League Fall 2016 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion thread from this moment forward.

 

Hahahahahaha

 

 

Ok, guilty as charged.

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You can scroll past it, but I guarantee someone will throw a nade and find it again for you   :kappa:

You think you're funny m8????

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Two of them are MOBAS and the other is the most competitive FPS out there. GOW is a console game that doesn't have that much of a meta and it only has one competitive gamemode right now, I don't see it having a lot of success in the long run.

What does it being a console game have to do with anything? The game and I believe this gamemode are brand new. This is the best decision in the long run imo.

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