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CyReN

HCS Pro League Fall 2016 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion‏

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This is not what Randomness is.

 

It's unpredictable AT FIRST, but this I why pros play hundreds upon hundreds of games against each other. Eventually, you learn player tendencies. If there's a mid, a high, a left liw, and a right low path out...you'll learn who goes low, who goes high, who challenges anyway...

 

You build the nuances. The meta evolves.

If someone has 5 different ways to get somewhere, 3 or 4 different areas to hide in, 2 different speeds to get there with, 3 different jumping techniques to get places, that's randomness if I've ever seen it. I will happen to pick one way to cover, another person will happen to go a different way. Can someone accurately say "I think this person will bump jump here, and he'll be sprinting and be there in 5 seconds time"? Sure. But flanking someone in Halo 5 sure isn't the art it used to be. Did you watch that Coliseum CTF no radar game? Yeah it will get better if people spend more time without radar, but it was just a whole bunch of random kills and deaths, more than I've ever seen. And I wish I knew the name of whoever it is that will potentially push me and be able to do the calculations in my head all in 5 seconds time.

 

The reason chess is one of the few games with no randomness in it is because you know exactly what your enemy can do at all times, and he knows exactly what you can do. Halo 5 is nothing close to that.

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As a diehard CE player, I'm not even joking: i literally just reflex gagged

 

Maybe your argument got stuck in your throat?

 

 

Did you ever play Halo PC? It's okay, you don't have to respond. We already know the answer.

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It comes down to this: hit markers without line of sight dont make sense. People complain about grenade spam in this game. I would directly attribute that to the hit markers.

 

I have zero issue with LoS hit markers

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Have missed the past 5 days, can anyone provide a quick summary?

 

Pro League, rule changes, crazy shit?

 

Thanks y'all

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If 343 isnt already fixing the servers, aiming lag and ghost meeles we are truly doomed. Nobody but the devs are responsible for that kind of stuff and its already widely known.

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No idea why Sebastian is going off the rails and swearing at you @@-DeucEy-

 

I thought your posts have been very respectful thus far

 

I don't know man, I was pretty sure I didn't say anything condescending to him in the slightest, but I guess. I feel like people take things a bit too personal at times. Like, if you disagree state why. I don't understand how people can't just have a normal conversation without freaking out lol. 

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If someone has 5 different ways to get somewhere, 3 or 4 different areas to hide in, 2 different speeds to get there with, 3 different jumping techniques to get places, that's randomness if I've ever seen it. I will happen to pick one way to cover, another person will happen to go a different way. Can someone accurately say "I think this person will bump jump here, and he'll be sprinting and be there in 5 seconds time"? Sure. But flanking someone in Halo 5 sure isn't the art it used to be. Did you watch that Coliseum CTF no radar game? Yeah it will get better if people spend more time without radar, but it was just a whole bunch of random kills and deaths, more than I've ever seen. And I wish I knew the name of whoever it is that will potentially push me and be able to do the calculations in my head all in 5 seconds time.

 

The reason chess is one of the few games with no randomness in it is because you know exactly what your enemy can do at all times, and he knows exactly what you can do. Halo 5 is nothing close to that.

Thats still not random, its just complex.

 

The AR spread is random.

 

This is an example where the positioning of the opposing player matters. If there are 6 places the player could pop up a good player will position themselves to be vulnerable to that as little as possible. A worse player wont. Thats not random

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It comes down to this: hit markers without line of sight dont make sense. People complain about grenade spam in this game. I would directly attribute that to the hit markers.

 

I have zero issue with LoS hit markers

 

I agree with this. Hit markers give positive feedback that, yes, your bullets are landing. It's a good feeling, and I like the gratification lol.

 

There's nothing more annoying than hiding in a room to get your health back, hoping the enemy doesn't know where you are, and a grenade lands 20 feet away and the explosion caresses your shields, resetting their recharge, AND alerting the enemy that you're still there. It's a double whammy. If you want to hurt me with a grenade, then throw a good grenade and know that you threw it at the right angle. But don't fish with grenades and hope you get lucky. 

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If someone has 5 different ways to get somewhere, 3 or 4 different areas to hide in, 2 different speeds to get there with, 3 different jumping techniques to get places, that's randomness if I've ever seen it.

Sounds like choice to me...but idk.

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People have rose colored glasses on about Gears right now. I don't see any amazing viewership, and when the game first releases is when it is almost always the highest. I hope Gears works out well, but I don't expect much to come of it. I've seen better viewership in Halo and people want to jump off building...

I don't think that's the argument.

 

The argument is that Gears setup is more conducive to growing their Esports scene than Halo5s.

 

Halo already has a history of being a huge esport. And the current setup squanders potential. The live event focus of the Gears Pro Circuit makes it more realistic for more players and organizations to get involved. It also inherently makes for a better viewing experience.

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I wish I knew the name of whoever it is that will potentially push me and be able to do the calculations in my head all in 5 seconds time.

Lunchbox

 

The reason chess is one of the few games with no randomness in it is because you know exactly what your enemy can do at all times, and he knows exactly what you can do. Halo 5 is nothing close to that.

If chess didn't have "randomness" by the definition you are using, both players would make the exact same moves every single game because they start off in the same position with the same information.

 

But players make sub-optimal moves to counter this. It is how a human beat Deep Blue.

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It comes down to this: hit markers without line of sight dont make sense. People complain about grenade spam in this game. I would directly attribute that to the hit markers.

 

Idk, I feel like in a lot of situations players are tossing grenades to locations in maps that they have either;

  1. Been given a call out that an enemy is there. They might not see them personally but they know someone is there.
  2. Common area that they know/expect an enemy to be at. Map and opponent knowledge.

In situation 1, to a spectator not hearing comms it might seem random but probably isn't. And in the 2nd case, sure they might not know 100% that a player was going to be in that location but they are using intuition and map knowledge to predict. And if they are correct they are informed so by hit markers.

 

This behavior is compounded I feel due to the amount of grenades.

 

The problem I think a lot of people have with hit markers isn't "informing someone of an opponent location". It's more about "knowing that the opponent is now weak" thus making it easier to decide to collapse on a player. While before hit markers were a thing you really didn't know that the player you were about to collapse on was weak or not from your grenade.

 

In the end I think you are right there is an issue with providing information that the opponent is weak from a grenade that hits an opponent that was not in their LoS.

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I don't think that's the argument.

 

The argument is that Gears setup is more conducive to growing their Esports scene than Halo5s.

 

Halo already has a history of being a huge esport. And the current setup squanders potential. The live event focus of the Gears Pro Circuit makes it more realistic for more players and organizations to get involved. It also inherently makes for a better viewing experience.

 

Time will tell I suppose. I don't follow Gears (the game gives me a headache trying to watch it) and I haven't played it since the original. They seem to have put good effort into esports features but I've seen nothing to date that makes me think that Gears will catch on in any large capacity. And I just don't see how a game that has a potential audience that seems rather small will ever sustain any of what they are trying to do while being profitable. Because in the end orgs, tournament organizers, MS, Coalition, and anyone else involved will pull the plug if money isn't there.

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ridiculous unquotable post with green text

 

I'm starting to realize why you say "what are you even arguing here" so often. It's not because you're trying to be dismissive - you literally don't understand the arguments.

 

 

 

So let me try again. You're saying that it is too easy ("cheap") to gather information by throwing grenades. Who told you it had to be skillful? Why does it matter how difficult it is? It's a strategic decision. The reason you reward the player with information is because they thought to do it at all, not because it's especially difficult. It's like you're arguing that the Halo 5 overshield is stupid because all you had to do was walk up to it and hold B. The most hilarious thing is that on the spectrum of things that give you information about enemy players, hitting them with a grenade is actually by far the most technically demanding! Walking into a room and looking around is a strategic decision that may or may not be a good choice strategically, but it's physically the easiest thing in the game to do.

 

Let me break it down even more simply:

Getting direct LOS

Foreknowledge required: Which room the opponent is in

Action, and skill-level required: Walk into the room and look around (None)

Information gathered: Exact number and positions of players in the room

Information sacrificed: Your exact position

Resource cost: None

 

Getting a grenade hitmarker

Foreknowledge required: Which specific area the opponent is in

Action, and skill-level required: Place a grenade so close to their feet that they cannot thrust away from it (Medium)

Information gathered: Position of opponent to within one grenade radius, unknown number of opponents

Information sacrificed: Your approximate position, depending on how much of the nade trajectory they saw

Resource cost: 1 grenade

 

The burden is on you to explain why one of these is more fair than the other. Got it?

 

 

You alternately describe grenade the grenade radius as being "like 5 feet" and "humongous". Which one is it? If they're huge, then the information they give you is less precise, because you could be anywhere inside of the blast radius, even at the very edge. If they're tiny, than they're easier to avoid. They cannot be both. Comprende?

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No idea why Sebastian is going off the rails and swearing at you @@-DeucEy-

 

I thought your posts have been very respectful thus far

 

Because he's at least reasonable enough that he might actually concede he was being unfair to my argument. argalactable et al. are such demagogues that as soon as you lay down the law they just change the subject.

 

 

So sorry DeucEy, I recognize that you didn't deserve that response in isolation, but there is a congregation of posters and posting styles that, collectively, did.

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You think people just throw RANDOM grenades without any sense of prediction or idea of what they're checking.

How hung up do you want to get on the word "random"? Fucking damn.

 

Sometimes I throw grenades despite not knowing whether or not I know someone is in there and look for a hitmarker.

 

Yes, believe it or not, that happens. Now it's up to you whether or not me throwing that nade "earned" me information.

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Most recent big post

 

Can I attempt to play devils advocate here?

 

 

 

 

 

tumblr_mv6sqlF4yM1r3yxp8o1_500.jpg

 

 

 

Thanks. 

 

But seriously I think part of the problem with nade hit markers is how many damn nades are on some of the maps in the first place. If nade placement were more difficult and gathering said information had a higher cost maybe it wouldn't be as much of an issue. For me I'd rank the grenades as follows in terms of strength:

 

Splinter

Frag

Plasma

 

To me this means Splinters should be least present and where they are should always bee contested or power positions. Frags can be a little more present but still should be in placements where players have to go out of their way to get them. Plasma's are weakest imo and could be spawn in base for example on Truth, but maybe only spawn 1 since it's so convenient to pick up. 

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Time will tell I suppose. I don't follow Gears (the game gives me a headache trying to watch it) and I haven't played it since the original. They seem to have put good effort into esports features but I've seen nothing to date that makes me think that Gears will catch on in any large capacity. And I just don't see how a game that has a potential audience that seems rather small will ever sustain any of what they are trying to do while being profitable. Because in the end orgs, tournament organizers, MS, Coalition, and anyone else involved will pull the plug if money isn't there.

For most games, Esports is nothing more than a marketing investment. The league itself isn't the potential money maker. I'm sure they'd all like to make money from selling ads during broadcasts, but more than anything, it's an attempt to put product in front of their audience to sell. If having a pro circuit brings in more game sales revenues and Microtransactions revenues than it costs, then the platform holders will be happy.

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Let me break it down even more simply:

Getting direct LOS

Foreknowledge required: Which room the opponent is in

Action, and skill-level required: Walk into the room and look around (None)

Information gathered: Exact number and positions of players in the room

Sacrificed: Your exact position, the power of a position you could have just thrown a grenade from, your life if you were killed, your teams setup if being down a player gave a successful push to the enemy team

Resource cost: potentially, the game

 

Getting a grenade hitmarker

Foreknowledge required: Which specific area the opponent is in

Action, and skill-level required: Place a grenade so close to their feet that they cannot thrust away from it (Medium), you can hold six of these things and pick them up all over the map so you have many of these to spam around

Information gathered: Position of opponent to within one grenade radius, unknown number of opponents

Information sacrificed: Your approximate position, depending on how much of the nade trajectory they saw

Resource cost: 1 grenade

 

 

I made some edits

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For most games, Esports is nothing more than a marketing investment. I'm sure they'd all like to make money from selling ads during broadcasts, but more than anything, it's an attempt to put product in front of their audience to sell. If having a pro circuit brings in more game sales revenues and Microtransactions revenues than it costs, then the platform holders will be happy.

 

I've been measuring eSports success all wrong this whole time. Halo eSports is a success then?  :kappa:

JK

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How hung up do you want to get on the word "random"? Fucking damn.

 

Sometimes I throw grenades despite not knowing whether or not I know someone is in there and look for a hitmarker.

 

Yes, believe it or not, that happens. Now it's up to you whether or not me throwing that nade "earned" me information.

 

I'm hung up on it because it's being used to cast aspersion on the argument without any actual hedging. You say throwing "random nades" and it conjures an image of just throwing things with no foreknowledge or expectation of hitting people, as if every grenade you throw has a 25% chance of hitting somebody. The reality is that you have to throw a really accurate grenade to get that information. It's simply too easy to thrust away from a grenade that's not destined to explode really really close to you. 

 

 

 

But seriously I think part of the problem with nade hit markers is how many damn nades are on some of the maps in the first place. If nade placement were more difficult and gathering said information had a higher cost maybe it wouldn't be as much of an issue. For me I'd rank the grenades as follows in terms of strength:

 

Splinter

Frag

Plasma

 

To me this means Splinters should be least present and where they are should always bee contested or power positions. Frags can be a little more present but still should be in placements where players have to go out of their way to get them. Plasma's are weakest imo and could be spawn in base for example on Truth, but maybe only spawn 1 since it's so convenient to pick up. 

 

Yeah, this is definitely an interesting question. One of the things that makes it tough is that players respawn with frags, so if you make them to hard to pick up, you're kind of adding a rubber-band for players that die a lot. It's sort of like non-regenerating health. Halo lets you go on a killing spree by bringing you back up to parity with spawning players once you've won a fight. Other players spawn in with the privilege of a brand new set of frags, so shouldn't you, in the same spirit, not be punished for staying alive?

 

 

A reduction in the Splinter supply works better here, since nobody's spawning up with them.

 

 

I don't really agree that we have a nade spam problem per se, but it's probably worth talking about. My feeling is that we have a Splinter problem, but that's just me.

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