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HCS Pro League Fall 2016 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion‏

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Open brackets are not easy to run, and it is very formulaic with schedule planning. The pivots are:

  • How many days do you have to operate the bracket
  • How many hours per day 
  • How many teams
  • How many stations (station count must adhere to 8, 16, 32, etc for Open)

When you don't start pro play in parallel with Open bracket, you add exponential time to the event and impair your programming:

  • The 'next bracket' cannot start until Open completely finishes. This adds unnecessary rounds compared to a pool play in parallel scenario where teams that win losers bracket quarters go to championship bracket losers and winners bracket semis automatically make it to Pool play.
  • You cannot start Pro Matches for stream until Open finishes. This means Pros sit on their ass until late Saturday night or Sunday. Why would you run a premiere event and have your stars on the broadcast bench until the end?
  • A deficiency of stations means they will have more heats per round until later rounds. This is a huge barrier to schedule efficiency.

Here is what they should do:

  • Pro teams start in pools, 12 total teams. 4 stations are dedicated to pool play, 1 per pool (counts main stage). Starts Friday.
  • Open bracket runs in parallel to Pool play. 16 stations are dedicated to open bracket. Starts Friday.
  • The 4 semi final Open bracket teams do NOT play out their matches and move to Pool Play
  • The 4 teams from loser bracket quarters go to Championship losers bracket
  • 2 teams advance from each pool to Championship winners bracket
  • 2 teams fall from Pools to Championship losers bracket
  • Pools run Friday/Saturday, Open runs Friday/Saturday, Championship bracket begins Saturday evening and finishes on Sunday. 

This format allows you to have a scalable and massive open bracket while having a fully programmed out main stage + Bravo stream broadcast with pro matches. Win. 

 

who do i want running halo?

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Open brackets are not easy to run, and it is very formulaic with schedule planning. The pivots are:

  • How many days do you have to operate the bracket
  • How many hours per day
  • How many teams
  • How many stations (station count must adhere to 8, 16, 32, etc for Open)
When you don't start pro play in parallel with Open bracket, you add exponential time to the event and impair your programming:
  • The 'next bracket' cannot start until Open completely finishes. This adds unnecessary rounds compared to a pool play in parallel scenario where teams that win losers bracket quarters go to championship bracket losers and winners bracket semis automatically make it to Pool play.
  • You cannot start Pro Matches for stream until Open finishes. This means Pros sit on their ass until late Saturday night or Sunday. Why would you run a premiere event and have your stars on the broadcast bench until the end?
  • A deficiency of stations means they will have more heats per round until later rounds. This is a huge barrier to schedule efficiency.
Here is what they should do:
  • Pro teams start in pools, 12 total teams. 4 stations are dedicated to pool play, 1 per pool (counts main stage). Starts Friday.
  • Open bracket runs in parallel to Pool play. 16 stations are dedicated to open bracket. Starts Friday.
  • The 4 semi final Open bracket teams do NOT play out their matches and move to Pool Play
  • The 4 teams from loser bracket quarters go to Championship losers bracket
  • 2 teams advance from each pool to Championship winners bracket
  • 2 teams fall from Pools to Championship losers bracket
  • Pools run Friday/Saturday, Open runs Friday/Saturday, Championship bracket begins Saturday evening and finishes on Sunday.
This format allows you to have a scalable and massive open bracket while having a fully programmed out main stage + Bravo stream broadcast with pro matches. Win.
Wow thanks for the incite!!!

 

That's the type of solution you don't come up with without experience. I imagine you guys didn't become masters of logistics overnight.

 

 

Actually, reading this post made me MORE appreciative of pgl's effort. Yes they fell short, but many were just trashing them for being terrible and not caring, but it really looks like they tried their best, but were just unwittingly unprepared for something of this magnitude. I imagine mlg has had growing pains like this before too.

 

I would love to get some mlg run halo tournaments, but i also hope pgl learns from this experience and improves to the point where they are actually a decent alternative.

 

Esports would be better off if more TOs could deliver like mlg

 

What else do you tweet to a staff that pushed through such a task? "Yeah you survived, but you are terrible. GG"
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Open brackets are not easy to run, and it is very formulaic with schedule planning. The pivots are:

  • How many days do you have to operate the bracket
  • How many hours per day 
  • How many teams
  • How many stations (station count must adhere to 8, 16, 32, etc for Open)

When you don't start pro play in parallel with Open bracket, you add exponential time to the event and impair your programming:

  • The 'next bracket' cannot start until Open completely finishes. This adds unnecessary rounds compared to a pool play in parallel scenario where teams that win losers bracket quarters go to championship bracket losers and winners bracket semis automatically make it to Pool play.
  • You cannot start Pro Matches for stream until Open finishes. This means Pros sit on their ass until late Saturday night or Sunday. Why would you run a premiere event and have your stars on the broadcast bench until the end?
  • A deficiency of stations means they will have more heats per round until later rounds. This is a huge barrier to schedule efficiency.

Here is what they should do:

  • Pro teams start in pools, 12 total teams. 4 stations are dedicated to pool play, 1 per pool (counts main stage). Starts Friday.
  • Open bracket runs in parallel to Pool play. 16 stations are dedicated to open bracket. Starts Friday.
  • The 4 semi final Open bracket teams do NOT play out their matches and move to Pool Play
  • The 4 teams from loser bracket quarters go to Championship losers bracket
  • 2 teams advance from each pool to Championship winners bracket
  • 2 teams fall from Pools to Championship losers bracket
  • Pools run Friday/Saturday, Open runs Friday/Saturday, Championship bracket begins Saturday evening and finishes on Sunday. 

This format allows you to have a scalable and massive open bracket while having a fully programmed out main stage + Bravo stream broadcast with pro matches. Win. 

 

This would also guarantee that a team like FAB wouldn't be wasting their time taking a trip overseas.  More days of playing against against more teams if im reading this right?  3 series of pool play then at least 1 more in the Champ bracket, instead of possible only 2 if they lose twice in the champ. bracket.

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To be honest I'm glad OG didn't attend, it gave Liquid a chance to rise to the occasion, if not we would have waited until 5 or 6 am est to watch the two teams we already know were going to get there  :)

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This would also guarantee that a team like FAB wouldn't be wasting their time taking a trip overseas.  More days of playing against against more teams if im reading this right?  3 series of pool play then at least 1 more in the Champ bracket, instead of possible only 2 if they lose twice in the champ. bracket.

 

Correct. Also if you wanted to add in international Pro teams the pools could be expanded from 12 pro teams + 4 open teams to 16 pro teams + 4 open teams.

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Wow thanks for the incite!!!

 

That's the type of solution you don't come up with without experience. I imagine you guys didn't become masters of logistics overnight.

 

 

Actually, reading this post made me MORE appreciative of pgl's effort. Yes they fell short, but many were just trashing them for being terrible and not caring, but it really looks like they tried their best, but were just unwittingly unprepared for something of this magnitude. I imagine mlg has had growing pains like this before too.

 

I would love to get some mlg run halo tournaments, but i also hope pgl learns from this experience and improves to the point where they are actually a decent alternative.

 

Esports would be better off if more TOs could deliver like mlg

 

I can kind of agree with you, but at this point in the game, we are 2 years into HCS and 343 has been involved with this scene since Halo 4 (and the tail end of Reach if I remember correctly.) THis says to me that no one cared to learn how this worked while MLG was running events and they were planning to pull the plug on that. At what point should we stop making excuses for poor performance like this when we know it can and should be so much better

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I can kind of agree with you, but at this point in the game, we are 2 years into HCS and 343 has been involved with this scene since Halo 4 (and the tail end of Reach if I remember correctly.) THis says to me that no one cared to learn how this worked while MLG was running events and they were planning to pull the plug on that. At what point should we stop making excuses for poor performance like this when we know it can and should be so much better

I'm not making excuses. I think pgl bit off more than they could chew, and 343 has consistently overlooked better options (mlg).

 

I'm just saying pgl could never become a 'better option' without experience and that i hope that in the future they can transfer this humbling experience into being a better TO.

 

I think the idea that you can just copy mlg is oversimplification of what it takes up run an open. It sounds like a logistical nightmare, One that only experience can prepare you for.

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I'm hoping that this event shows 343 that they need an experienced TO like UGC or MLG to run these events. Keep the casters though. They are one of the high points of this season

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I feel like we have all bludgeoned this dead horse into a meaty mess but...

 

-We need LAN support (if not integrated LAN, at least a separate client that than be used by anybody not just those sanctioned by 343/MS)

-We need MLG.  I would love to support these smaller TOs, but at this point Halo needs the attention and experience that only MLG can provide.  Its not about disrespecting smaller TOs, its about putting halo in a situation where it can become a force again.

-We need separate settings from "Vanilla".  This experiment has failed. make it so.

-We need a true social experience in this game that is only fun.  I don't know about anybody else, but i became a fan of competitive by stumbling upon it while playing fun, social games with friends. 

-we need a stable fucking game

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Having 4 teams at the pro league finals really does suck. Would have been so exciting to see all of the pros playing that weekend. 

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I feel like we have all bludgeoned this dead horse into a meaty mess but...

 

-We need LAN support (if not integrated LAN, at least a separate client that than be used by anybody not just those sanctioned by 343/MS)

-We need MLG. I would love to support these smaller TOs, but at this point Halo needs the attention and experience that only MLG can provide. Its not about disrespecting smaller TOs, its about putting halo in a situation where it can become a force again.

-We need separate settings from "Vanilla". This experiment has failed. make it so.

-We need a true social experience in this game that is only fun. I don't know about anybody else, but i became a fan of competitive by stumbling upon it while playing fun, social games with friends.

-we need a stable fucking game

No lies detected. I cant see a reason why a standalone client couldn't be a thing. It would theoretically be better than LAN.

 

This alone would have opened so many doors to smaller tos... who otherwise needed to pray for good servers or hope for 343s blessing.

 

This game could have been much more popular competitively if local tournaments were logistically plausible since back when it launched.

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@ In your opinion, is it realistically logistically possible to add 2 more teams to the Fall Finals by December 10th so there is a:

 

4 team double-elim relegation tourney

6 Team Double elim Champ tourney (instead of 4 team)

 

It seems to me that the answer is "yes", but obviously i could be overlooking something.

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With only 8 teams in Pro League it makes it hard to make the regular season 'worth it' if there is no cut off. That leaves you with a weird 6 team playoff or a small 4 team playoff, neither is ideal. With online leagues the flaw is obviously the playing field: Online is not the same competitive experience as LAN so an argument could be made that all teams make the playoffs. Overall the situation is not ideal but you need to make lemonade somehow. If the scenario you're facing is 4 teams in playoffs and a relegation tournament, at a bare minimum every match should be streamed. 

What would you say about an 8 team Finals. Top 6 + 2 relegation team winners? 

What makes it "Worth it" to do well in the Online pro league: Seeding, Money, Not risking a relegation.

With how close the competition is this season, all these teams should have the opportunity to play on a LAN. And with how well the Challenger teams are looking, it would be a great incentive to kick ass in that league and have a chance at Finals money and a LAN. The top teams in the Pro League shouldn't have an issue with the Relegation winners in the LAN, if you are the best, prove it. Just my opinion tho  :simms:

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With only 8 teams in Pro League it makes it hard to make the regular season 'worth it' if there is no cut off. That leaves you with a weird 6 team playoff or a small 4 team playoff, neither is ideal. With online leagues the flaw is obviously the playing field: Online is not the same competitive experience as LAN so an argument could be made that all teams make the playoffs. Overall the situation is not ideal but you need to make lemonade somehow. If the scenario you're facing is 4 teams in playoffs and a relegation tournament, at a bare minimum every match should be streamed. 

 

I wish the relegation was played first then those winners joined the top 6. to make the regular season worth it, there should be a separate prize pool should be given for the top 4.  After seeing how good EG and ALG are on LAN, there is no way we can not give them a chance to compete

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With only 8 teams in Pro League it makes it hard to make the regular season 'worth it' if there is no cut off. That leaves you with a weird 6 team playoff or a small 4 team playoff, neither is ideal. With online leagues the flaw is obviously the playing field: Online is not the same competitive experience as LAN so an argument could be made that all teams make the playoffs. Overall the situation is not ideal but you need to make lemonade somehow. If the scenario you're facing is 4 teams in playoffs and a relegation tournament, at a bare minimum every match should be streamed. 

 

Well I guess I would make the case that in this scenario Top 6 would be the cutoff.  Don't let the teams that had to fight for their life in relegation compete in the champ bracket or (what i would like to see from a viewer perspective) make them start in the losers bracket.

 

Online results matter for seeding, prize money, and relegation avoidance.  I would rather see worlds have a little less money for prizing and have that money spread to the Pro League and other LANs, but i guess that's steering a little away from my initial question.

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What would you say about an 8 team Finals. Top 6 + 2 relegation team winners? 

What makes it "Worth it" to do well in the Online pro league: Seeding, Money, Not risking a relegation.

With how close the competition is this season, all these teams should have the opportunity to play on a LAN. And with how well the Challenger teams are looking, it would be a great incentive to kick ass in that league and have a chance at Finals money and a LAN. The top teams in the Pro League shouldn't have an issue with the Relegation winners in the LAN, if you are the best, prove it. Just my opinion tho  :simms:

 

I think that punishes the players that had to play through the entire regular season. The only way your idea works is if the players in regular season get a salary or each team gets a minimum prize purse for participating (i.e. each of the 8 teams gets $5,000 for competing and then top X make the playoffs with bottom Y going to relegation)

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Open brackets are not easy to run, and it is very formulaic with schedule planning. The pivots are:

  • How many days do you have to operate the bracket
  • How many hours per day 
  • How many teams
  • How many stations (station count must adhere to 8, 16, 32, etc for Open)

When you don't start pro play in parallel with Open bracket, you add exponential time to the event and impair your programming:

  • The 'next bracket' cannot start until Open completely finishes. This adds unnecessary rounds compared to a pool play in parallel scenario where teams that win losers bracket quarters go to championship bracket losers and winners bracket semis automatically make it to Pool play.
  • You cannot start Pro Matches for stream until Open finishes. This means Pros sit on their ass until late Saturday night or Sunday. Why would you run a premiere event and have your stars on the broadcast bench until the end?
  • A deficiency of stations means they will have more heats per round until later rounds. This is a huge barrier to schedule efficiency.

Here is what they should do:

  • Pro teams start in pools, 12 total teams. 4 stations are dedicated to pool play, 1 per pool (counts main stage). Starts Friday.
  • Open bracket runs in parallel to Pool play. 16 stations are dedicated to open bracket. Starts Friday.
  • The 4 semi final Open bracket teams do NOT play out their matches and move to Pool Play
  • The 4 teams from loser bracket quarters go to Championship losers bracket
  • 2 teams advance from each pool to Championship winners bracket
  • 2 teams fall from Pools to Championship losers bracket
  • Pools run Friday/Saturday, Open runs Friday/Saturday, Championship bracket begins Saturday evening and finishes on Sunday. 

This format allows you to have a scalable and massive open bracket while having a fully programmed out main stage + Bravo stream broadcast with pro matches. Win. 

 

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