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Which game had worse gameplay at launch, Reach or The 4?

What had worse gameplay at launch, Reach or The 4?  

223 members have voted

  1. 1. Which game had worse gameplay AT LAUNCH?

    • Reach
      96
    • The 4
      131


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As much as it may pain me to admit it, Reach's initial gameplay was simply more fundamentally flawed from the get go when compared to Halo 4. Halo 4's issues stemmed from the extra shit attached onto it in 343i's vain attempt to cater to a different type of audience while simultaneously adding depth to gameplay, both of which were general failures, but the gunplay itself wasn't altogether flawed and maps weren't altogether unbalanced even if they showed a lack in design creativity and structure. In contrast, Reach's core gameplay was flawed with the effect 100% bloom had on utility weapons and many initial maps were rather one sided, especially when coupled with certain persistent elements (I.e. Jetpack beats everything, and Armor Lock actually exists), or required significant changes to function (Arena Zealot, tho).

 

The important thing to remember, though, is that Reach came before Halo 4, so the gunplay fixes seen in Reach that were carried over and improved upon in Halo 4 were more or less an easy grab from 343i as a developer, and their failures in the overarching game design are what made Halo 4 the pile of shit it was, even if the Turbo update made it more tolerable. It could be argued that Bungie had much more experience with Halo, and therefore shouldn't have made the gunplay decisions that it did with Vanilla Reach, but ultimately Reach was a more solid game overall that merely required a reduction/removal in the bloom growth on the utility weapons' reticule and the addition of better maps (which were entirely possible with Forge, so that particular issue was a self-fixing problem to begin with).

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Halo Reach 4 had a lot of issues. But at a the most basic level (BR/DMR vs BR/DMR) it worked, the best player still one most gunfights, yes the bolt shot was annoying, yes the DMR was a god gun. But when you compare it to Reach. Reach had a bloom mechanic that made EVERY gun fight a coin flip, zero good maps, heavy controls, unbalanced Spartan abilties (something 343 atleast tried to rectify) am I the only one who remembers MLG Powerhouse (cutting of the bottom of the map) the bland colour pallet (I literally had zero depth perception on most forge maps).

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I should add a 3rd option for pre patch H2. Holy cow it was bad. Probably not as bad though.

 

I was gonna say pre-patch Halo 2 matchmaking was seriously cancer. Fuck SMG starts so hard. A lot of people forget how fucking awful that was. You go from the best weapon in the franchise in the Halo 1 pistol at spawn to the 2nd worst weapon in the franchise. You had to play like such a campy moron until you got a half decent weapon.

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Looking back, my friends and I were riding the hype of Halo 3 so that's probably why Reach was a better experience. I had people to play with at launch and the amazing Forge & Customs community balanced out the shitty aspects of Reach.

 

By the time The 4 came around, Halo was already dying at that point. The 4 just put the nail in the coffin. Nobody I knew played Halo anymore when it launched.

This too man, customs in reach were sooooo fun.

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Pace your Shots  :kappa:

And get hosed down by some kid spamming his DMR across countdown. Yeah. No.

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I was gonna say pre-patch Halo 2 matchmaking was seriously cancer. Fuck SMG starts so hard. A lot of people forget how fucking awful that was. You go from the best weapon in the franchise in the Halo 1 pistol at spawn to the 2nd worst weapon in the franchise. You had to play like such a campy moron until you got a half decent weapon.

 

Don't forget 6 melees to kill.

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I was gonna say pre-patch Halo 2 matchmaking was seriously cancer. Fuck SMG starts so hard. A lot of people forget how fucking awful that was. You go from the best weapon in the franchise in the Halo 1 pistol at spawn to the 2nd worst weapon in the franchise. You had to play like such a campy moron until you got a half decent weapon.

Bungie going from pistol starts in H1 to smg starts in H2 makes me want to think that all the good things about multiplayer are lucky accidents

 

I would personally say that default Reach was worse. the dmr bloom was horribly random. It was extremely weak unless you got a spammed 5 shot. the slow kill time with sprint was a wretched combination, the weak gun and no bleed-through melees allowed people to herp-a-derp or just run up to you with a sword, the maps were terrible, and the game had armor lock. I could at least have fun stomping on noobs in Halo 4 but that wasn't even very fun in default reach

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4 was so much worse to me. Everything I loved about Halo died with that game. CTF was ruined, you could throw the oddball across the map, descope removed, random powerweapons across the map, wallhacks and boltshot off spawn, zero redeeming maps, personal requisitions, terrible playlist selection, ruined infection, poor medals, no ranks, instant respawn, awful weapon balance, couldn't pick up grenades off bodies, hitmarkers from grenades, kill cams. I'm going to have ptsd if I keep going.

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Being able to drop the flag and kill someone with the Rockets is Random. You must use this dumb pistol that spawns from nowhere

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Bungie going from pistol starts in H1 to smg starts in H2 makes me want to think that all the good things about multiplayer are lucky accidents

 

I would personally say that default Reach was worse. the dmr bloom was horribly random. It was extremely weak unless you got a spammed 5 shot. the slow kill time with sprint was a wretched combination, the weak gun and no bleed-through melees allowed people to herp-a-derp or just run up to you with a sword, the maps were terrible, and the game had armor lock. I could at least have fun stomping on noobs in Halo 4 but that wasn't even very fun in default reach

Well technically the default spawn weapon in hce was the plasma pistol so it's not like smg spawns came out of nowhere.

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Have to say Halo 4, nothing worse then no weapons on map and infinity drops. Being able to grab a damage boost and sniper was just stupid. Also there was like no playlists available to play, Halo Reach still had team snipers and BTB, as long as team snipers is in the game then I'm fine.

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Well technically the default spawn weapon in hce was the plasma pistol so it's not like smg spawns came out of nowhere.

 

"Generic" starting weapon option is pistol/AR.

 

"Custom" was usually PP or something else depending on map/gametype IIRC.

 

And yes, a lot of default gametypes were "custom" setting but Slayer PRO was specifically the GENERIC option. Hardy Lebel knew the correct setting for competitive games. Only thing he screwed up was radar on by default but that is at least an option to turn off.

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Bungie going from pistol starts in H1 to smg starts in H2 makes me want to think that all the good things about multiplayer are lucky accidents

 

 

It was lucky in the sense that Bungie and MS didn't care that much about multiplayer for Halo 1. They gave like 3 guys (mostly Hardy Lebel) free rein to do whatever they wanted using the mechanics from the campaign. Hardy came from a PC arena shooter background so that's what he was inspired by in designing the multiplayer and the maps, while keeping the slower movement speed and adjusting the auto aim to be a little easier for console players with hard to use thumbsticks. He built a base with deep mechanics for anyone who wanted to get skilled at the game, then included like 15 whacky gametype variants for the casuals who just wanted to jump in and not take it seriously. That's how you correctly design a game for both types of players and also to ease potential competitive players into the multiplayer to begin with to eventually discover those deep mechanics and get curious into what else they can do to gain a competitive edge.

 

Bungie overall still deserves credit for the hilariously awesome Halo 1 physics engine and gameplay mechanics in campaign though. And projectile ballistics.

 

In Halo 2 they didn't give nearly as much freedom to one competent designer and Hardy mostly stuck to campaign level editing or some crap as a result, and they focus tested the multiplayer for noobs. The biggest mistake they ever made in competitive Halo history in my opinion. That's what set us on the path to Halo Reach/4 to begin with. Every iteration of Halo was like "How much worse can we make competitive before people eventually abandon it". Halo 4 was the breaking point. I mean you would have thought "Hey, this guy designed the deepest, longest lasting and most popular console shooter multiplayer of all time, maybe we should give him creative control again" but Bungie/MS chose not to in their infinite wisdom. Now the competitive scene is dead when it should be rising with the rest of esports.

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God damn this is hard.

 

I would've said H4 off the bat had I not been watching old Reach event streams recently. I forgot how severe bloom was. It was truly horrible. Add that on top of the derp beatdown system, horrible weapon layouts on the terrible maps (zealot had space, countdowns default weapon layout was pathetic, default Sanc had screen lag, all 3 maps had to be saved by MLG).

 

However, as someone said above, Halo 4 took almost everything that Halo was, flipped it upside down, and took a giant shit on it. Its' only merit is that the guns shot straight and the beatdown system was normal.

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It was lucky in the sense that Bungie and MS didn't care that much about multiplayer for Halo 1. They gave like 3 guys (mostly Hardy Lebel) free rein to do whatever they wanted using the mechanics from the campaign. Hardy came from a PC arena shooter background so that's what he was inspired by in designing the multiplayer and the maps, while keeping the slower movement speed and adjusting the auto aim to be a little easier for console players with hard to use thumbsticks. He built a base with deep mechanics for anyone who wanted to get skilled at the game, then included like 15 whacky gametype variants for the casuals who just wanted to jump in and not take it seriously. That's how you correctly design a game for both types of players and also to ease potential competitive players into the multiplayer to begin with to eventually discover those deep mechanics and get curious into what else they can do to gain a competitive edge.

 

Bungie overall still deserves credit for the hilariously awesome Halo 1 physics engine and gameplay mechanics in campaign though. And projectile ballistics.

 

In Halo 2 they didn't give nearly as much freedom to one competent designer and Hardy mostly stuck to campaign level editing or some crap as a result, and they focus tested the multiplayer for noobs. The biggest mistake they ever made in competitive Halo history in my opinion. That's what set us on the path to Halo Reach/4 to begin with. Every iteration of Halo was like "How much worse can we make competitive before people eventually abandon it". Halo 4 was the breaking point. I mean you would have thought "Hey, this guy designed the deepest, longest lasting and most popular console shooter multiplayer of all time, maybe we should give him creative control again" but Bungie/MS chose not to in their infinite wisdom. Now the competitive scene is dead when it should be rising with the rest of esports.

Where is hardy lebel now and why is he not employed at 343? He essentially invented halo multiplayer.
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The 4 had worse gameplay at launch for me because of no de-scoping.  That was areal jarring experience.  

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The 4 had worse gameplay at launch for me because of no de-scoping.  That was areal jarring experience.  

 

Not sure if you chose these words on purpose, but for anyone who doesn't know: Josh Holmes (or was it Quinn?) defended the removal of descope in H4 by saying getting knowed out of scope was too "jarring". Which is laughable at best.

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Not sure if you chose these words on purpose, but for anyone who doesn't know: Josh Holmes (or was it Quinn?) defended the removal of descope in H4 by saying getting knowed out of scope was too "jarring". Which is laughable at best.

 

I wouldn't mind Flinch if it punished snipers. Because it's almost as frustrating as descoping a guy only for him to no scope you because magnetism (or whatever dumb mechanic makes a post Descope sniper bullet always find its target no matter the range). In a perfect world Descope would be combined with. So that the sniper hd to readjust before firing another shot

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I wouldn't mind Flinch if it punished snipers. Because it's almost as frustrating as descoping a guy only for him to no scope you because magnetism (or whatever dumb mechanic makes a post Descope sniper bullet always find its target no matter the range). In a perfect world Descope would be combined with. So that the sniper hd to readjust before firing another shot

No

 

That's dumb

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I appreciate both games for at least attempting to leave behind the Battle Rifle as the utility weapon of choice.  It's just a shame they went back on their progress in Halo 4 when they updated it.   Edit: I should clarify, that the return of single shot weapons to prominence came with a bunch of other baggage which was much worse.

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Halo 4 without a doubt in my eyes.

 

 

You know its funny, I remember saying that it'd be pretty hard to make a game worse than default Reach without actually trying to do so, that it really couldn't get worse than that. When Halo 4 came out I commended 343 for putting on their try hard pants for doing just that. After Halo 4 I said it couldn't get worse than that and MCC happened. I didn't dare say it again.

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No love for the mcc launch?

 

Funny that you say that, Vanilla MCC Halo 4, was damn near an entirely different game than it was originally.

 

Noticeably less aim assist, and magnetism, no bullshit Ordinance drops, BR shot faster(likely due to 60 FPS), it was actually pretty decent. Definitely was better than vanilla Reach.

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