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CyReN

HCS Pro League Summer 2016 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion‏

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Spoiler tagging your Quote, but many of my replies are in bold within your quote.

 

 

before I start with the body of my argument, we'll have to agree that the competitive settings should be optimized for competitiveness. This might sound like a joke but I've see people here argue otherwise. Competitive settings would be those that optimize the skill gap (within reason) in the essential parts of playing halo like awareness, accuracy, communication, etc.

 

So, I'll start with what ARs, smgs, and storm rifles add.
 
1. They add the skill gap of knowing to use them at close range.
 
That's all I can think of. It is an extremely minimal skill gap; any decent player can play a few games and get a sense of the effective range of when to use automatic weapons.
 
Now let's look at what they take away from the competitiveness of the game

1. Accuracy skill gap: it's true that Autos take SOME coordination skill to use. So does taking a shit in a toilet. My dog can do that and he could probably use an smg with reasonable effectiveness, too. In all seriousness, someone like cratos would probably point out that he would outshoot me with an Ar more often than not. That's probably true. However, due to the ease of the weapon, I would likely almost always take him to no shields or at least very low shields unless he got the drop on me or had a serious positioning advantage. The same can't be said of the pistol, where I would miss far more shots against a player with a good strafe and shot.

 

So you immediately start out with superlatives as an Appeal to Emotion (Logical Fallacy).  You also imply that the AR versus the Pistol in terms of whether or not you would be able to weaken a player who shot you is Black and White (Logical Fallacy), as though if Pistols were the only weapon, that you would never land a shot against a better player.  This is not the case -- you'd be able to aim for the player's chest (a wider part of his body) in the case of being unable to kill him, and at least drop him to no shields.  If it were a case where he had a high ground position where only his head was exposed -- guess what, your pistol's actually the better weapon to use than an AR in that case, as an AR's spread would cause even more bullets than normal to miss, versus a pistol, which, thanks to its precision firing mechanism, would actually make it easier to land shots and damage the smaller target.

 

At this point, you might point out that rockets aren't that hard to aim either and I'm not complaining about them. However, those spawn rarely and in one place (often an easily contested position). In other words, their ease of use and power are balanced by the difficulty of obtaining them, their relatively low ammo, and the fact that they take a long time to spawn. The same can't be said of ARs that you spawn with and storm rifles and smgs that are seemingly on every map and respawn every microsecond. I'm not saying they're as strong as rockets obviously but this brings me to...

 

2. Unbalanced compared to primary weapon: as the weakest of the autos(other than maybe suppressor which I've never tried), the AR that you spawn with is strong enough to beat the pistol in close quarters unless the pistol player manages to hit every shot. I've seen this happen so many times with pro players so it has nothing to do with my skill level.

 

Dividing these up so I can respond to statements individually... Point #2: So immediately after talking about why you think ARs "Don't belong in competitive Halo at all" you go on to talk about a factor that is actually able to be modified: the in-game balance of the weapons.  This is not an issue of the weapon's design, it is an issue of the weapon's tuning.  These are variables that 343 is capable of changing if enough fuss is made to change them (and we saw in Halo 4, they will make Sandbox balance passes if begged for).

 

The smg and storm rifle will dominate any precision weapon (other than sniper) in close quarters even if the precision weapon hits every shot. It's not a counter argument to simply say, "well that's their role".

 

Again, this is a balance issue, not a design issue.  You need to separate these two concepts in your mind.  Autos are currently too easy to use and have too high of a damage output in order to be balanced against precision weapons in Halo 5.  The Storm Rifle is also significantly easier to use, as its bolts have heavy tracking within red reticule ranges.  This is something that can be edited on 343's end.

 

Otherwise, I could just say, "who cares if we spawn with shotguns? Their role is to be good at close range. I enjoy being able to choose between the weapons". It's not really an argument. The question is does competitive halo need weapons that almost completely remove the accuracy skill gap of close range fights.

 

Shotguns versus Automatics is a separate issue -- while both dominate close range, the Shotgun (and to a lesser degree, the Scattershot) do not have significant counterplay when you've entered their engagement range.  Automatics have at least time to react and are not instant kills.  You can kite around walls, out-maneuver with thrusts, or go for just enough damage to get a melee trade in the engagement if you are caught off guard.  It's entirely spur-of-the-moment situational decision making on how to best deal with a bum hand you've been dealt by being caught in a bad position versus an automatic (which will almost certainly punish you for being caught in a bad position.)

 

I would say no. Think about the times where you've gotten first shots with the br in previous games in someone's back at close range and he's managed to turn around and embarrass you with a good strafe and shot. That never happens in this game because the autos are so strong and easy.

 

Counterpoint Anecdote: Renegades versus Evil Geniuses, Week (6?  7?) of Pro League:  Empire Strongholds.  Lunchbox had a SAW, a power weapon automatic.  This should be a guaranteed battle against someone in CQB, right?  Wrong.  Commonly outplayed him by getting a few shots and breaking the sightline with a pillar, waiting on his reticule to reset, firing a small burst into Lunchbox as Lunchbox thrusted out to challenge Commonly, then Commonly thrusted to reset his AR and finished his load on Lunchbox's face, killing him and capturing Blue base.  Lunchbox, despite having the STRONGER AUTOMATIC lost a 1v1 in auto range to a WEAKER AUTOMATIC, because the player he was fighting used his mobility more cleverly and outplayed him.

 

It removes skill and it removes excitement for players and spectators. You might say that it's part of the skill to keep your distance from storm rifle users or whatever.  This is partially true but mostly bullshit. It is incredibly common to see a pro player camping and watching their radar until another person goes by.

 

Radar and Automatics are separate issues, and you're letting the existence of the Radar cloud the validity of Auto battles here, a bit.  Even though I'm an Automatics Apologist, I am staunchly against radar.  (Though I have made recommendations for changes to how grenades work if 343 is so insistent on keeping Radar.)

 

At that point, the camping player storm rifles the player in the back and the other player has no chance because at this point it's like call of duty. Whoever sees the other player first wins. then there are modes like empire strongholds where even at the pro level it's an autofest

 

I looked up 3 Empire Strongholds pro games after reading this.  In all 3 of them, the weapon with the most kills?  Magnum.  AR was second.  Spartan (Melees/GPs/Charges) or DMR were 3rd depending on the game, DMR or SAW 4th, SAW or DMR 5th.  There was about a 40-60 split overall between Precision vs Autos/Melees, which makes sense given the chaotic, close range nature of the Pit stronghold.

 

Still, even with the split on kills, the most used weapon for 21 out of 24 players (technically 16 players, CLG/Eco's team played twice)...The Pistol, taking up >=40% of player's equipment time.  Only Suspector (54.62% AR), Naded (46.75% AR), and Frosty (48.88% DMR) had a weapon other than the Pistol as their most drawn weapon.

People have said that pistol starts only would make the game only about brute accuracy and that ARs make the game more about "positional gameplay". This is a fallacy. If I'm in a power position with cover and get in a pistol fight with a player who is in the open I'll have a very good chance of winning even if his shot is better than mine.

 

There's so much more to say but let's start with this

 

 

Neither of your arguments are actually very strong, and are constructed on logical fallacies or an inability to separate the notion of Bad Design from Bad Balance.

 

You've assigned arbitrary amounts of how each weapon contributes to different skill sets in the game, and asserted your arbitrary numbers as hard data to back up your own assumptions and feelings about the weapons.

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Rayne I believe. Don't know any others.

 

Does Snip3down still use boxer? He did in H2A.

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if you get shot 3 times by someone before you shoot at them you deserve to die lol, if you disagree then idfk man go play csgo aim maps

If you don't actually have to execute a play with good aim, then the game shifts more towards whoever saw the other first. Call it "positioning" all you want, but sometimes it's luck. And sometimes it's someone sitting on a corner waiting for someone to walk past.
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Str8 Sick is loving his new potential teammates. He just said its nice not to have to be a one man show anymore.

I don't care what a joke people think optic is (he was apart of that joke team seems like people forget that) I can't stand when pro's shittalk old teams and teammates because of team changes which are always going to happen. I like trash talk but this isn't that, and i lost some respect for him saying that, it's very unprofessional. I think a perfect example of how to handle a drop is shooter who was dropped from the 2nd place team for no reason after being praised by his teammates the whole weekend. 

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If you don't actually have to execute a play with good aim, then the game shifts more towards whoever saw the other first. Call it "positioning" all you want, but sometimes it's luck. And sometimes it's someone sitting on a corner waiting for someone to walk past.

what is there to execute if you hit a guy 3 times before he looks at you?
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what is there to execute if you hit a guy 3 times before he looks at you?

With an AR I'm assuming? Why should the fight be over because someone hit the 3 easiest shots of his life in a quarter of a second?

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With an AR I'm assuming? Why should the fight be over because someone hit the 3 easiest shots of his life in a quarter of a second?

im talking about a pistol, no ar fight is over because of 3 AR shots...
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Or, give us what we want or we won't help you make any more money.

 

I'm not sure what your point is though. That's literally what happens in a strike.

I don't think it's possible to argue that 343 have turned a profit with their venture in comp Halo. They've given away nearly $3m on prize pool alone. Team skins might have recouped some of that cost but I would be interested to see those sales and they could have gone another direction with limited / prestige skins and still made bank.

 

Pros have little to no leverage.

Pros rely solely on developer lead tournaments / leagues.

Pros aren't going to boycott en masse.

 

I'm all for pro players coming together to give their feedback as a body but anything outside of that is a fantasy.

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Collective bargaining implies that if the workers aren't given reasonable conditions/compensation/settings/whatever, they won't work/play.

 

So the pros hold the league for ransom. Either give us settings that don't suck or fill your pro league with AM's and watch your already strugglingviewership tank even further

You're not taken the Golden Rule into consideration, do you know why Roger Goodell and the Owners always get the better deal of the Collective Bargaining Agreement, again it's because those with the Gold make the Rules.

 

This probably will go over your head but the only difference between "Pro" players and "AM" players is the title they were given.

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Is it impossible for 343 to make small structural changes to these maps after they've launched? If Riptide's hallway from Orange to Blue was not blocked off and if there were a large window along the blue hall the map might be decent. But it also comes down to weapons on map. Storm Rifles should NOT be on that map. With these changes it could be a decent slowpace slayer map like Lockout.

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I feel like the majority of the people here talking about game play spend more time in this thread than they do playing Halo 5...

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Can anyone tell me why i'm lagging on 60mb download and only in this game? Also if Nadeds book reads anything like his website. I look forward to reading more about his storied pee wee baseball career and all the times he made teams implode.

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I feel like the majority of the people here talking about game play spend more time in this thread than they do playing Halo 5...

Most of the people invading this thread spend 22 hours per day in the Halo 5 discussion thread trashing the game. Not saying they don't have valid points, but it's not a coincidence that you never see half these people post here until there is some sort of opportunity to attack settings.

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Is it impossible for 343 to make small structural changes to these maps after they've launched? If Riptide's hallway from Orange to Blue was not blocked off and if there were a large window along the blue hall the map might be decent. But it also comes down to weapons on map. Storm Rifles should NOT be on that map. With these changes it could be a decent slowpace slayer map like Lockout.

You mean like changing actual map geometry and not Forge stuff?

 

I assume it would still require an update to do that.

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Naded's book will literally be 15 chapters of "and THIS teammate is the reason i lost at THIS particular event".

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Is it impossible for 343 to make small structural changes to these maps after they've launched? If Riptide's hallway from Orange to Blue was not blocked off and if there were a large window along the blue hall the map might be decent. But it also comes down to weapons on map. Storm Rifles should NOT be on that map. With these changes it could be a decent slowpace slayer map like Lockout.

Didn't they do this with the extra cover at Rockets on Coliseum?

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Didn't they do this with the extra cover at Rockets on Coliseum?

They just added a few pieces using forge for that.

 

Actually removing a section of the map is something forge can’t do.

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In my opinion the best settings are bumper jumper, recon, and hell jumper. I almost switched to hell jumper in h5 from bumper jumper but I didn't do it. Recon + scuf or claw is really nice though.

I was born a boxer man and I'll die a boxer man
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I feel like the majority of the people here talking about game play spend more time in this thread than they do playing Halo 5...

You're saying the people who have problems with Halo 5 don't play the game that much? Who would've thought...

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