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HCS Pro League Summer 2016 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion‏

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After reading a few of these things about single vs. double elimination, I feel like so many people are trying to eliminate what makes sports so great. Looking at any league in the US, the season is used to get the seeding for a single-elimination playoff. When the 8th seeded Habs went on a post-season tear in '10 and knocked off the best team of the season, Washington Capitals, no one put an asterisk next to the Blackhawks' Stanley Cup victory because they didn't beat the #1 team from the season. Upsets are a part of sports, it's not about the popular team winning, or the statistically better team winning. It's about one group of guys showing up at the right time and overcoming seemingly insurmountable odds - or falling flat on their face trying and the better team actually wins. Double-elimination taints some of the spirit of competition.

 

 

tl;dr - To spend an entire season to prove you belong there, as a top seed, lose early (presumably to one of the lesser teams to qualify) AND get a do-over feels wrong.

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I agree for the most part, but double elim is necessary in our current LAN-starved state. And yeah, the best team should win regardless of the format... but the rest of the teams get paid based on their placements too and single elim is not so good at accurately ranking everyone that isn't #1.

This is the BIGGEST reason I prefer Double Elim. When you have tiered payouts for the teams that don't win, Single elim makes no sense. If the second best team at the event gets knocked out in the semis by CLG, they miss out on a substantial amount of money that's meant for the 2nd best team. The argument that 'The goal is to win' sounds nice, but again the prizing is laid out in the assumption that the teams deserve their placement.

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So you think a LAN, where it's possible some teams will never match up, is a better way to rank teams than a double round robin where teams play each other twice?  :wutface:

 

Uhh what?? you still do all the initial seeding from the pro league..... so the teams that perform the best in pro league still have a good advantage?  what, did you think that would play no part in the structure? :apg:

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This is the BIGGEST reason I prefer Double Elim. When you have tiered payouts for the teams that don't win, Single elim makes no sense. If the second best team at the event gets knocked out in the semis by CLG, they miss out on a substantial amount of money that's meant for the 2nd best team. The argument that 'The goal is to win' sounds nice, but again the prizing is laid out in the assumption that the teams deserve their placement.

EG shouldn't have lost to RNG in pool play then. Same with Denial. If you want 2nd place prize money, you have to earn it. In the case of worlds, pool play was extremely important and EG and Denial didn't get it done in groups.

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EG shouldn't have lost to RNG in pool play then. Same with Denial. If you want 2nd place prize money, you have to earn it. In the case of worlds, pool play was extremely important and EG and Denial didn't get it done in groups.

That's easy to say when it's not your money on the line....

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That's easy to say when it's not your money on the line....

Come on, these are professional halo players. If they want the prize money it's on them to get it done when it counts.

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EG shouldn't have lost to RNG in pool play then. Same with Denial. If you want 2nd place prize money, you have to earn it. In the case of worlds, pool play was extremely important and EG and Denial didn't get it done in groups.

My point was purely hypothetical. Luckily we have double elim so it's moot anyways.

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Uhh what?? you still do all the initial seeding from the pro league..... so the teams that perform the best in pro league still have a good advantage?  what, did you think that would play no part in the structure? :apg:

So what you're proposing is exactly what's happening now then? Pro league for seeding then a double elim LAN? Why do you need a LB to better rank teams when we've had 7 weeks of pro league for that sole purpose.

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After reading a few of these things about single vs. double elimination, I feel like so many people are trying to eliminate what makes sports so great. Looking at any league in the US, the season is used to get the seeding for a single-elimination playoff. When the 8th seeded Habs went on a post-season tear in '10 and knocked off the best team of the season, Washington Capitals, no one put an asterisk next to the Blackhawks' Stanley Cup victory because they didn't beat the #1 team from the season. Upsets are a part of sports, it's not about the popular team winning, or the statistically better team winning. It's about one group of guys showing up at the right time and overcoming seemingly insurmountable odds - or falling flat on their face trying and the better team actually wins. Double-elimination taints some of the spirit of competition.

 

 

tl;dr - To spend an entire season to prove you belong there, as a top seed, lose early (presumably to one of the lesser teams to qualify) AND get a do-over feels wrong.

Except placings also determine how much money teams make. Single elim does not work if you have to determine more than just the best team.

 

Also, AGAIN Halo games are much, much shorter than other sports games AND other sports use series as well. In basketball its Bo7 on different days for over an hour each time. So in order to win you have to be the better team for 4+ hours of game time. In single elim Halo you only play for 40 minutes. There are seriously so many different reasons why sports and video game series are different so can we please stop trying to compare these things? Sports are also a fuckton more dangerous, which contributes to why they do what they do.

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I feel like the only way Single Elim would truly work in Halo is if every series was compromised of the entire pool of gametypes.

 

Or if we had our pro league on LAN so that we had a completely solid idea of where to seed teams.

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So what you're proposing is exactly what's happening now then? Pro league for seeding then a double elim LAN? Why do you need a LB to better rank teams when we've had 7 weeks of pro league for that sole purpose.

 

So as i have mentioned in a couple posts at least, I am well aware that is what we are doing. It's irrelevant to the discussion as to whether or not double-elimination is better than pool play and single elimination.  that discussion has been happening in a vacuum for the last 10 pages, just using halo as an example since thats what we are all here for.

 

Edit: you're right though.  This discussion is asinine given it's purely theoretical at this point.  We just have nothing else to discuss in the short term with no matches this week.  feel free to get in the last word, i am done.

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I feel like the only way Single Elim would truly work in Halo is if every series was compromised of the entire pool of gametypes.

 

Or if we had our pro league on LAN so that we had a completely solid idea of where to seed teams.

Take Stasis CTF out and make it bo13 and I support that for a single elim with 6-8 teams.

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For anybody attending NA finals, your pass gets you a free day access to KCON.

 

On Saturday the 30th there is a panel discussion at 11am focused around esports and pro gaming with attention on halo.

 

 

Full Schedule if you're interested in anything else.

 

http://www.kconusa.com/kcon-la-schedule/?al2_page=index&al2_parentHost=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kconusa.com&al2_date=2016/07/29

 

I hope they touch on the 7.9 million Halo eSports enthusiasts.

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Take Stasis CTF out and make it bo13 and I support that for a single elim with 6-8 teams.

lol, could you imaging the casting around game 9 when they have ran out of things to say?

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lol, could you imaging the casting around game 9 when they have ran out of things to say?

LOL they would for sure have to rotate casters out around game 6 or 7. 

 

Nah fuck it let T2 solo cast the whole tourney.

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After reading a few of these things about single vs. double elimination, I feel like so many people are trying to eliminate what makes sports so great. Looking at any league in the US, the season is used to get the seeding for a single-elimination playoff. When the 8th seeded Habs went on a post-season tear in '10 and knocked off the best team of the season, Washington Capitals, no one put an asterisk next to the Blackhawks' Stanley Cup victory because they didn't beat the #1 team from the season. Upsets are a part of sports, it's not about the popular team winning, or the statistically better team winning. It's about one group of guys showing up at the right time and overcoming seemingly insurmountable odds - or falling flat on their face trying and the better team actually wins. Double-elimination taints some of the spirit of competition.

 

 

tl;dr - To spend an entire season to prove you belong there, as a top seed, lose early (presumably to one of the lesser teams to qualify) AND get a do-over feels wrong.

Sure, but in sports the regular season isn't played online. Most esports don't have that luxury. Also, upsets still happen frequently in double elimination tournaments in every esport that uses the format.

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Please stop comparing single elimination sports to halo. We're talking about games that last an average of two or more hours in sports to gametypes in Halo that can finish in the blink of an eye (especially if a team has a bad start in a gametype).

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Agreed spec mode needs a lot of work, things to fix before adding more features:

 

1. Aim lag (self explanitory)

2. LT + A Shortcut pausing the game (the spec has to double-tap to play but there is a momentary pause)

3. Wiping the killfeed after a switch (makes the game very hard to follow if a switch is made soon after a death)

4. Bring up scoreboard more than once post game (if it's dropped you can't show it again, so many times I've dropped it by accident :mj: )

 

Obviously fancy flashy stuff like live map overviews are cool too but fixing the fundamentals first are key.

 

Don't forget lobbies (this should have honestly been default) and fixing the recent issues of sped up games that happens. Been having a lot of issues for our tournaments in the last few weeks with timing casters.

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"i like chocolate"

 

"i like vanilla"

 

X pages later

 

everyone still prefers what they prefer 

 

 

i propose we annoy 343 about fixing spec mode instead of fighting amongst ourselves 

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"i like chocolate"

 

"i like vanilla"

 

X pages later

 

everyone still prefers what they prefer 

 

 

i propose we annoy 343 about removing radar instead of fighting amongst ourselves 

I agree.

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"i like chocolate"

 

"i like vanilla"

 

X pages later

 

everyone still prefers what they prefer 

 

 

 

 

I agree. Discussion on a discussion forum is pointless
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