Jump to content
mierder

The 4sk Pistol debate

  

154 members have voted

  1. 1. What change to the current Pistol do you want?

    • 4sk with same TTK (time to kill)
      13
    • 4sk with faster TTK of all rifles
      75
    • 5sk with same TTK (So, No changes at all)
      50
    • 5sk with faster TTK of all rifles
      5
    • Other (discuss in thread)
      11


Recommended Posts

And please stop adding Warzone variants to Arena just because they exist.

 

There is no reason for the H2 BR to be on Torque or Riptide.

I like to pick them up......Old school peasant race I guess. 

 

 

dr-who-rain.gif

Share this post


Link to post

4sk with the sane RoF would be ideal. Not sure if that's what you meant by the second option so I voted other.

  • Upvote (+1) 4

Share this post


Link to post

I still think a faster-firing 5-shot Magnum is the way to go.

 

The novelty of a 4SK Magnum is that it allows you to get 3 kills with one reload, compared to the current 2.5 kills with one reload.

 

But in practice, you wouldn't be engaging more than 2 players alone with just your starting weapons.

 

This would allow the DMR to remain as a "safe" pickup, but would firmly cement the Magnum as a "skill" weapon.

 

In fact, this is how it was in the beta.

I find your post a bit confusing, especially regarding the bolded portion. The way I see it, allowing more damage from a Magnum user by increasing kills per clip will empower skilled players and allow them to perform riskier and more interesting plays. Players don't want to engage two or more players at a time because (in part) you can't get more than two kills per clip. Your logic seems slightly circular in that respect, unless I'm misinterpreting your point.

 

Furthermore, I don't see the appeal of building up the DMR as a "safe" option compared to the Magnum--"safe" equates to relatively boring play with predictable outcomes. The focus shouldn't be on empowering an easier weapon. That makes no sense. If the DMR added anything that could not be achieved by a 4sk Magnum with significantly less bullet magnetism and slightly more red reticle range, there would be a better case for its preservation. But, as it stands, it's just an easier and more utilitarian Magnum, just another hitscan weapon. I would recommend increasing the DMR's clip to 20 before choosing not to buff the Magnum to 4sk.

 

@@MATCLAN The second option could have better wording, but I think that's the one you're looking for--it's the one I chose. It also neglects to stipulate that 4sk should be accompanied by less bullet magnetism, which I feel is something that most 5sk advocates ignore.

  • Upvote (+1) 4

Share this post


Link to post

4sk with the sane RoF would be ideal. Not sure if that's what you meant by the second option so I voted other.

Lol. Now every time you post I read it in your voice. XD

Share this post


Link to post

The higher aim assist weapons should have longer kill times, while the shorter aim assist weapons should have faster times. Even for power weapons. The gun skill gap would be a lot better if this rule was followed but it's clearly not. #StormRifleSMGAR

Share this post


Link to post

"Safe option"

 

Why are we still trying to assume we NEED DMRs and BRs

What's been pretty prevalent on this forum in the past year or so is the intolerance of useless weaponry. You can argue about whether it's worse to have useless weapons or redundant weapons, but ultimately there are at least two specific problems that override this general disdain for the so-called watered down sandbox:

 

1. When a weapon is useful but does not serve a unique or necessary purpose;

 

2. When no weapon of a certain type is useful enough to fill a crucial role in the sandbox;

 

both of which allow and encourage undesirable gameplay.

 

Contrary to popular belief, not every weapon needs a purpose. Rather, every purpose needs a weapon. In past games, the only response from unsatisfied players was to nerf everything. Now we are starting to see a countermovement with people protesting nerfs and pushing for a sandbox in which everything is useful. But there is a middleground between these extremes: buffing the Magnum while adjusting the difficulty to keep the faster kills fair.

 

People need to understand that 4sk is a compromise, not an outlandish demand.

  • Upvote (+1) 3

Share this post


Link to post

I would just like to remind everyone on the history of Halo 4, and reiterate that Halo 5 is actually the first Halo game that lacked a proper utility weapon.

 

Now by "proper" I mean, "This weapon that I spawn with is good enough for me to defend myself against any opponent, although this is still Halo, so there are more desirable weapons on The Map."

 

That is the singular most important criteria for a utilitarian spawn weapon. Which is where the Halo 5 magnum falls short.

 

When Halo 4 launched the ideal spawn weapon was actually The DMR, The BR was inferior in nearly every category. Less range, slightly slower kill time(it was a 5 shot kill), and less slaying potential per magazine.

 

After the weapon tuning update The DMR was slightly debuffed, and The BR was buffed to a 4SK making it the new utility weapon

 

So yes, even Halo 4 since launch had a proper utility weapon, unlike Halo 5.

 

I'm getting sad now :(.

Share this post


Link to post

I would just like to remind everyone on the history of Halo 4, and reiterate that Halo 5 is actually the first Halo game that lacked a proper utility weapon.

 

Now by "proper" I mean, "This weapon that I spawn with is good enough for me to defend myself against any opponent, although this is still Halo, so there are more desirable weapons on The Map."

 

That is the singular most important criteria for a utilitarian spawn weapon. Which is where the Halo 5 magnum falls short.

 

When Halo 4 launched the ideal spawn weapon was actually The DMR, The BR was inferior in nearly every category. Less range, slightly slower kill time(it was a 5 shot kill), and less slaying potential per magazine.

 

After the weapon tuning update The DMR was slightly debuffed, and The BR was buffed to a 4SK making it the new utility weapon

 

So yes, even Halo 4 since launch had a proper utility weapon, unlike Halo 5.

 

I'm getting sad now :(.

The Magnum in Halo 5 is undeniably a proper utility weapon, otherwise we could say that Halo CE is the only Halo with a proper utility weapon.

 

Your Halo 4 example doesn't work because even after the BR was buffed, the DMR remained a perfectly viable utility rifle. It didn't stop being one just because the BR became more popular. Furthermore, you can have more than one utility weapon in a single game. Remember the Carbine and Needle Rifle?

 

Just something I thought I'd bring up. The Magnum may be weak, but claiming the game doesn't have a proper utility weapon is a stretch.

Share this post


Link to post

"Safe option"

 

Why are we still trying to assume we NEED DMRs and BRs

Thank you. We dont need these two weapons in arena. Its making precision gunfights too inconsistent and lowering the skill gap as they're easy to use.

 

Theres nothing wrong with just keeping them in Warzone.

Share this post


Link to post

The Magnum in Halo 5 is undeniably a proper utility weapon, otherwise we could say that Halo CE is the only Halo with a proper utility weapon.

 

Your Halo 4 example doesn't work because even after the BR was buffed, the DMR remained a perfectly viable utility rifle. It didn't stop being one just because the BR became more popular. Furthermore, you can have more than one utility weapon in a single game. Remember the Carbine and Needle Rifle?

 

Just something I thought I'd bring up. The Magnum may be weak, but claiming the game doesn't have a proper utility weapon is a stretch.

The H5 pistol is not a utility weapon. A utility weapon facilitates a circular weapon system. H5 has a clear, linear, tiered weapon system.

 

The argument is not about whether or not the h5 pistol is a utility weapon. The argument is about whether people prefer circular weapon systems or tiered weapons systems.

Share this post


Link to post

4sk with the sane RoF would be ideal. Not sure if that's what you meant by the second option so I voted other.

 

 

Edit: Sorry, i see you said RoF. 

 

You picked the right option (Other) then, the second option (4sk with faster TTK of all rifles) may or not end being the same RoF of the current 5sk Pistol depeding on how much the TTK needs to be adjusted to kill faster than the rifles.

Share this post


Link to post

 

That would be the first option: 4sk with same TTK (time to kill) 

 

I should have clarified that option; with same TTK of the current 5sk Pistol. 

 

No it wouldn't. Time to kill and rate of Fire are different.

 

4sk with the same RoF is a faster a TTK than a 4sk slowed down to kill in the same period of time as a 5sk.

Share this post


Link to post

No it wouldn't. Time to kill and rate of Fire are different.

 

4sk with the same RoF is a faster a TTK than a 4sk slowed down to kill in the same period of time as a 5sk.

 

See my edit :)

Share this post


Link to post

 It also neglects to stipulate that 4sk should be accompanied by less bullet magnetism, which I feel is something that most 5sk advocates ignore.

 

I tried to leave out all other variables, like aim assist and magnetism. But i agree that magnetism should be reduced not only to the pistol but all rifles.

Share this post


Link to post

Thank you. We dont need these two weapons in arena. Its making precision gunfights too inconsistent and lowering the skill gap as they're easy to use.

People like the choice, and the ability to pick up a different utility weapon is something we've had since Halo 2.

 

Furthermore, in a case where the Magnum is buffed, removing the other utility rifles won't necessarily increase the skill gap.

 

Let's look at CS:GO for instance. Imagine if every rifle except the AWP, the AK-47, and the M4A4 were removed. Following that logic, this would certainly make the game less inconsistent, and thus, more competitive. However, it wouldn't increase the skill gap. The other rifles may not be as desirable, but they certainly add depth to the game. The Galil is a cheaper, more controllable AK-47, the Scout is an insanely skillful weapon that used to give a speed increase, the scoped rifles have perfect first shot accuracy, etc.

 

Ideally, buffing the Magnum would make it the AK/M4 of Halo 5, but the other weapons would remain on-map for the players who prefer them. That way depth is added to the game by allowing different play-styles, which is beneficial to the skill gap.

  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

The Magnum in Halo 5 is undeniably a proper utility weapon, otherwise we could say that Halo CE is the only Halo with a proper utility weapon.

 

Your Halo 4 example doesn't work because even after the BR was buffed, the DMR remained a perfectly viable utility rifle. It didn't stop being one just because the BR became more popular. Furthermore, you can have more than one utility weapon in a single game. Remember the Carbine and Needle Rifle?

 

Just something I thought I'd bring up. The Magnum may be weak, but claiming the game doesn't have a proper utility weapon is a stretch.

This is a useless point to defend, for several reasons. How "proper" the Magnum is as a utility weapon is a spectrum, not an absolute. Halo CE had the first true utility weapon (if you thought Quake:

The Machine Gun is not a utility weapon, and nor is it meant to be. It has the lowest DPS rate in the game (bar perhaps some iterations of the Shotgun) and is not intended to be competitive with any weapon; to this end, experienced players have proposed a nerf, and the CPMA spinoff Reflex now employs a low damage, randomized burst gun instead because there is simply no role that needs to be fulfilled by a starting weapon.

), so the 3SK Pistol is on one end of the spectrum. You can debate which weapon from each game lies closest to the Pistol, but keep in mind that each precision weapon must be looked at as it stands within its sandbox.

 

There should only be one true utility weapon in a game, and that is the precision weapon you spawn with. The whole point of such a weapon is that the entire game can be designed around this all-purpose gun that players are encouraged to use throughout the match. If the starting precision weapon is inferior to another commonly used weapon in terms of utilitarian supremacy, then that starting weapon is not a proper utility weapon because it will no longer be the best all-purpose gun. Additionally, the most dominant precision weapon (which isn't classified as a meaningful incentive item) is also not a proper utility weapon because it's not the one you spawn with, so the game cannot be balanced around it in all scenarios.

 

Therefore, Halo 4's Turbo-update BR was a proper utility weapon in terms of its place in the sandbox--you spawned with it and it was the best precision gun overall--though it failed in terms of the skillful role established by the 3sk Pistol, as would the DMR. Post-Turbo, the DMR was inferior in kill time and arguably ease of use (disregarding BTB), and it was never the spawning weapon except in Diesel's edgy settings, so it fails both categories and is a poor example of a utility weapon.

 

Now for Halo 5's Magnum: it is the spawning precision weapon, so there's that, but it is inferior in effectiveness to all of the other precision weapons, having such a miniscule advantage in kill time over the BR that in online matches (read: all matches because of no LAN) there will be trades, assuming average latency.

 

Lastly, there is no use in calling every precision weapon lacking the incentive of a Sniper a utility weapon. The term "utility weapon" loses its meaning. You should use "utility weapon" only to describe the spawning precision weapon and, even then, realize that calling the Magnum that does not mean that it perfectly fulfills the role of a utility weapon as determined by the gold standard of the 3sk Pistol. Yes, it kills faster than most other utility weapons of past games; yes, it shoots straight; yes, it requires more skill than its surrounding sandbox; but it is not a "proper utility weapon."

 

 

TLDR: Halo 1 is king :prayers:

  • Upvote (+1) 4

Share this post


Link to post

People like the choice, and the ability to pick up a different utility weapon is something we've had since Halo 2.

 

Furthermore, in a case where the Magnum is buffed, removing the other utility rifles won't necessarily increase the skill gap.

 

Let's look at CS:GO for instance. Imagine if every rifle except the AWP, the AK-47, and the M4A4 were removed. Following that logic, this would certainly make the game less inconsistent, and thus, more competitive. However, it wouldn't increase the skill gap. The other rifles may not be as desirable, but they certainly add depth to the game. The Galil is a cheaper, more controllable AK-47, the Scout is an insanely skillful weapon that used to give a speed increase, the scoped rifles have perfect first shot accuracy, etc.

 

Ideally, buffing the Magnum would make it the AK/M4 of Halo 5, but the other weapons would remain on-map for the players who prefer them. That way depth is added to the game by allowing different play-styles, which is beneficial to the skill gap.

CS: GO and Halo are not the same game at all. CS: GO is a game that lets you pick your guns off start and each weapon in the same category has different spreads, ranges, and the like. This is a TERRIBLE example.

 

multiple weapons is adding artificial "depth". Instead of wasting time making 5 utility weapons that are stronger or weaker than each other, why don't we just make ONE utility weapin and build the sandbox around that? Instead of having guns that are objectively better than others, we have guns with risk vs rewards. Thats decision making and choice, not shoving as many guns into Halo as possible.

Share this post


Link to post
 

 

CS: GO and Halo are not the same game at all. CS: GO is a game that lets you pick your guns off start

The buy system is simply a medium of obtaining weapons, much like the pickup system in Halo. It has nothing to do with the fact that there are multiple rifles with their own roles.

 

and each weapon in the same category has different spreads, ranges, and the like. This is a TERRIBLE example.

multiple weapons is adding artificial "depth".

Hence why others including myself want the rifles to be adjusted as well as the Magnum. To break the similarity between them and reinforce their identities.

 

Instead of wasting time making 5 utility weapons that are stronger or weaker than each other, why don't we just make ONE utility weapin and build the sandbox around that? Instead of having guns that are objectively better than others, we have guns with risk vs rewards. Thats decision making and choice, not shoving as many guns into Halo as possible.

You can establish a "main" utility weapon without removing the rifles. The two aren't mutually exclusive, which is what I've been saying for a while now.

Share this post


Link to post

Please for the love of god don't compare CS:GO to Halo, especially weapon balance. CS's weapon balance is damn near perfect and no weapon is OP BECAUSE of the buy system. 

 

People who don't understand the economy in CS might think it's just a system of acquiring weapons like the pick up system in Halo but that is beyond wrong. 

  • Upvote (+1) 1
  • Downvote (-1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

The buy system is simply a medium of obtaining weapons, much like the pickup system in Halo. It has nothing to do with the fact that there are multiple rifles with their own roles.

No, it's more than just an acquisition system. The buy system ascribes costs to weapons which can be completely arbitrary if desired, whereas the "costs" of weapons in Halo derive from the power and abundance of each weapon, essentially meaning that the cost or value of each weapon is completely determined by its overall influence in the match with limited ability to keep guns competitive with each other outside of homogeneity. The buy system is what allows the class-based sandbox to have competitive, strategic merit.

 

Additionally, it is misleading to compare equate weapon classes in CS to weapon classes in Halo because of the aiming system in CS. Groups of weapons in CS can be stastically identical in TTK, DPS, RoF, capacity, and aggregate accuracy while having arbitrarily distinct recoil patterns with subjectively varying skill curves. Compare this to Halo, where weapons matching each other in the above categories can pretty much only differ in objective variances of red reticle range and relative strength of bullet magnetism adherence.

 

Hence why others including myself want the rifles to be adjusted as well as the Magnum. To break the similarity between them and reinforce their identities.

And what adjustments would you suggest? Because all of the precision weapons operate in nearly the same way, being hitscan, I don't see room for significant distinction without a major creative overhaul of the weapons' functions, which I suppose isn't too unlikely considering Warzone's diverse offerings.

 

You can establish a "main" utility weapon without removing the rifles. The two aren't mutually exclusive, which is what I've been saying for a while now.

If the Magnum is buffed to 4sk and made a bit harder to use, the other rifles can have their bullet magnetism nerfed as well, increasing their average kill times, and their abundance can be reduced. This will lead to a more fair, focused, and skillful game at all levels, while keeping the option for players who want to fire bullets of different colors, and since their role would be filled by the Magnum, they would not be missed in competitive play.

 

As it stands, they are still too easy to use for how powerful they are.

  • Upvote (+1) 4

Share this post


Link to post
 

Additionally, it is misleading to compare equate weapon classes in CS to weapon classes in Halo because of the aiming system in CS. Groups of weapons in CS can be stastically identical in TTK, DPS, RoF, capacity, and aggregate accuracy while having arbitrarily distinct recoil patterns with subjectively varying skill curves. Compare this to Halo, where weapons matching each other in the above categories can pretty much only differ in objective variances of red reticle range and relative strength of bullet magnetism adherence.

Which is exactly why I'm suggesting for weapon changes.

 

And what adjustments would you suggest? Because all of the precision weapons operate in nearly the same way, being hitscan, I don't see room for significant distinction without a major creative overhaul of the weapons' functions, which I suppose isn't too unlikely considering Warzone's diverse offerings.

20 round DMR, slower 3-shot Light Rifle, Carbine with bouncing shots. There's a ton of ways to add diversity to the weapons.

 

 

If the Magnum is buffed to 4sk and made a bit harder to use, the other rifles can have their bullet magnetism nerfed as well, increasing their average kill times, and their abundance can be reduced. This will lead to a more fair, focused, and skillful game at all levels, while keeping the option for players who want to fire bullets of different colors, and since their role would be filled by the Magnum, they would not be missed in competitive play.

As it stands, they are still too easy to use for how powerful they are.

Are you arguing for or against me? Because it sounds like we're on the same page.

Share this post


Link to post

Which is exactly why I'm suggesting for weapon changes.

 

20 round DMR, slower 3-shot Light Rifle, Carbine with bouncing shots. There's a ton of ways to add diversity to the weapons.

 

Are you arguing for or against me? Because it sounds like we're on the same page.

I argued against a mere RoF buff in favor of 4sk. I'm also saying that it doesn't matter if the rifles aren't used at all by skilled players, and that it's preferable if they don't. The adjustments you've proposed still do little to distinguish the rifles functionally.

 

The only way I can see room for a rifle in Halo apart from the utility weapon is if it functions differently and requires more skill. Halo 6 will most likely have a hitscan starting precision weapon, so a Lightrifle with projectile bullets or a Carbine with bullets that accelerate would be worthy of a spot in the long-range sandbox. Such a rifle would do well to approximate Halo CE's Sniper instead of Halo 4's DMR--those things spawned every thirty seconds, but no one complained because they were so hard to use, they didn't feel cheap to pick up, and the Pistol actually stood a chance.

  • Upvote (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post

I think its currently balanced with the other weapons in the game, and the TTK when teamshot is going is super fast, so I vote for no change surprisingly to the TTK but I am up for putting the mag to 15 instead of 12. 

 

I am open to H2 BR starts testing just because I just wanna see how it looks with the added mechanics. 

-Radar removed cause useless anyway, adds nothing but crouching with autos.

-Storm rifle and smg nerfed

-Weapon starts testing again just to see which is the best overall combo 

-Spartan charge thrown out of this damn game 

 

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use & Privacy Policy.