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Halo 5: Guardians Arena Gameplay Settings Thread

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This slows down the kill time of the AR by a decent amount actually.

Yeah but a missed pistol shot due to a thrust is 1/5 of the damage , so it evens out.

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Yeah but a missed pistol shot due to a thrust is 1/5 of the damage , so it evens out.

Going by your metric, the AR loses 1/3 of its damage from thrusting alone, so it doesn't even out.

 

You lose more than you gain when you thrust with automatics.

 

It's why thrust canceling is a thing.

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Going by your metric, the AR loses 1/3 of its damage from thrusting alone, so it doesn't even out.

 

You lose more than you gain when you thrust with automatics.

 

It's why thrust canceling is a thing.

for me it feels natural to AR until close to popping shield, thrust and then finish the kill. Maybe I'm facing less skilled players.

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Tagging @@TiberiusAudley @@Mikwen and @@SnakeBite to share my thoughts and respond to some of your comments about settings with questions. Hopefully I can pull you guys into this thread to start a discussion.

 

First, I feel as though you guys, and other pros/competitive players, are tunnel visioning on removing the negatives (that 343 so desperately tries to cram down our throats) rather than refining them so they work for both parties. The overarching question I have to ask is this: Why are you using your valuable connection with 343 to push for the removal of items/problems, rather than refining them to be perfect for competitive play?

 

As an example, I've talked in depth about my personal thoughts about the Plasma Caster in this thread, noting that it was a skill-oriented weapon that struck a decent balance in Vanilla H5 due to its demand for fast reaction times and calculated thinking for correct angles on walls or floors. In the Memories of Reach Content Update, they "buffed" the Plasma Caster by reducing the time it took for bolts to detonate after they hit a surface. This, as you know, converted the weapon into a braindead, broken, one-dimensional, spam fest with a shit load of ammo. Thus, the Plasma Caster became a problem, and everyone in the competitive community shouted "remove the Plasma Caster!!"

 

When asked if they would revert this change to bring the Caster back down to its Vanilla-level strength, or approach it with a different buff, @@Deez (Quinn) responded with the following...

 

Good discussion. I think at this point of the game it's best to discuss possibly reducing max ammo count on the Caster to help mitigate the unintended consequences from the detonation time reduction.

 

The fact that 343 can acknowledge the "unintended consequences" of a sandbox change and completely ignore how the weapon has fundamentally changed for the worse is beyond me, but a valuable piece of feedback you could have relayed to them would have been to rebalance/nerf-rebuff the Plasma Caster rather than desperately pushing for a removal. Clearly I couldn't get through to Quinn, but you guys have more power.

 

Mikwen talked about the Blue BR on Plaza, which damages the balance of the opening breakout. As a matter of fact, I critiqued this exact fact a few pages ago, stating that they need to find a way for both sides to have a clean fight at the start of the match. Tiberius mentioned that NV played a very blue-oriented setup, but I've seen a lot of other people claim that getting blocked out of Tram and stuck in Blue was completely brutal. What would be your perfect scenario to ensure that neither Blue nor Tram spawn traps would be lopsided? (Edit: Maybe a solution would be changing it to a DMR to combat Nest/Sniper rather than providing a damage buff for the Café choke?)

 

Mikwen's comments on Truth, as well as the overall sentiment from everyone about overpowered rifles would be alleviated with reduced ammo and/or Tier 2 timers, which is a topic I have elaborated on in-depth in this post. (This would also remove the duplicate Carbine/rifle issue that was brought up). Snowballing (not even just in terms of rifles) is also a problem that is accelerated due to Halo 5's choice of respawn timers.

 

Interesting thoughts on Empire. Personally, I want to see a full season played out with it first, but I doubt its going to be as gameplay-affecting as SAW or Scattershot. Most of the "camo play" examples you guys provided happen on every Strongholds map, but Empire provides a ridiculous lethality that is going to neutralize that Camo far more frequently. I do agree that the snowball nature of Empire needs to be addressed.

 

I agreed with a lot of what you guys said, it was definitely an awesome discussion to watch. But I think there needs to be a lot of improvement on how not only pros, but the entire competitive community as a whole delivers input to 343. Far too many times have I seen people mindlessly press for something to be removed from competitive Halo when the problem could be fixed with a simple change (Splinters, Caster, etc.)

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Tagging @@TiberiusAudley @@Mikwen and @@SnakeBite to share my thoughts and respond to some of your comments about settings with questions. Hopefully I can pull you guys into this thread to start a discussion.

 

First, I feel as though you guys, and other pros/competitive players, are tunnel visioning on removing the negatives (that 343 so desperately tries to cram down our throats) rather than refining them so they work for both parties. The overarching question I have to ask is this: Why are you using your valuable connection with 343 to push for the removal of items/problems, rather than refining them to be perfect for competitive play?

 

As an example, I've talked in depth about my personal thoughts about the Plasma Caster in this thread, noting that it was a skill-oriented weapon that struck a decent balance in Vanilla H5 due to its demand for fast reaction times and calculated thinking for correct angles on walls or floors. In the Memories of Reach Content Update, they "buffed" the Plasma Caster by reducing the time it took for bolts to detonate after they hit a surface. This, as you know, converted the weapon into a braindead, broken, one-dimensional, spam fest with a shit load of ammo. Thus, the Plasma Caster became a problem, and everyone in the competitive community shouted "remove the Plasma Caster!!"

 

When asked if they would revert this change to bring the Caster back down to its Vanilla-level strength, or approach it with a different buff, @@Deez (Quinn) responded with the following...

 

 

The fact that 343 can acknowledge the "unintended consequences" of a sandbox change and completely ignore how the weapon has fundamentally changed for the worse is beyond me, but a valuable piece of feedback you could have relayed to them would have been to rebalance/nerf-rebuff the Plasma Caster rather than desperately pushing for a removal. Clearly I couldn't get through to Quinn, but you guys have more power.

 

Mikwen talked about the Blue BR on Plaza, which damages the balance of the opening breakout. As a matter of fact, I critiqued this exact fact a few pages ago, stating that they need to find a way for both sides to have a clean fight at the start of the match. Tiberius mentioned that NV played a very blue-oriented setup, but I've seen a lot of other people claim that getting blocked out of Tram and stuck in Blue was completely brutal. What would be your perfect scenario to ensure that neither Blue nor Tram spawn traps would be lopsided? (Edit: Maybe a solution would be changing it to a DMR to combat Nest/Sniper rather than providing a damage buff for the Café choke?)

 

Mikwen's comments on Truth, as well as the overall sentiment from everyone about overpowered rifles would be alleviated with reduced ammo and/or Tier 2 timers, which is a topic I have elaborated on in-depth in this post. (This would also remove the duplicate Carbine/rifle issue that was brought up). Snowballing (not even just in terms of rifles) is also a problem that is accelerated due to Halo 5's choice of respawn timers.

 

Interesting thoughts on Empire. Personally, I want to see a full season played out with it first, but I doubt its going to be as gameplay-affecting as SAW or Scattershot. Most of the "camo play" examples you guys provided happen on every Strongholds map, but Empire provides a ridiculous lethality that is going to neutralize that Camo far more frequently. I do agree that the snowball nature of Empire needs to be addressed.

 

I agreed with a lot of what you guys said, it was definitely an awesome discussion to watch. But I think there needs to be a lot of improvement on how not only pros, but the entire competitive community as a whole delivers input to 343. Far too many times have I seen people mindlessly press for something to be removed from competitive Halo when the problem could be fixed with a simple change (Splinters, Caster, etc.)

 

 

I think the issue with asking for re-balancing of weapons is that 343 is scared as shit to do it and takes forever when they do, so the more realistic approach given the compressed timeframe that we have to balance these things is to remove them entirely.  Really sad, but i'm sure that's why its worked out the way it has up to this point.

 

The other issue with rebalancing is that people take it too far.  I'm not talking about just 343 here, but people's suggestions here and at other development companies.  They see what the problem is and over do it.  The caster is a perfect example.  The balance notes were:

 

  • Reduced non-charged timer from 0.5 to 0.3 (less overshooting of enemies)
  • Sticky grenade has less arc (to be able to place it on the map more reliably)
  • Sticky grenade detonation is now more damaging vs. vehicles, but less damaging vs bipeds (will still kill bipeds in one shot when stuck)
  • Increased sticky grenade submunition damage values from 43 to 75 (indirect fire from a sticky shot can now actually kill!)
  • Sticky submunition grenade inner AOE increased from 0.65 to 1.0

 

And they probably should have read more like:

 

  • Reduced non-charged timer from 0.5 to 0.3 0.4 (less overshooting of enemies)
  • Sticky grenade has less arc (to be able to place it on the map more reliably)
  • Sticky grenade detonation is now more damaging vs. vehicles, but less damaging vs bipeds (will still kill bipeds in one shot when stuck)
  • Increased sticky grenade submunition damage values from 43 to 75 53 (indirect fire from a sticky shot can now actually kill!)
  • Sticky submunition grenade inner AOE increased from 0.65 to 1.0 

 

Which is why I think this V is not such a good idea at first. 

 

 

Mikwen's comments on Truth, as well as the overall sentiment from everyone about overpowered rifles would be alleviated with reduced ammo and/or Tier 2 timers, which is a topic I have elaborated on in-depth in this post. (This would also remove the duplicate Carbine/rifle issue that was brought up). Snowballing (not even just in terms of rifles) is also a problem that is accelerated due to Halo 5's choice of respawn timers.

 

Though I am perfectly open to changing other map pickups to Tier 2 if necessary, I don't think its a good "next step" to jump to.  I don't think its a bad idea, i just think its "too far too fast" and adds some potentially unnecessary complication to weapon spawns, when a less drastic measure could alleviate the problem. 

 

IMO a better first step would be to change the respawn time on Tier 1 weapons from 15 seconds to more like 60 seconds. Or 45, or 75 or 90 or whatever. Doesn't need to be a multiple of 15 seconds either, that just seems like a logical tick-rate to change 1/4 minute at a time and I think 60 seconds is a good place to start.

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Though I am perfectly open to changing other map pickups to Tier 2 if necessary, I don't think its a good "next step" to jump to.  I don't think its a bad idea, i just think its "too far too fast" and adds some potentially unnecessary complication to weapon spawns, when a less drastic measure could alleviate the problem. 

 

IMO a better first step would be to change the respawn time on Tier 1 weapons from 15 seconds to more like 60 seconds. Or 45, or 75 or 90 or whatever. Doesn't need to be a multiple of 15 seconds either, that just seems like a logical tick-rate to change 1/4 minute at a time and I think 60 seconds is a good place to start.

 

 

I think the Plasma Caster's charge shot buff was a good one, but it definitely should kill if you land a charge shot stick. The single bolts MUST be reverted to their old detonation time to retain the weapons fundamental design (calculated angles/bounces/timing). If they wanted to buff the single bolts, they could

 

As for my Tier 2 request, I'm not saying that should be the definitive go to fix for people's complaints but it would cover a lot of bases rather than trying to juggle weapon placement like Mikwen discussed on The Pit. Increasing the respawn of Tier 1s wouldn't really fix the issue of snowballing, which is caused by high ammo counts and the ability to duplicate weapons. Either one, or both, needs to be addressed.

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@@GH057ayame Can you make a test version of The Rig with this jump up? I feel like it would improve the map flow during standoffs by allowing another route into tower.

2xqBJG2l.png 

 

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@@GH057ayame Can you make a test version of The Rig with this jump up? I feel like it would improve the map flow during standoffs by allowing another route into tower.

2xqBJG2l.png 

 

 

 

Yo this is actually a really tight idea. Good stuff. I'd suggest making it a non-clamberable ledge

(like Fathom's Sub ->Top Mid jumps)

 

It would make Tower more approachable from people trapped in Basement, but would still maintain Tower's strength because you'd still have to pass through the Yellow Corner sightline to get over to the Flank ledge.

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Yo this is actually a really tight idea. Good stuff. I'd suggest making it a non-clamberable ledge

(like Fathom's Sub ->Top Mid jumps)

 

It would make Tower more approachable from people trapped in Basement, but would still maintain Tower's strength because you'd still have to pass through the Yellow Corner sightline to get over to the Flank ledge.

Exactly what I was thinking too. It'd be nice because now teams could send someone on that flank and attack from yellow corner at the same time to try to retake Tower. 

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Yo this is actually a really tight idea. Good stuff. I'd suggest making it a non-clamberable ledge

(like Fathom's Sub ->Top Mid jumps)

 

It would make Tower more approachable from people trapped in Basement, but would still maintain Tower's strength because you'd still have to pass through the Yellow Corner sightline to get over to the Flank ledge.

I think its a cool route without radar, but i dont see much efficacy with it as long as "show me anything that isnt crouching" radar exists. It looks like a clamber jump so if anybody is holding tower they're just kill while you clamber.

 

I like it quite a bit without radar though. They should just add it anyway

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I think its a cool route without radar, but i dont see much efficacy with it as long as "show me anything that isnt crouching" radar exists. It looks like a clamber jump so if anybody is holding tower they're just kill while you clamber.

 

I like it quite a bit without radar though. They should just add it anyway

I just thought it'd be a good jump to do with someone jumping in the normal way from yellow corner. It's a "push the same area at the same time as your teammate" type of route. This way you wouldn't have to push in the same way and hope it works. 

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I just thought it'd be a good jump to do with someone jumping in the normal way from yellow corner. It's a "push the same area at the same time as your teammate" type of route. This way you wouldn't have to push in the same way and hope it works.

Oh yeah for sure. I would like to see it added anyway. I dont really see the downside of adding it now, even if radar nerfs the route for now since that will hopefully get fixed too.

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I think the Plasma Caster's charge shot buff was a good one, but it definitely should kill if you land a charge shot stick. The single bolts MUST be reverted to their old detonation time to retain the weapons fundamental design (calculated angles/bounces/timing). If they wanted to buff the single bolts, they could

 

As for my Tier 2 request, I'm not saying that should be the definitive go to fix for people's complaints but it would cover a lot of bases rather than trying to juggle weapon placement like Mikwen discussed on The Pit. Increasing the respawn of Tier 1s wouldn't really fix the issue of snowballing, which is caused by high ammo counts and the ability to duplicate weapons. Either one, or both, needs to be addressed.

 

Yeah the charge shot buff was good cuz that shit was weak. I remember for the first few months trying to use that caster since it was a "power weapon" and basically seeing the cluster of nades go off and not even come close to killing. So frustrating.  Specifics for the buffs in my example don't really matter so much as the principle that they should have changed maybe 1 or 2 aspects of the weapon first, instead of 5 different things.

 

I think the reduction in weapons overall is already going to help with snowballing slightly.  My "gut" tells me that Tier 2 timers for everything would add an unnecessary amount of unpredictability for weapon availability when applied to everything and could hamper trapped teams.  For example, if team A is in control and picked up the BR from Cafe on Plaza and has rotated back to S4 with it, team B trapped in Cafe/Flowers may want to pull that BR before making a push but it wont spawn until the other team drops it so that will never be an option. In this case having it be Tier 2 is adding to the snowballiness (niche example i know).

 

By extending that spawn for Tier 1s to ~1 minute you are still rewarding the controlling team by giving them the rifle for an longer, but allowing the other team to make a choice between waiting for the weapon to come back up, or pushing now.

 

On the flipside, having them all be tier 2 would be good because then you know how many weapons of any kind of available at a time and control snowballing by knowing that the controlling team is eventually going to run out of ammo. Part of my concern with this is 343 honestly.  I dont want them to think "well everything is T2 now so we can more weapons back on the map."

 

Obviously my "gut" on this doesn't count for much since we haven't played any games with either of these conditions set, so i would like to see both of them tested.

 

I hope to god that there is enough downtime after worlds so that we can actually test this stuff a lot with the people that matter.

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@@GH057ayame Can you make a test version of The Rig with this jump up? I feel like it would improve the map flow during standoffs by allowing another route into tower.

2xqBJG2l.png 

 

 

 

Yo this is actually a really tight idea. Good stuff. I'd suggest making it a non-clamberable ledge

(like Fathom's Sub ->Top Mid jumps)

 

It would make Tower more approachable from people trapped in Basement, but would still maintain Tower's strength because you'd still have to pass through the Yellow Corner sightline to get over to the Flank ledge.

 

You can bumjump to tower two from that ledge already, so adding a jump up would just make it take less skill...

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You can bumjump to tower two from that ledge already, so adding a jump up would just make it take less skill...

I can do every bumjump in the game consistently but this one. The surface area of the beam is too unrealistic. Not trying to make excuses but it should just have a normal jump-up there. I understand the "this jump would take less skill" idea but I feel like the jump skill should be consistent through out all arena maps. No reason for The Rig to have some way too risky jump compared to all the other maps when on, for example, Truth, you can just jump from bottom mid to top mid from 2 clambers. It should be uniform. 

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You can bumjump to tower two from that ledge already, so adding a jump up would just make it take less skill...

 

 

That bum jump requires a ridiculous frame perfect input. Your sprint need needs to be considerably high to hit it. It's possible, but impractical.

 

I think the reduction in weapons overall is already going to help with snowballing slightly.  My "gut" tells me that Tier 2 timers for everything would add an unnecessary amount of unpredictability for weapon availability when applied to everything and could hamper trapped teams.

 

I think it would add a new level of predictability. If a BR is missing, you can ask your team if they have it. If they don't, then the enemy team does or it will be on respawn soon (especially if they speed up the despawn times and lower ammo).

 

For example, if team A is in control and picked up the BR from Cafe on Plaza and has rotated back to S4 with it, team B trapped in Cafe/Flowers may want to pull that BR before making a push but it wont spawn until the other team drops it so that will never be an option. In this case having it be Tier 2 is adding to the snowballiness (niche example i know).

 

This is an example of why this system will only work if we make additional changes (faster despawns, less ammo, etc). That rotation requires a player to not only stay alive for a long time, but also make a lot of movement throughout the map. If they succeed in doing so, they are rewarded with the weapon control, but the BR wouldn't last as long if the ammo is reduced. A BR with only 2 clips would still reward that rotation and movement, but it would only be a temporary upgrade, and it would also encourage players to hold on to their Pistol rather than keeping the AR in their pocket. 

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I think the reduction in weapons overall is already going to help with snowballing slightly.  My "gut" tells me that Tier 2 timers for everything would add an unnecessary amount of unpredictability for weapon availability when applied to everything and could hamper trapped teams.

 

I think it would add a new level of predictability. If a BR is missing, you can ask your team if they have it. If they don't, then the enemy team does or it will be on respawn soon (especially if they speed up the despawn times and lower ammo).

 

For example, if team A is in control and picked up the BR from Cafe on Plaza and has rotated back to S4 with it, team B trapped in Cafe/Flowers may want to pull that BR before making a push but it wont spawn until the other team drops it so that will never be an option. In this case having it be Tier 2 is adding to the snowballiness (niche example i know).

 

This is an example of why this system will only work if we make additional changes (faster despawns, less ammo, etc). That rotation requires a player to not only stay alive for a long time, but also make a lot of movement throughout the map. If they succeed in doing so, they are rewarded with the weapon control, but the BR wouldn't last as long if the ammo is reduced. A BR with only 2 clips would still reward that rotation and movement, but it would only be a temporary upgrade, and it would also encourage players to hold on to their Pistol rather than keeping the AR in their pocket.

 

Good points.  Do you know what the despawn time is right now?

 

I know a way to keep players from having an AR in their pocket all the time... stop spawning with an AR  :simms:

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The new changes mean that the Truth bases will have absolutely no weapons in them at all, and the only rifles will be in power positions. What a complete turnaround, we're back to snowballing... Even worse now.

 

The opening breakout on Plaza still has a huge imbalance with the Blue BR.

 

I think Regret, Rig, Fathom, Empire, and Eden are looking good for this season. Coliseum I think could use a change or two but is also good.

 

Good points. Do you know what the despawn time is right now?

 

I know a way to keep players from having an AR in their pocket all the time... stop spawning with an AR :simms:

30 seconds I believe. I've played some 1v1 variants that played around with 10 or 15s despawns and tier 2 timers. Really made the flow of picking up weapons feel great.

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I'm salty about the SPNKR parity on Eden. It's fairly unreliable as a PW.

 

 

I was always in the anti-SPNKr camp, but lately I think I've been swayed. Unreliable isn't the word I would use, I'd say outplayable.

 

It's still strong enough to promote map movement, as proven by Empire Slayer and Eden Strongholds. I think Eden Slayer will play about the same, with less of a focus on defensive Rocket play.

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But as for giving the BR a different role? While im not opposed to it, I personally Think we should have one real utility weapon in the competive game. Trying to make the Carbine, BR etc unique weapons is a losing battle. They ultimately are precision utility role weapons.

The BR is not a utility weapon, its a close-mid range niche weapon and thats by design of its 3 round burst.

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The BR is not a utility weapon, its a close-mid range niche weapon and thats by design of its 3 round burst.

The the only rifle in the game with a niche is the Lightrifle. Every other rifle overlaps in use, regardless of whatever differences in functionality. They fill the same roles as each other and are completely redundant.
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