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Halo 5: Guardians Arena Gameplay Settings Thread

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Those are extremely loose comparisons and don't really even work in the way you describe them at the highest levels. I'm not even speaking on the quality or merit of either map (just to be clear). They've both got their strengths and weaknesses as designs but to be quite frank the comparison simply doesn't work even on a fundamental level. Sure, they're both inverse symmetrical maps that play CTF, but that's about it. It's the equivalent of saying Plaza is a lot like Lockout., when in reality the only similarities they have are that they are asymmetrical and they generally play a slower paced Slayer and a much faster paced Objective gametype.

 

 

Agree to disagree, I guess.

 

Skyline was an inverse symmetrical map that played nothing like Sanc IMO, and I feel like obviously sightlines and verticality are completely different between Fathom/Sanc but the way the map flows for CTF is pretty similar.

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I'm honestly shocked so many people like the Eden SH changes. I always thought top cat was an amazing hill, and would only be improved with moving red nests hill to where it is now.

 

For those of you that have played it, what's so much better about it? Do people both with top cat anymore? I feel like, you can't really properly defend the hills in their current positions with sprint and the other SA. You'd have to hop off so often to defend. 

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I'm honestly shocked so many people like the Eden SH changes. I always thought top cat was an amazing hill, and would only be improved with moving red nests hill to where it is now.

 

For those of you that have played it, what's so much better about it? Do people both with top cat anymore? I feel like, you can't really properly defend the hills in their current positions with sprint and the other SA. You'd have to hop off so often to defend.

Is very easy to defend the bends
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Well, @@VinFTW , in my experiences with the Eden SH changes the top cat is still pretty powerful for a couple of reasons. One being the height advantage directly over the bottom mid strong hold. You can move to Blue attic and have a great angle, or go to red bridge and have another great angle. The other reasons being it has an excellent sightline to blue bend, and access to the much improved caster. I've been trying to keep blue bend and bottom mid with top cat control and it's been working fairly well. The new setup does make it a bit more "hold and defend" rather than rotate to where you need to be.

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Well, @@VinFTW , in my experiences with the Eden SH changes the top cat is still pretty powerful for a couple of reasons. One being the height advantage directly over the bottom mid strong hold. You can move to Blue attic and have a great angle, or go to red bridge and have another great angle. The other reasons being it has an excellent sightline to blue bend, and access to the much improved caster. I've been trying to keep blue bend and bottom mid with top cat control and it's been working fairly well. The new setup does make it a bit more "hold and defend" rather than rotate to where you need to be.

Yeah that's what I was afraid of. I actually love Eden SH because of the rotations. I'm glad it plays well, but I don't think it's any better than it was tbh :/

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Well, @@VinFTW , in my experiences with the Eden SH changes the top cat is still pretty powerful for a couple of reasons. One being the height advantage directly over the bottom mid strong hold. You can move to Blue attic and have a great angle, or go to red bridge and have another great angle. The other reasons being it has an excellent sightline to blue bend, and access to the much improved caster. I've been trying to keep blue bend and bottom mid with top cat control and it's been working fairly well. The new setup does make it a bit more "hold and defend" rather than rotate to where you need to be.

 

 

This essentially. Eden Strongholds (Vanilla) was my favorite gametype in the game, so I'm approaching this new one extremely cautiously.

 

New Plaza Strongholds is extremely messy but Eden Strongholds seems to have some sort of order to it. It requires players to control Catwalk for rotations without giving them a free hill in the process. You have to drop to successfully cap Bottom Mid. It's definitely a tough question of how much power you want to give to players with Top Control.

 

I'd rather no changes happen unless Pro's 100% give it the okay, because they are able to break stuff easier than I am by only playing it 1-2 times a week.

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A Master in chess told me once,  "You should try to predict your opponents moves". The TeamBeyond 2v2 showed me why I love no radar. It requires a lot more teamwork, communication, and actual thinking. There was barely any of those sprint, thrust, slide plays due them not knowing where the opponent was. Watched some people actually make flanks without being noticed was nice to see as well. With radar on it's just free information, and it's boring gameplay. What I want is people to predict what I am going to do instead of know what I am going to do. So thank you to whoever actually tried no radar. I hope you can also ask those that played in the tournament their thoughts on it.

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A Master in chess told me once, "You should try to predict your opponents moves". The TeamBeyond 2v2 showed me why I love no radar. It requires a lot more teamwork, communication, and actual thinking. There was barely any of those sprint, thrust, slide plays due them not knowing where the opponent was. Watched some people actually make flanks without being noticed was nice to see as well. With radar on it's just free information, and it's boring gameplay. What I want is people to predict what I am going to do instead of know what I am going to do. So thank you to whoever actually tried no radar. I hope you can also ask those that played in the tournament their thoughts on it.

On the topic of radar, it's kinda strange that the reason people use is "it'll be too random". Well, yea you've been playing with radar the whole time of course it's gonna feel off. If all you played was social H3 and all of a sudden you hopped into MLG with no radar you would be super disoriented.

 

Also, we literally have hit markers on EVERYTHING which includes grenades. Plus, there are a shit ton of nades on the map. Hell, objective carriers pop up ON YOUR SCREEN too. With all these tools is it really that impossibly confusing to play with no radar? Have people even consistently practiced with this or was it a one time "I don't like this it feels weird" kinda deal? Radar is so annoying.

 

And no, I don't think a spartan ability only radar would be good because it punishes you for using the mechanics THE GAME GAVE YOU. Oh here's sprint and thrust but you can't use it. It doesn't stop corner camping really. If you need a radar it should either be always on no matter what, or always off IMO. You choose which sounds better.

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I don't really get into the whole settings thing, especially radar but I have questioned the outlook that seems to be so dominant around here. More than that though people are so adamant about that assumption to the point where they don't bother trying anything else. This post is where I first brought it up (2nd paragraph). No responses to it though, though its not that great/important so I see why.

 



On the topic of radar, it's kinda strange that the reason people use is "it'll be too random". Well, yea you've been playing with radar the whole time of course it's gonna feel off. If all you played was social H3 and all of a sudden you hopped into MLG with no radar you would be super disoriented.

 

The only thing I'll say in regards to this is it could be compared to NBNS in Reach. A lot of pros bitched about no sprint no bloom at first because they weren't used to it. They were used to being able to sprint away from bad/poor situations and not being punished for them. Taking sprint away decreased that significantly and they were punished for it, so they "bitched" (due to poor performance). I also seem to recall a few of them complaining about kill times being "too fast" or "so fast" with no bloom (lol). Well when you're used to sprint and bloom for like a year and then suddenly you have neither, where now your gun shoots straight, where you're punished more for bad plays and can't just sprint away from a fight, yeah it might give off that perception at first. They got used to it and learned to play Halo again without a crutch (and an awful mechanic). Obviously I can't speak for them, or their opinion on NSBS but the bitching did stop.

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I don't really get into the whole settings thing, especially radar but I have questioned the outlook that seems to be so dominant around here. More than that though people are so adamant about that assumption to the point where they don't bother trying anything else. This post is where I first brought it up (2nd paragraph). No responses to it though, though its not that great/important so I see why.

 

 

The only thing I'll say in regards to this is it could be compared to NBNS in Reach. A lot of pros bitched about no sprint no bloom at first because they weren't used to it. They were used to being able to sprint away from bad/poor situations and not being punished for them. Taking sprint away decreased that significantly and they were punished for it, so they "bitched" (due to poor performance). I also seem to recall a few of them complaining about kill times being "too fast" or "so fast" with no bloom (lol). Well when you're used to sprint and bloom for like a year and then suddenly you have neither, where now your gun shoots straight, where you're punished more for bad plays and can't just sprint away from a fight, yeah it might give off that perception at first. They got used to it and learned to play Halo again without a crutch (and an awful mechanic). Obviously I can't speak for them, or their opinion on NSBS but the bitching did stop.

Hmmm that's interesting. I didn't really watch Reach at all, but I assumed NBNS was welcomed with open arms. People actually complained? And they thought kill times were too fast lol? I guess that helps me understand why people seem to be so fixated on keeping radar in, this same scenario already happened. This is the problem with launching a game a certain way. People become so stubborn without giving equal time and consideration to the other side's argument. If the game launched without a radar this would be a non-issue. All the pros mocking people that want radar off would be laughing their ASSES OFF at people asking for radar. Seriously, this is so lame.

 

Oh, and hey radar fans! We have all played no radar for around 6 months. How long have you played without it? Every radar hater already knows how the game plays with it, yet none of you know how it plays without it.

 

Competitive games are supposed to be difficult. That's the point. Why are we babying people by giving them a million ways to get cheese kills and do better?

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Hmmm that's interesting. I didn't really watch Reach at all, but I assumed NBNS was welcomed with open arms. People actually complained? And they thought kill times were too fast lol? I guess that helps me understand why people seem to be so fixated on keeping radar in, this same scenario already happened.

 

Oh it was welcomed - there was just an adjustment time period. During that period there were just complaints due to the drastic difference between the 2 settings and needing to adjust how you played the game.

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Competitive games are supposed to be difficult. That's the point.

Gonna nitpick here, but I have to disagree with this little tidbit. Difficulty does not make a game competitive, nor is it a requirement.

 

COD, LoL, and Smash Brothers are good examples of this. Just because they're easier than CS, DotA, and Street Fighter respectively does not make them any less competitive. They're games that are easy to pick up but difficult to master, with play styles changing dramatically at the professional level.

 

I don't like radar, but I don't agree with statements like this. I think radar should get removed because of the problems it causes, not because it makes the game easier.

 

For instance, look at weapon timers. Other than revealing when someone picks them up, they're a good addition that help out lower-level players. But if we look at past Halos, timing power weapons was a skill. Removing weapon timers would bring back that skill, but would it really make the game more competitive? Timing power weapons was essentially memorizing a bunch of numbers and weapon locations. Sure it wasn't that hard, but was it really that "skillful" to know that a Rocket Launcher spawned after X amounts of time? If anything, it was more tedious than truly "competitive". Skill should be dictated by players fighting over power weapons, not by someone memorizing the right numbers and being sneaky.

 

For a simpler example, imagine removing the weapon crosshair. Sure it'd make the game harder for everyone, but would it really be better, or even more competitive?

 

My point is, removing something that makes the game easier for the sake of making it "competitive" does not make it more competitive, it just makes the game more difficult to play.

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It is a requirement if you want to define 'competitive' how it normally is. Rock, paper, scissors may or may not have 'competitions' but it is not a 'competitive' game. 

 

And COD IS less competitive than CS:GO owing to the difference in aiming skill ceiling. 

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It is a requirement if you want to define 'competitive' how it normally is. Rock, paper, scissors may or may not have 'competitions' but it is not a 'competitive' game. 

Generally speaking, people here would use skill gap to gauge how competitive a game is. Contrary to popular belief, making a game harder doesn't raise its skill gap, it raises its skill floor. Here's a picture I made to clear up the misconception.

 

y6RH6hd.jpg

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Gonna nitpick here, but I have to disagree with this little tidbit. Difficulty does not make a game competitive, nor is it a requirement.

 

COD, LoL, and Smash Brothers are good examples of this. Just because they're easier than CS, DotA, and Street Fighter respectively does not make them any less competitive. They're games that are easy to pick up but difficult to master, with play styles changing dramatically at the professional level.

 

I don't like radar, but I don't agree with statements like this. I think radar should get removed because of the problems it causes, not because it makes the game easier.

 

For instance, look at weapon timers. Other than revealing when someone picks them up, they're a good addition that help out lower-level players. But if we look at past Halos, timing power weapons was a skill. Removing weapon timers would bring back that skill, but would it really make the game more competitive? Timing power weapons was essentially memorizing a bunch of numbers and weapon locations. Sure it wasn't that hard, but was it really that "skillful" to know that a Rocket Launcher spawned after X amounts of time? If anything, it was more tedious than truly "competitive". Skill should be dictated by players fighting over power weapons, not by someone memorizing the right numbers and being sneaky.

 

For a simpler example, imagine removing the weapon crosshair. Sure it'd make the game harder for everyone, but would it really be better, or even more competitive?

 

My point is, removing something that makes the game easier for the sake of making it "competitive" does not make it more competitive, it just makes the game more difficult to play.

This is going to mainly be a battle of semantics on the definition of "difficult". I do agree for the most part with what you are saying although CoD isn't exactly the pinnacle "competitive" to me. I also think the other games you mentioned are in fact difficult (hence why I said this is just a definitions problem). Yes, making things difficult for the sake of difficulty doesn't make a game competitive. Adding a 1 second input delay makes a game more "difficult" but not more competitive. God, this is so annoying to type out.

 

Basically difficulty is very hard to gauge, so skill gap should just be the word used instead. Also, I don't want radar in for the sole reason of "it's more difficult, the game plays much more fluidly and it also happens to make the game more difficult. On the point of weapon pads there are arguments to each side. Weapon pads are a great concept and thy actually increase the skill gap. However, 343 had the genius idea of making the weapon waypoint leave when the weapon is picked up. That, along with radar, makes baiting power weapons WAY too common. Is that more skillful than the previous titles? Who knows.

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Generally speaking, people here would use skill gap to gauge how competitive a game is. Contrary to popular belief, making a game harder doesn't raise its skill gap, it raises its skill floor. Here's a picture I made to clear up the misconception.

 

y6RH6hd.jpg

 

 

But that depends on what you do to make it harder. You may raise only the skill ceiling by making a mechanic harder because that mechanic is only really utilised by top players, or  by having a mechanic that players at a lower end don't 'need' in order to play the game. Or you may raise both skill ceiling and skill floor and in so doing raise the 'top level' skill gap while also raising the lower level skill ceiling. For example, making the sniper harder to use would raise the skill floor and the skill ceiling, so the 'skill gap' would be no different. However, the difference between top level sniper players would be accentuated and thus the game would be more competitive. Technically the overall skill gap hasn't changed but the top level skill gap has, and that is because you made a mechanic harder and thus raised the top level skill ceiling. 

 

However, you may just raise the skill floor because your change only made it harder for average players and did nothing to make it harder for pros who could do the thing already. Removing visual timers on weapons is an example of that. Good players can time either way, rubbish players can't. Removing the indicator would just remove a useful mechanic for lower end players while doing nothing to make the game harder for better players. 

 

Which one is radar? That's the question we need to be answering, not this unhelpful generalisation that making a game harder doesn't make the game more competitive, when it manifestly does and would in certain places within Halo 5 as it currently is. 

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On the topic of radar, it's kinda strange that the reason people use is "it'll be too random". Well, yea you've been playing with radar the whole time of course it's gonna feel off. If all you played was social H3 and all of a sudden you hopped into MLG with no radar you would be super disoriented.

 

Also, we literally have hit markers on EVERYTHING which includes grenades. Plus, there are a shit ton of nades on the map. Hell, objective carriers pop up ON YOUR SCREEN too. With all these tools is it really that impossibly confusing to play with no radar? Have people even consistently practiced with this or was it a one time "I don't like this it feels weird" kinda deal? Radar is so annoying.

 

And no, I don't think a spartan ability only radar would be good because it punishes you for using the mechanics THE GAME GAVE YOU. Oh here's sprint and thrust but you can't use it. It doesn't stop corner camping really. If you need a radar it should either be always on no matter what, or always off IMO. You choose which sounds better.

When people says the game will be too random without radar, they are talking about the ability to predict your opponents next move.

 

Think of a game of chess. You know exactly what each of you opponents peices are capable of doing, and you can make assumptions about what your opponent will view as her best move. That describes how Halo has worked prior to Spartan Abilities. There were a finite number of angles and routes into every location, so even without radar, a good team could anticipate their opponents next move.

 

Spartan abilities and the ability to chain them together, have exponentially increased how unpredictable an opponent can be. Especially with clamber increasing the margin of error for pulling of trickier moves. It doesn't take a stretch of the imagination that turning off radar would make things less like a game of chess, and more like something chaotic and unwieldy. I think pros who have tested have already stated as much.

 

Radar is meant to mitigate the chaos brought on by the Spartan Abilities...Which is why is shouldn't track players who aren't using Spartan Abilites.

 

I think an abilities-only radar would immediately open up opportunities for strategy wilst deincentivizing crouch camping:

 

1: At times when no one is on your radar, you'll being relying purely on awareness and team work to avoid flanks. In these moments, Knowledge that your opponent isn't using Abilities around you, limits the number of possible flank routes you need to cover. Now it's a matter of predicting the next move, just like in previous halos.

 

2: using Spartan abilities would require a risk/reward analysis. The player needs to decided if the gains from using particular maneuver is worth giving up their position. Or they could be intentionally giving up their position, while a teammate flanks stealthily.

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When people says the game will be too random without radar, they are talking about the ability to predict your opponents next move.

 

Think of a game of chess. You know exactly what each of you opponents peices are capable of doing, and you can make assumptions about what your opponent will view as her best move. That describes how Halo has worked prior to Spartan Abilities. There were a finite number of angles and routes into every location, so even without radar, a good team could anticipate their opponents next move.

 

Spartan abilities and the ability to chain them together, have exponentially increased how unpredictable an opponent can be. Especially with clamber increasing the margin of error for pulling of trickier moves. It doesn't take a stretch of the imagination that turning off radar would make things less like a game of chess, and more like something chaotic and unwieldy. I think pros who have tested have already stated as much.

 

Radar is meant to mitigate the chaos brought on by the Spartan Abilities...Which is why is shouldn't track players who aren't using Spartan Abilites.

 

I think an abilities-only radar would immediately open up opportunities for strategy wilst deincentivizing crouch camping:

 

1: At times when no one is on your radar, you'll being relying purely on awareness and team work to avoid flanks. In these moments, Knowledge that your opponent isn't using Abilities around you, limits the number of possible flank routes you need to cover. Now it's a matter of predicting the next move, just like in previous halos.

 

2: using Spartan abilities would require a risk/reward analysis. The player needs to decided if the gains from using particular maneuver is worth giving up their position. Or they could be intentionally giving up their position, while a teammate flanks stealthily.

So what you mean to tell me is, is that Halo 5 is just SO random and SOOO chaotic that it is the only game ever, in the ENTIRE FRANCHISE, that just can't work without a radar? Then what the hell does that say about the game itself? Let's not act like radar solves more issues than it creates. Allowing someone to know exactly where you are from around walls is plain fucking cheese.

 

And what are you basing this off of? Have you extensively played with no radar? Or are you assuming it will be too random?

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To be fair only having radar when spartan abilities are being used (the movement ones at least) is basically the same outcome as what you're wanting BEAST. It also nerfs spartan abilities a bit, which is a good thing. 

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This essentially. Eden Strongholds (Vanilla) was my favorite gametype in the game, so I'm approaching this new one extremely cautiously.

 

New Plaza Strongholds is extremely messy but Eden Strongholds seems to have some sort of order to it. It requires players to control Catwalk for rotations without giving them a free hill in the process. You have to drop to successfully cap Bottom Mid. It's definitely a tough question of how much power you want to give to players with Top Control.

 

I'd rather no changes happen unless Pro's 100% give it the okay, because they are able to break stuff easier than I am by only playing it 1-2 times a week.

I have a feeling a lot of pros are going to oppose any changes to the meta because that's going to require them to relearn all their strats and openings which they've been using for the past 6 or so months.

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To be fair only having radar when spartan abilities are being used (the movement ones at least) is basically the same outcome as what you're wanting BEAST. It also nerfs spartan abilities a bit, which is a good thing.

I mean, I wouldn't complain if they did that, but to me it's the same issue as no regenerating health while sprinting. So much effort is being out into making the abilities as weak as possible rather than just removing them altogether. If we are gonna use a radar that punishes spartan ability use even more then why not remove the abilities themselves? They are the core issues with the "randomness" and spartan charge is just ass. Just seems redundant to me that's all.
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There are elements of the spartan abilities that are good. They should have been integrated better, in such a way that they didn't separate movement and combat, but you only have to watch the way the pro players can move, and the resulting movement skill gap, to know that they're not all bad. Except spartan charge, that has no redeeming features. 

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So what you mean to tell me is, is that Halo 5 is just SO random and SOOO chaotic that it is the only game ever, in the ENTIRE FRANCHISE, that just can't work without a radar? Then what the hell does that say about the game itself? Let's not act like radar solves more issues than it creates. Allowing someone to know exactly where you are from around walls is plain fucking cheese.

 

And what are you basing this off of? Have you extensively played with no radar? Or are you assuming it will be too random?

I don't know what to tell you. If you haven't realized halo 5 is VERY different from previous halo's when it comes to navigating the maps. So much so that it's much more difficult to tell what direction engagements will come from.

 

What does it say about Halo5? It says that it's different. Whether or not its a good change is subjective... I think it's fun to watch, But it needs to be balanced. It's my opinion that SA-only radar would help provide that balance wilst eliminating crouch camping.

 

I have played without radar, and it was fine, but the people I play with and against aren't capable of utilizing Spartan abilities to their fullest potential. But from what I understand, people who do have a better grasp on mobility, have played without radar, and the impressions haven't been good. It doesn't take a stretch of the imagine why that would be.

 

Hard to defend against stuff like this, when playing against people good enough to pull it off from multiple angles:

 

OMG HOW HAS NOBODY POSTED THIS YET

 

9kwKkvS.gif

For the record I'm not opposed to seeing both approaches tested. But apparently no radar already has been tested by high level players.
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The idea that Halo 5 is so chaotic to not need radar is ridiculous. In the playlists no radar would even be turned on, you will likely have 3 other teammates calling out anyway. Plus you get a shit ton of information in this game regardless of radar or not.

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I have a feeling a lot of pros are going to oppose any changes to the meta because that's going to require them to relearn all their strats and openings which they've been using for the past 6 or so months.

Yeeep.

 

There are elements of the spartan abilities that are good. They should have been integrated better, in such a way that they didn't separate movement and combat, but you only have to watch the way the pro players can move, and the resulting movement skill gap, to know that they're not all bad. Except spartan charge, that has no redeeming features. 

 

 

Spartan Charge promotes offensive Sprint usage and removes the ability to Sprint melee and get a gimmicky kill off of that. The problem with it is its magnetism to automatically lock on to targets. Its definitely the ability that takes the least skill, which isn't good.

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