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Halo 5: Guardians Arena Gameplay Settings Thread

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Regardless of how well 343 optimizes the AR for competitive play it will always be frustrating to die by the weapon in a close range encounter as long as Halo 5's magnum is an inadequate utility weapon and Halo 5's melee mechanics are atrocious. Like @@MultiLockOn pointed out earlier the best way to ensure that the majority of close range encounters are won by skill is to make Halo 5'a melee mechanics more skillful and to buff Halo 5's magnum so it can become a more adequate utility weapon. After we ensure that Halo 5's melee mechanics are more skillful and that Halo 5's magnum is a more adequate utility weapon then we should prioritize optimizing the AR and the rest of the weapon sandbox for competitive play.

Well this is true.

 

Could always just implement the Evolved damage tweaks into H5 competitive settings, problem solved.

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Well this is true.

 

Could always just implement the Evolved damage tweaks into H5 competitive settings, problem solved.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ problem solved

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously though even that would be far from perfect.

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The real question we have to ask is; What will 343 do to retool the AR? For all we know, they might not do anything significant to the AR at all. I mean, they just half-assed, albeit still welcome, nerfed the Sniper Rifles bullet mag. For all we know, their retooling will leave us back at square one, or even worse off. Just saying it's a possibility.

I mean. We have no way of knowing. They (finally) listened to feedback, and took it out. And will probably put any tweaked AR in proving grounds before putting it back officially, so I'm not really worked about being back at square one or being worse off.

 

The most likely scenario is they bring it back, it isn't well received and it stays out... No additional harm done.

 

<p>

 

Regardless of how well 343 optimizes the AR for competitive play it will always be frustrating to die by the weapon in a close range encounter as long as Halo 5's magnum is an inadequate utility weapon and Halo 5's melee mechanics are atrocious. Like @@MultiLockOn pointed out earlier the best way to ensure that the majority of close range encounters are won by skill is to make Halo 5's melee mechanics more skillful and to buff Halo 5's magnum so it can become a more adequate utility weapon. After we ensure that Halo 5's melee mechanics are more skillful and that Halo 5's magnum is a more adequate utility weapon then we should prioritize optimizing the AR and the rest of the weapon sandbox for competitive play.

If the AR is to be a starting weapon, I think magnum, AR and melee fixes should be prioritized equally, since they would all effectively be the standard bearers of the sandbox.

 

Really, they should have more than enough feedback on how to fix the magnum, and @@Neighbor has already mentioned bringing skilled melee back to the table.

 

AR and Automatics are something that have been done so poorly for so long, cutting them out has been the go to solution. that's why there is so much discussion to be had.

 

PS: those are some pretty amazing posts that I had missed the first time around.

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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ problem solved

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously though even that would be far from perfect.

Yep, but possibly better than what exists now.

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@Il Meanbean lI and @@Kell Of Scots

 

I would say that I definitely agree on a straight shooting AR with some recoil instead of bloom or spread.

 

For you guys would it behave something like this? Example:

 

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/SMARTAN%20427/video/30016428

 

This is close to how I would imagine it.

 

 

 

Anyway, in my previous example post I showed how I would prefer the SMG.

 

However, I would like if the AR was made into a perfectly accurate and more skillful, yet weak DPS weapon that can be used at all ranges. Headshot multipliers would benefit the weapon's balance and skillcheck in this case.

 

My favorite example of this is the XO16 Chaingun that the Titans could equip from their very limited arsenal in Titanfall 1. This weapon was the weakest in damage output, but had a lot of ammo and was one the most accurate weapons, being hitscan from what I remember, and with headshot multipliers. It was used quite a bit as an all-purpose consistent damage weapon that was also very good for harassment and suppression. A so-called utility auto weapon, if you will.

 

Here is a video of it in action against AI Titans:

 

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/SMARTAN%20427/video/30016832

 

At the same time in Titanfall 1, you also had the 40mm Cannon, which was practically exactly akin to what you would expect from a utility precision weapon from Halo. It had much higher damage per shot in usually semi-auto form, but also sometimes burst-fire form, with projectiles that you had to lead at range as well as account for bullet drop. This was also used as an all-purpose weapon but with the usual precision weapon traits and benefits.

 

Here is a video of the 40mm Cannon in action against AI Titans for comparison:

 

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/SMARTAN%20427/video/30017143

 

Although probably unlikely for H5, I believe that it could be very possible to have a utility precision weapon and utility auto weapon in a future Halo sandbox, in a similar fashion to Titanfall 1.

 

My ideal AR:

 

100% accurate (zero bloom or spread)

 

Possibly some subtle recoil.

 

Significantly reduced aim assist and magnetism with a smaller reticule to match.

 

2x zoom, like the utility precision weapon.

 

40 rounds in a Mag.

 

10 or 11 shots to break shields. 5 or 6 to the body afterwards, or 3 to the head. The current H5 AR killtime of 15 bodyshots or 12 with the shieldless headshots actually seems like a good start assuming that this new proposed variant be more difficult to aim.

 

The full auto trait still makes it naturally easier to use, but weaker to balance, and this would be in a sandbox alongside a utility precision weapon designed similarly to the CE Magnum.

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Yep, but possibly better than what exists now.

Something along those lines is what seems to be generally agreed upon in this forum, for the most part.

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Its biggest feature is the 4sk Magnum, which I have supported for a LONG time, but a lot of people are apparently not comfortable with the notion of a half decent utility weapon and empowering individual players beyond basic team shot meta. It would be the simplest change with the biggest impact, but I guess its more productive to spend a bunch of energy redesigning all of the weapons around a shitty utility weapon instead of just making it good.

Believe it or not, we can buff the utility weapon and redesign the sandbox around it at the same time.

 

The huge issues with the H5 sandbox are still very apparent even with the buffed Magnum utility weapon in Evolved.

 

There is no harm in trying to also fix what all actually is broken.

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AR and Automatics are something that have been done so poorly for so long, cutting them out has been the go to solution. that's why there is so much discussion to be had.

Sorry if my post came off like I was trying to derail the current discussion on balancing the AR for competitive play. My intention was to emphasize the importance of optimizing the AR and the rest of the weapon sandbox for competitive play in conjunction with making Halo 5's magnum a more adequate utility weapon and making Halo 5's melee mechanics more skillful. Otherwise Halo 5's weapon sandbox will still suffer from a plethora of issues regardless if 343 balances the AR for competitive play by making the weapon more skill orientated.

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@Il Meanbean lI and @@Kell Of Scots

 

I would say that I definitely agree on a straight shooting AR with some recoil instead of bloom or spread.

 

For you guys would it behave something like this? Example:

 

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/SMARTAN%20427/video/30016428

 

This is close to how I would imagine it.

 

 

 

Anyway, in my previous example post I showed how I would prefer the SMG.

 

However, I would like if the AR was made into a perfectly accurate and more skillful, yet weak DPS weapon that can be used at all ranges. Headshot multipliers would benefit the weapon's balance and skillcheck in this case.

 

My favorite example of this is the XO16 Chaingun that the Titans could equip from their very limited arsenal in Titanfall 1. This weapon was the weakest in damage output, but had a lot of ammo and was one the most accurate weapons, being hitscan from what I remember, and with headshot multipliers. It was used quite a bit as an all-purpose consistent damage weapon that was also very good for harassment and suppression. A so-called utility auto weapon, if you will.

 

Here is a video of it in action against AI Titans:

 

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/SMARTAN%20427/video/30016832

 

At the same time in Titanfall 1, you also had the 40mm Cannon, which was practically exactly akin to what you would expect from a utility precision weapon from Halo. It had much higher damage per shot in usually semi-auto form, but also sometimes burst-fire form, with projectiles that you had to lead at range as well as account for bullet drop. This was also used as an all-purpose weapon but with the usual precision weapon traits and benefits.

 

Here is a video of the 40mm Cannon in action against AI Titans for comparison:

 

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/SMARTAN%20427/video/30017143

 

Although probably unlikely for H5, I believe that it could be very possible to have a utility precision weapon and utility auto weapon in a future Halo sandbox, in a similar fashion to Titanfall 1.

 

My ideal AR:

 

100% accurate (zero bloom or spread)

 

Possibly some subtle recoil.

 

Significantly reduced aim assist and magnetism with a smaller reticule to match.

 

2x zoom, like the utility precision weapon.

 

40 rounds in a Mag.

 

10 or 11 shots to break shields. 5 or 6 to the body afterwards, or 3 to the head. The current H5 AR killtime of 15 bodyshots or 12 with the shieldless headshots actually seems like a good start assuming that this new proposed variant be more difficult to aim.

 

The full auto trait still makes it naturally easier to use, but weaker to balance, and this would be in a sandbox alongside a utility precision weapon designed similarly to the CE Magnum.

I like it honestly. Pretty much what I suggested, without actually making it a true precision weapon.

 

Dunno which I'd prefer. A Precision AR or yours.

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Sorry if my post came off like I was trying to derail the current discussion on balancing the AR for competitive play. My intention was to emphasize the importance of optimizing the AR and the rest of the weapon sandbox for competitive play in conjunction with making Halo 5's magnum a more adequate utility weapon and making Halo 5's melee mechanics more skillful. Otherwise Halo 5's weapon sandbox will still suffer from a plethora of issues regardless if 343 balances the AR for competitive play by making the weapon more skill orientated.

No need to apologize. You're 100% correct. The magnum and melee's need to be addressed too.

 

I'd say the magnum and melee are more important topics if Auto's are going to stay out of the competitive side of the game.

 

But I know they want to bring the back, so I want these three things to be top priority.

 

I think that an AR that is useful at all levels of play, But has a notable skill gap would be good for Halo over all.

 

On another note, we need to be realistic when considering the type of AR tweaks they could impliment in this game. I really doubt moving from a spread to recoil based, straight shooting gun is Possible in H5s lifespan

 

It's a great concept though. The auto sandbox CAN be much more competitive and interesting than it has been historically.

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Believe it or not, we can buff the utility weapon and redesign the sandbox around it at the same time.

 

The huge issues with the H5 sandbox are still very apparent even with the buffed Magnum utility weapon in Evolved.

 

There is no harm in trying to also fix what all actually is broken.

 

Cut the sarcasm, bud. I am aware. But given a choice between the two, buffing the magnum is simpler and more impactful. Completely redesigning the AR to behave in a fashion pretty much completely different from any variation thus far in the series at best solves ONE problem. A utility weapon that isn't piss weak positively impacts the entirety of the sandbox.

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I don't think the autos taking the role of clean up is bad given how easy to use they naturally are in halo.

 

Edited because I fucked up what I wanted to say initially.

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I don't think the autos having any other role other than clean up is bad given how easy they naturally are in halo.

 

This. While there are some great suggestions in this thread, I think by now the Assault Rifle has an established place in Halo's sandbox: A fairly forgiving easy to use fully auto weapon that excels at close range. It's the opposite of the precision starting weapon that is supposed to be high-risk coupled with high rewards. People would freak out if their beloved AR suddenly took skill to use and required headshots to kill opponents. We could add a silenced SMG to fill that role, but turning the AR into something it's not and has never been almost two years into the game is not the way to go.

 

All the AR needs is a very slight damage nerf coupled with removal of ADS bonuses. Or better, as @@arglactable said let's just buff the Magnum, which also helps keeping the rest of the brokenly easy sandbox in check and makes the Spartan Abilities less of a factor.

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Cut the sarcasm, bud. I am aware. But given a choice between the two, buffing the magnum is simpler and more impactful. Completely redesigning the AR to behave in a fashion pretty much completely different from any variation thus far in the series at best solves ONE problem. A utility weapon that isn't piss weak positively impacts the entirety of the sandbox.

If you are so aware (which yes, I know that you are), then why, of all people, do you choose to keep reminding me?

 

And who said that we have to choose? What is stopping us from having both a good core utility weapon and a sandbox redesigned to be much more skillful/interesting around it?

 

We don't need to keep spending energy on how to design a good core utility weapon, because we already have a 99% perfect example of it in HCE via the OG Magnum (the only changes being to remove the unnecessary spread and full auto function with a smaller/more precise reticule).

 

Even in the context of H5 we have the Evolved 4sk Magnum, but the sandbox around it is still terrible.

 

We all already know that we want a good core utility weapon, and what it looks like in practice. We are highly aware that it is the standard to balance the sandbox around in Halo.

 

But a good core utility weapon doesn't automatically make the sandbox around it much more interesting, it only keeps it all in check. And it seems like almost no one ever wants to talk about how we can make a much more interesting sandbox than Halo Devs have traditionally done. So we get nowhere.

 

Are some of the ideas in this thread too far-fetched and unlikely for H5 at this point in it's lifespan? Most likely. But they all can help to hopefully push the next game in the right direction.

 

It is my favorite way to be constructive on these forums.

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No need to apologize. You're 100% correct. The magnum and melee's need to be addressed too.

 

I'd say the magnum and melee are more important topics if Auto's are going to stay out of the competitive side of the game.

 

But I know they want to bring the back, so I want these three things to be top priority.

 

I think that an AR that is useful at all levels of play, But has a notable skill gap would be good for Halo over all.

 

On another note, we need to be realistic when considering the type of AR tweaks they could impliment in this game. I really doubt moving from a spread to recoil based, straight shooting gun is Possible in H5s lifespan

 

It's a great concept though. The auto sandbox CAN be much more competitive and interesting than it has been historically.

 

This is something that i can't help but feel a lot of people ignore.  I don't even mention half the things that i think about because this is a discussion about what we can do with Halo 5 and they are simply impractical.

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Cut the sarcasm, bud. I am aware. But given a choice between the two, buffing the magnum is simpler and more impactful. Completely redesigning the AR to behave in a fashion pretty much completely different from any variation thus far in the series at best solves ONE problem. A utility weapon that isn't piss weak positively impacts the entirety of the sandbox.

Accidental rep

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If you are so aware (which yes, I know that you are), then why, of all people, do you choose to keep reminding me?

 

Because I have concerns with your approach to the problem and your specific idea and you keep getting hyper-defensive about it (like when anyone suggested removing any weapon from Evolved). I'll give you a simple break down before I stop responding.

 

1. Simpler, more impactful changes are more realistic and more useful. Completely redefining the AR is like addressing a dusty room by painting the walls instead of just using a vacuum. Now the walls are a different color. Great. What if you don't like the new color? The floor is still dirty.

 

​2. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'm not sure why this needs to be said. The basic premise of the AR has never been a problem in Halo and it isn't one now. The problem with H5's AR was tacking on extra "aim skill" rewards (headshot bonuses) on a weapon that is still fundamentally a low skill medium-long range bullet hose with random spread and recoil. Making the magnum a 4sk is just making it better at what it already does. Not turning it into a totally different weapon.

 

3. More precision hit-scan weapons does not add meaningful variety to the sandbox. If we're going with your premise of no spread/bloom with "subtle recoil," it sounds a hell of a lot like the Rain of Oblivion, the more obnoxious version of the Carbine (but not the most obnoxious version). The Carbine is one of the most problematic weapons in H5 Arena, aside from the SR and BPR. I'm not sure how many people are considering this comparison.

 

4. Spam-friendly precision weapons are obnoxious in Halo and PARTICULARLY in Halo 5. See the problems with the Carbine for reference. Constant de-scoping at long range is basically a one way ticket to windmill central with the Magnum.

 

5. Not every weapon needs to be designed to reward gun skill. This is especially true if you already have one weapon that does so adequately in all situations and isn't completely stepped on by the rest of the sandbox. I'm not sure why people got it in their heads that the AR needs to be particularly relevant in competitive play. Let it be the "noob" weapon.

 

6. This is the "H5 Arena Gameplay Settings" thread, not the "Design the Ideal Sandbox for your Dream Halo" thread.

 

My suggestion is pretty simple. 4sk magnum, no headshot multipliers for any automatics (period), and reduced bullet magnetism across the board. This maintains the basic structure of their (obviously sub-optimal) sandbox design while improving it substantially across the board. At that point, maybe overhauling some weapon functionality is feasible, but I HIGHLY doubt much on that front will be happening in the lifespan this game. And, again, this thread is about Halo 5.

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Because I have concerns with your approach to the problem and your specific idea and you keep getting hyper-defensive about it (like when anyone suggested removing any weapon from Evolved). I'll give you a simple break down before I stop responding.

 

1. Simpler, more impactful changes are more realistic and more useful. Completely redefining the AR is like addressing a dusty room by painting the walls instead of just using a vacuum. Now the walls are a different color. Great. What if you don't like the new color? The floor is still dirty.

 

​2. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'm not sure why this needs to be said. The basic premise of the AR has never been a problem in Halo and it isn't one now. The problem with H5's AR was tacking on extra "aim skill" rewards (headshot bonuses) on a weapon that is still fundamentally a low skill medium-long range bullet hose with random spread and recoil. Making the magnum a 4sk is just making it better at what it already does. Not turning it into a totally different weapon.

 

3. More precision hit-scan weapons does not add meaningful variety to the sandbox. If we're going with your premise of no spread/bloom with "subtle recoil," it sounds a hell of a lot like the Rain of Oblivion, the more obnoxious version of the Carbine (but not the most obnoxious version). The Carbine is one of the most problematic weapons in H5 Arena, aside from the SR and BPR. I'm not sure how many people are considering this comparison.

 

4. Spam-friendly precision weapons are obnoxious in Halo and PARTICULARLY in Halo 5. See the problems with the Carbine for reference. Constant de-scoping at long range is basically a one way ticket to windmill central with the Magnum.

 

5. Not every weapon needs to be designed to reward gun skill. This is especially true if you already have one weapon that does so adequately in all situations and isn't completely stepped on by the rest of the sandbox. I'm not sure why people got it in their heads that the AR needs to be particularly relevant in competitive play. Let it be the "noob" weapon.

 

6. This is the "H5 Arena Gameplay Settings" thread, not the "Design the Ideal Sandbox for your Dream Halo" thread.

 

My suggestion is pretty simple. 4sk magnum, no headshot multipliers for any automatics (period), and reduced bullet magnetism across the board. This maintains the basic structure of their (obviously sub-optimal) sandbox design while improving it substantially across the board. At that point, maybe overhauling some weapon functionality is feasible, but I HIGHLY doubt much on that front will be happening in the lifespan this game. And, again, this thread is about Halo 5.

I'm not the only one with the radical, unrealistic ideas. I have been trying to say that I totally see the core point you are making and I mostly otherwise agree.

 

1. I was actually planning on vaccuming before I paint the wall a different color.

 

2. It has almost always been a problem when due to bad game design, it is removed from competitive play. Halo CE and even Gears keep the spawning autos in competitive just fine. I don't see a problem with emulating that, especially since one of them started our beloved franchise. I don't entirely agree with something being only for noobs and that is it. I think that is terrible game design if it doesn't at least have a secondary purpose in competitive play.

 

3. I'm not sure that they have to made obnoxious though.

 

4. Ok this is the first actual argument against the proposed functionality itself in practice. Although I am thinking more of a Sentinel Beam/Focus Rifle function, (I suppose that we could just buff that instead) not the stupid Carbine.

 

5. See 2 above.

 

6. Right. I am thoroughly aware of that. Where else do we take the opportunity to propose ideas then?

 

I get what you are saying overall though, I truly do. I'm not trying to be hyper defensive although I do get annoyed when you only seem to quote against me in a thread where a handful of others are also making unrealistic proposals.

 

I'll tell you what. Here is my 'realistic' H5 sandbox fix, you might find that I pretty much agree with you:

 

4sk Magnum, no headshot multipliers for autos, no zoom bonuses for autos except for the zoom itself, AR pretty much copies H4 Turbo, and once again, significantly reduced magnetism and tracking across the board.

 

There, does that make you feel better?

 

Edit: I mean come on, I don't intend to completely change the way Halo is played or anything of that sort. I can be logical too. My imagination gets the best of me quite a bit but I am definitely not ignorant.

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Thoughts on the Grenade Launcher as a Tier 2 weapon with 3 shots?

Better than rail gun. 

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