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Halo 5: Guardians Arena Gameplay Settings Thread

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I find the damage solution to be really odd as well, like Kell. The first shots being accurate should be the reward in itself, I don't know why you'd give bonus damage on top of that.

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I find the damage solution to be really odd as well, like Kell. The first shots being accurate should be the reward in itself, I don't know why you'd give bonus damage on top of that.

Damage bonuses while a player has shields seems so out of character for Halo.

 

 

Only for unshielded opponents, as it is currently. Headshot multipliers worked on shields in Beta and it was a nightmare.

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Only for unshielded opponents, as it is currently. Headshot multipliers worked on shields in Beta and it was a nightmare.

I'm saying it doesn't make sense to give a weapon bonus damage in its initial burst for headshots, shields or not.

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I'm saying it doesn't make sense to give a weapon bonus damage in its initial burst for headshots, shields or not.

Agreed, it's just odd. I'm not the sort to argue realism for game balance, but why would bullets suddenly stop dealing bonus headshot damage? How does a player view that? My are my headshots not dealing headshot damage consistently?

 

It's just not a intuitive system. All unshielded headshots or no unshieldeded headshots, not just some shots. It should be consistent.

 

I would say the removal of headshot damage and having a flat TTK is the best option.

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I mean in an ideal world I'd have the AR basically only have aim assist in melee range and do away with the spread all together.

 

I've always thought it was odd why FPS developers insist on introducing randomness in every gunfight.

 

Removing headshots past a certain level of spread is just a patch for reducing the delta for the randomness (Instead of 3 possibilities: Headshot, Body Shot, and Miss occurring due to spread, now you only have Hit or Miss) without reducing the ability to kill faster by aiming better.

 

I keep trying to pull it back to the original topic of "How do you increase the skill gap of the AR without decreasing the overall effectiveness?"

 

By that premise, removing the headshots would have to be, in some way, accompanied with an equivalent buff. Same thing goes for increases in spread, decreases in aim assist, decreases in base damage, etc. It also has to be a roughly equivalent change across all skill levels according to what was said in the article (nerfing aim assist alone doesn't accomplish this, as ease-of-use nerfs impact lower levels significantly more).

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I find the damage solution to be really odd as well, like Kell. The first shots being accurate should be the reward in itself, I don't know why you'd give bonus damage on top of that.

Accidental plus rep.

 

At close range the accuracy of the first shot isn't a 'reward in itself' because the spread will ensure your bullets will land anyway.

 

With no bonus, An "accurate" shot to the head is no different from an "accurate" shot to the stomach. So folks would just spray at the mid section.

 

The bonus would encourage players to go for a burst shot to the head to finish the kill.

 

I mean in an ideal world I'd have the AR basically only have aim assist in melee range and do away with the spread all together.

 

I've always thought it was odd why FPS developers insist on introducing randomness in every gunfight.

Spread doesn't have to be random.
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Damage bonuses while a player has shields seems so out of character for Halo.

 

If anything i said made it seem like i want that, please disregard!! Shields should take the same amount of damage period regardless of where they are hit.  If they don't do that i dont see the point of having them.  Might as well just have one large health pool.

 

 

Agreed, it's just odd. I'm not the sort to argue realism for game balance, but why would bullets suddenly stop dealing bonus headshot damage? How does a player view that? My are my headshots not dealing headshot damage consistently?

 

It's just not a intuitive system. All unshielded headshots or no unshieldeded headshots, not just some shots. It should be consistent.

 

I would say the removal of headshot damage and having a flat TTK is the best option.

 

Why are some weapons one hit headshot kills once shields are gone and some are just "bonuses"?  Its no more convoluted than that.

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Honestly if you want an Automatic to have spread and require tap-fire or burst-fire, you gotta do it right and the design is actually pretty simple.

 

This auto would have a perfectly accurate 1st shot but then blooms very fast after that, and it would also need to have a lot of bloom as wildly inaccurate as the HCE AR:

 

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/SMARTAN%20427/video/29976350

 

But what is also very important, is that the bloom also resets very fast as well. This is to quickly and clearly reward rapid controlled bursts or Tap-firing semi-auto instead of full auto:

 

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/SMARTAN%20427/video/29980005

 

The first 3 Halo games properly punish going full auto with excess spread/bloom, but do not properly reward burst-fire/tap-fire accuracy.

 

The latest Halo games, especially H5, properly reward burst-fire/tap-fire but do not properly punish going full auto with enough spread/bloom.

 

An ideal solution for this type of automatic weapon is to properly punish going full auto with plenty of spread/bloom, and at the same time properly reward burst-fire/tap-fire with perfectly accurate 1st shots and fast bloom reset rates.

 

This kind of system would behave very similar to the Gears of War 3 Retro Lancer:

 

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/SMARTAN%20427/video/29980274

 

And this is all for just one type of auto. Not all autos need to behave like this. Lack of accuracy does not have to be a defining trait of autos. Only for maybe certain ones.

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Honestly if you want an Automatic to have spread and require tap-fire or burst-fire, you gotta do it right and the design is actually pretty simple.

 

This auto would have a perfectly accurate 1st shot but then blooms very fast after that, and it would also need to have a lot of bloom as wildly inaccurate as the HCE AR:

 

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/SMARTAN%20427/video/29976350

 

 

But what is also very important, is that the bloom also resets very fast as well. This is to quickly and clearly reward rapid controlled bursts or Tap-firing semi-auto instead of full auto:

 

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/SMARTAN%20427/video/29980005

 

The first 3 Halo games properly punish going full auto with excess spread/bloom, but do not properly reward burst-fire/tap-fire accuracy.

 

The latest Halo games, especially H5, properly reward burst-fire/tap-fire but do not properly punish going full auto with enough spread/bloom.

 

An ideal solution for this type of automatic weapon is to properly punish going full auto with plenty of spread/bloom, and at the same time properly reward burst-fire/tap-fire with perfectly accurate 1st shots and fast bloom reset rates.

 

This kind of system would behave very similar to the Gears of War 3 Retro Lancer:

 

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/SMARTAN%20427/video/29980274

 

And this is all for just one type of auto. Not all autos need to behave like this. Lack of accuracy does not have to be a defining trait of autos. Only for maybe certain ones.

Right, but at close range, with a high spread, there's no need for accuracy. So how do you ensure skill can win out?

 

That's what the headshot multiplier is for.

 

But if that multiplier can be earned without the player firing precisely (I.e the 100% accurate burst shot) then there is No reason not to spray and pray

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Right, but at close range, with a high spread, there's no need for accuracy. So how do you ensure skill can win out?

 

That's what the headshot multiplier is for.

 

But if that multiplier can be earned without the player firing precisely (I.e the 100% accurate burst shot) then there is No reason not to spray and pray

I literally do not see the point of putting headshot multipliers on accurate shots, it's so over rewarding. You're rewarded with accuracy, you hit the shot because you tap fired and they missed because they sprayed. Why give headshot damage on top of that. It's so odd to only give headshot damage on certain bloom levels.

 

If you're really that desperate to make sure the better player wins in close quarter than have a good melee system or have a good utility weapon that can challenge autos.

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Honestly if you want an Automatic to have spread and require tap-fire or burst-fire, you gotta do it right and the design is actually pretty simple.

 

This auto would have a perfectly accurate 1st shot but then blooms very fast after that, and it would also need to have a lot of bloom as wildly inaccurate as the HCE AR:

 

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/SMARTAN%20427/video/29976350

 

But what is also very important, is that the bloom also resets very fast as well. This is to quickly and clearly reward rapid controlled bursts or Tap-firing semi-auto instead of full auto:

 

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/SMARTAN%20427/video/29980005

 

The first 3 Halo games properly punish going full auto with excess spread/bloom, but do not properly reward burst-fire/tap-fire accuracy.

 

The latest Halo games, especially H5, properly reward burst-fire/tap-fire but do not properly punish going full auto with enough spread/bloom.

 

An ideal solution for this type of automatic weapon is to properly punish going full auto with plenty of spread/bloom, and at the same time properly reward burst-fire/tap-fire with perfectly accurate 1st shots and fast bloom reset rates.

 

This kind of system would behave very similar to the Gears of War 3 Retro Lancer:

 

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/SMARTAN%20427/video/29980274

 

And this is all for just one type of auto. Not all autos need to behave like this. Lack of accuracy does not have to be a defining trait of autos. Only for maybe certain ones.

 

So, you want it to overlap with precision weapons... why? What purpose does this serve? It just makes it another spam-friendly precision weapon like the carbine at best and introduces even more balance problems without adding anything at all meaningful to the sandbox other than... an automatic weapon that sort of "rewards accuracy" if you use it like a precision weapon? Why not just use the precision weapon at that point? Would the "tap fire AR" have comparable damage output at range as well? Then you have even more overlap, for no particular reason. The whole point of the utility weapon + niche weapon sandbox is that most of the weapons on-map (power weapons aside) have fairly limited areas of extreme effectiveness. I would much rather have CE style utility make a return than invest more effort trying to justify head shot bonuses for bullet hose tap-fire for some reason.

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I literally do not see the point of putting headshot multipliers on accurate shots, it's so over rewarding. You're rewarded with accuracy, you hit the shot because you tap fired and they missed because they sprayed. Why give headshot damage on top of that. It's so odd to only give headshot damage on certain bloom levels.

 

If you're really that desperate to make sure the better player wins in close quarter than have a good melee system or have a good utility weapon that can challenge autos.

This is the part you are misunderstanding.

 

At close range, the AR user ISNT missing due to spraying. The spread is actually INCREASING the likelihood that shots will land. The precision of burst-firing isn't a reward here- it's making it harder to land shots, and decreases the rate at which you cause damage.

 

Edit: nevermind this convoluted example in the spoiler tags, see the post below.

 

Think of the how shotgun Spread allows you to land shots upclose, even if your aim is off. now instead of the your bullets coming in one blast, they come 1by1- that's your AR. The spread is actually beneficial - it nullifies the reward that would come typically come with being accurate.

 

The headshot multiplayer allows a player with good aim a chance to take out a player who is taking advantage of the spread by simply spraying the midsection.

 

Without the multiplier, an accurate shot to the head is no more rewarding than just spraying full auto at the midsection. In fact, burst firing at close range with precise shots would be straight up disadvantageous, because you're having to aim better AND are dealing less damage per second.

 

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To better explain it:

 

Due to spread, when fighting at close range, its more advantageous to go for this via full-auto shots to the body:

 

ml64y31.jpg

 

Than to go for this via bursts:

 

sPvdC16.jpg

 

Both do the exact same amount of damage. But the first requires less precise aim, AND deals damage faster.

 

The second option is harder and provides no benefit for your troubles.

 

A headshot modifier for bursts provides an incentive players to go for the second option for the killshot by rewarding their skilled aim with a lower ttk.

 

Limiting the bonus to the first shots in a burst ensures than those going full auto dont get the low ttk via luck.

 

Edit: Different firing modes doing different damage isnt some completely foreign idea. The LR for example does more damage scoped in.

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So, you want it to overlap with precision weapons... why? What purpose does this serve? It just makes it another spam-friendly precision weapon like the carbine at best and introduces even more balance problems without adding anything at all meaningful to the sandbox other than... an automatic weapon that sort of "rewards accuracy" if you use it like a precision weapon? Why not just use the precision weapon at that point? Would the "tap fire AR" have comparable damage output at range as well? Then you have even more overlap, for no particular reason. The whole point of the utility weapon + niche weapon sandbox is that most of the weapons on-map (power weapons aside) have fairly limited areas of extreme effectiveness. I would much rather have CE style utility make a return than invest more effort trying to justify head shot bonuses for bullet hose tap-fire for some reason.

You always act like I want the the most redundant sandbox possible, but I don't.

 

In one of @@Hard Way 's CE basics guides where he discusses the weapon sandbox he says to 'pump the trigger for more accurate shots' in regards to the CE AR being able clean up kills sometimes.

 

I laughed at that part of the video because of how uselessly inaccurate and unreliable the weapon still was even when burst firing.

 

I didn't say anything about headshot multipliers in this particular case, even though it is an interesting idea that the others are suggesting.

 

All I am proposing is that in the context of the CE sandbox where the AR already has a noticeably slower killtime than the Magnum,I would be making the weapon more reliable in those niche situations where you are 'stuck with it'.

 

It is one of the few subtle improvements I would make to the CE sandbox overall and I don't see a single reason why it would be a bad thing because it would certainly not cause any of this 'overlap' you speak of.

 

(^Which BTW, overlap already exists in the form of the Sniper Rifle, but it is not a problem in CE since it is actually appropriately difficult in that game with the Magnum also being appropriately strong enough to keep it in check).

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To better explain it:

 

Due to spread, when fighting at close range, its more advantageous to go for this via full-auto shots to the body:

 

ml64y31.jpg

 

Than to go for this via bursts:

 

sPvdC16.jpg

 

Both do the exact same amount of damage. But the first requires less precise aim, AND deals damage faster.

 

The second option is harder and provides no benefit for your troubles.

 

A headshot modifier for bursts provides an incentive players to go for the second option for the killshot by rewarding their skilled aim with a lower ttk.

 

Limiting the bonus to the first shots in a burst ensures than those going full auto dont get the low ttk via luck.

 

Edit: Different firing modes doing different damage isnt some completely foreign idea. The LR for example does more damage scoped in.

I get your point, and it is definitely an interesting idea, and I am not entirely disagreeing with either. But I have a few points:

 

#1: Isn't the point of this type of automatic weapon to be most effective and easiest to use in close range?

 

#2: A proper utility weapon would already have a faster potential killtime like in CE, so the full auto killtime wouldn't be an issue.

 

#3: I'm not sure that the difference in firing modes would be as clear, then again I was just suggesting that the difference in accuracy and efficiency be finally made very clear for once so nevermind this one.

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I get your point, and it is definitely an interesting idea, and I am not entirely disagreeing with either. But I have a few points:

 

#1: Isn't the point of this type of automatic weapon to be most effective and easiest to use in close range?

 

#2: A proper utility weapon would already have a faster potential killtime like in CE, so the full auto killtime wouldn't be an issue.

 

#3: I'm not sure that the difference in firing modes would be as clear, then again I was just suggesting that the difference in accuracy and efficiency be finally made very clear for once so nevermind this one.

First, we should be clear- 343 wants to tweak and reincorporate the AR as starting weapon with a skill gap, and without simply nerfing it. So we are trying to come up with ways they could do this.

 

#1 the automatic IS still easiest and most effective at close range. These suggested tweaks don't change that. But there is currently no mechanism to allow a skill gap to emerge. That's the intent of the burst fire headshot modifier

 

#2 it's not just about AR v magnum. what about AR v AR, or AR v any other weapon? The magnum should have a shorter TTK than the AR no one disputes that. But the issues are that the ARs power is too great for its low difficulty. Rather than reduce its power, We are looking to increase the average kill time, w/o greatly altering the min kill time so that it can too become a weapon that rewards skill.

 

#3 just requires a good reticle. It wouldn't take long before it became common knowledge .

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The real question we have to ask is; What will 343 do to retool the AR? For all we know, they might not do anything significant to the AR at all. I mean, they just half-assed, albeit still welcome, nerfed the Sniper Rifles bullet mag. For all we know, their retooling will leave us back at square one, or even worse off. Just saying it's a possibility.

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The real question we have to ask is; What will 343 do to retool the AR? For all we know, they might not do anything significant to the AR at all. I mean, they just half-assed, albeit still welcome, nerfed the Sniper Rifles bullet mag. For all we know, their retooling will leave us back at square one, or even worse off. Just saying it's a possibility.

That's why we are talking about it. It's a long shot perhaps, but Hopefully @@Neighbor and crew sees something here worth bringing back to the team. It appears that they recognize that the lack of skill gap is a problem for AR and the other autos they had on the maps.

 

So, if anyone from 343 is here:

 

1) greatly reduce AR magnetism

2) reduce AR aim assist at (the spread already provides enough 'assistance' at close range, the gun is too easy at range)

3) increase spread rate (to encourage bursting-firing for effectiveness at range, increasing avg TTK at range while still rewarding skill)

4) provide headshot bonus only for first shots in a burst (to reward aim skill over full auto spray)

 

These changes would improve the AR v magnum imbalances and provide a skill gap for AR users, without affecting how powerful it is. Low level players wouldn't notice much difference, but higher level players would be allowed to showcase there talent.

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Why not remove spread entirely?

 

Here's what i think would make a good AR:

 

- Reduce the rate of fire and increase damage to compensate.

- Remove spread but add in predicable and somewhat controllable recoil.

- Reduce the magnetism to be similar to precision weapons.

- Make the reticule reset quite quickly when tap firing (as in if you only fire one or two bullets the reticule will jump up but quickly drop back to exactly where you were aiming when you pulled the trigger).

 

This would make it viable and skillful at all ranges. At close range you can use it at full auto if you can control the recoil properly. At mid range you'd have to burst fire and control the recoil. At long range you'd have to pace your shots and it'd work essentially like a precision weapon.

 

 

Also recoil makes weapons way more satisfying to shoot. It's far more visceral watching the gun properly jump up in your hands than watching it vibrates slightly and the reticule artificially increase in size.

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Why not remove spread entirely?

 

Here's what i think would make a good AR:

 

- Reduce the rate of fire and increase damage to compensate.

- Remove spread but add in predicable and somewhat controllable recoil.

- Reduce the magnetism to be similar to precision weapons.

- Make the reticule reset quite quickly when tap firing (as in if you only fire one or two bullets the reticule will jump up but quickly drop back to exactly where you were aiming when you pulled the trigger).

 

This would make it viable and skillful at all ranges. At close range you can use it at full auto if you can control the recoil properly. At mid range you'd have to burst fire and control the recoil. At long range you'd have to pace your shots and it'd work essentially like a precision weapon.

 

 

Also recoil makes weapons way more satisfying to shoot. It's far more visceral watching the gun properly jump up in your hands than watching it vibrates slightly and the reticule artificially increase in size.

Sounds outside of the scope of anything they'd do for THIS game.

 

Not a bad idea though. Except controlling a meaningful recoil sounds impossible on w/ a controller in a game with such high ttks

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That's why we are talking about it. It's a long shot perhaps, but Hopefully @@Neighbor and crew sees something here worth bringing back to the team. It appears that they recognize that the lack of skill gap is a problem for AR and the other autos they had on the maps.

 

So, if anyone from 343 is here:

 

1) greatly reduce AR magnetism

2) reduce AR aim assist at (the spread already provides enough 'assistance' at close range, the gun is too easy at range)

3) increase spread rate (to encourage bursting-firing for effectiveness at range, increasing avg TTK at range while still rewarding skill)

4) provide headshot bonus only for first shots in a burst (to reward aim skill over full auto spray)

 

These changes would improve the AR v magnum imbalances and provide a skill gap for AR users, without affecting how powerful it is. Low level players wouldn't notice much difference, but higher level players would be allowed to showcase there talent.

Let me rephrase the question; Based on our current knowledge of 343's design practices, what is the most likely route 343 will take to address the AR in an enclosed, lack of suggestion, environment?
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This is pretty radical idea, but hear me out. It's something I've toyed with for a while.

 

The AR becomes a precision weapon. 11 shots to break shields, 1 hit headshot, 5 body shots. 1.2 TTK perfect, 1.65 Body shots. (TBD)

 

The weapon has a fair vertical climb but bursting will reduce this drastically.

 

The high RoF fully automatic nature means it maintain its CQC advantage, as it is less punishing to miss shots. But the weapon now has a higher skill gap, needing a final head shots for a faster kill. The vertical climb limits it's new found lack of bloom in a non random, controllable way.

 

A few further benefits:

 

Better Plasma vs Bullet distinction. With the AR needing far more shots to drop shields than the past, Plasma can now drop shields faster, without them being blatantly annoying in CQC (namely the BPR 2 shot beatdown, 3 shots to drop shields nonsense)

 

CQC AR vs pistol is no longer a rock/paper/scissors match.

 

Better distinction between other automatics AND precision weapons, it bridges the gap.

 

I think it's certainly worth a shot. It makes the weapon much more skillful, but still allows it to maintain an advantage im CQC, but not an overwhelming one.

 

Thought? Tweaks?

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Solo queued HCS and I've never raged so hard... somehow I never EVER get solid teammates in that playlist.

 

Run into the same guys, 4 games in a row, and they rag on you the whole time for how bad they wrecked you and it's like bro... I. HAVE. NO. TEAM.

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Regardless of how well 343 optimizes the AR for competitive play it will always be frustrating to die by the weapon in a close range encounter as long as Halo 5's magnum is an inadequate utility weapon and Halo 5's melee mechanics are atrocious. Like @@MultiLockOn pointed out earlier the best way to ensure that the majority of close range encounters are won by skill is to make Halo 5's melee mechanics more skillful and to buff Halo 5's magnum so it can become a more adequate utility weapon. After we ensure that Halo 5's melee mechanics are more skillful and that Halo 5's magnum is a more adequate utility weapon then we should prioritize optimizing the AR and the rest of the weapon sandbox for competitive play.

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