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Halo 5: Guardians Arena Gameplay Settings Thread

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I'll briefly throw out my thoughts since I think both sides of the argument are being illustrated fairly well.

The Assault Rifle lowest damage output and is in the middle of the three for ease of use, but you don't have to obtain it, therefore it's not balanced.

 

The Storm Rifle has insane damage output and is arguably the easiest to use (although one could argue that Projectile > Spread in terms of difficulty), and has inconsistent obtainability (on a map like Rig, its in an unfavorable position – balanced; On a map like Riptide/Empire, there are two of them in favorable positions – not balanced)

 

The SMG has a difficult usability due to spread and ranged recoil, mid-tier damage output, and is also mid-tier in obtainability.

 

 

 

Halo 5's problem primarily lies in placement of automatics, quantity of automatics, as well as other factors such as map design and Radar.

 

I disagree with your assessment of the SMG -- I'm pretty sure its damage output is actually higher than the Storm Rifle due to its higher ROF, and it's easier to use with tap/burst-firing at range than the projectile Storm Rifle (unless you're able to stay scoped in with Storm.)  If there's numbers to back up your statement, I'll concede, but I think you're actually undervaluing it.  It's super strong, too.

 

But you're 100% right in saying "Automatics take no skill" is a useless statement in terms of making progress.  They definitely take less manual dexterity to wield than precision weapons, but that is by design.  They reward proper valuation of "When can I win this gun battle with my precision weapon" versus "When should I just bullet hose them down?" -- however, in their current state, the automatics kill TOO FAST for that decision point to have proper weight.  They're also extremely prevalent on the map, due to the amount of them and their short respawn timers.

 

Motion Tracker exacerbates the issue, and the number of 90 degree angles in level design drives that even further.  (90 degree angles promote corner-camping, because it's wider than a player's FoV, leaving there to be a good chance to catch someone off guard by waiting.)

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I'll briefly throw out my thoughts since I think both sides of the argument are being illustrated fairly well.

 

The purpose for autos in my opinion is to provide an earned advantage for close quarters combat by increasing DPS and ease of use. The argument shouldn't be that "these weapons don't take skill" because one could argue that an SMG takes a ton more skill than Rockets, or Shotgun, or Sword. It's a stigma circle jerk that doesn't have any objectivity to it, and this is amplified by the way Automatics are handled/balanced in Halo 5.

 

I think the balance of autos solely relies on those three factors (not including gunfight variability, radar, or map design/flow):

 

  • How difficult is it to obtain them
  • How forgiving is the ease of use
  • How much damage is outputted
The Assault Rifle has the lowest damage output and is in the middle of the three for ease of use, but you don't have to obtain it, therefore it's not balanced.

 

The Storm Rifle has insane damage output and is arguably the easiest to use (although one could argue against this because the Storm Rifle has a lot of variables... random spread, projectiles, fast overheat, etc.), and has inconsistent obtainability (on a map like Rig, its in an unfavorable position – balanced; On a map like Riptide/Empire, there are two of them in favorable positions – not balanced)

 

The SMG has a difficult usability due to spread and ranged recoil, mid-tier damage output, and is also mid-tier in obtainability.

 

It's for these reasons that I don't mind the Storm Rifle on maps like Plaza or Rig because it provides a situational advantage at the cost of extreme sacrifices of map control. However, they are completely gamebreakinig on Empire and Riptide. The SMG on a map like Fathom or Coliseum provides defensive utility and aggression but can still be bested if caught of guard at range (the SMG's new placement also helps this flow). The Assault Rifle needs a nerf because you spawn with it, simple as that.

 

The point is that the argument that "Autos take no skill" is the reason why none of you will ever make any progress towards their balance or removal, because that isn't what the issue is. Tons of weapons throughout all of Halo's history have had varying degrees of easiness, even in Halo 1, but they were balanced around situational viability, obtainability, and strength.

 

Halo 5's problem primarily lies in placement of automatics, quantity of automatics, as well as other factors such as map design and Radar.

 

Edit: I also have a very in-depth argument that says Tier 1 timers shouldn't exist (everything Tier 2 or Tier 3), and this would heavily nerf automatics – particularly the Storm Rifle.

 

Edit 2: Fuck man this post is actually fire and no one in the HCS Thread is going to see it :flip:

Most people don't care as much about autos on the map. It's mainly about spawning with one which is addressed in "how difficult it is to obtain them"

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I'd be inclined to ask you what weapons you think in past Halos were like this. More so CE. Utterly curious. Mainly because I personally can't say I know another weapon in any other Halo that's as powerful as the Halo 5 Storm Rifle is to other weapons in its respective sandbox, utility included.

 

 

Rocket Launcher, Sword, Shotgun, Scattershot, hell even the H2/H5 Sniper can be argued in terms of damage vs. ease of use but that is an entirely different case of situational aiming.

 

The Rocket Launcher is a significant amount easier to use compared to an automatic weapon, but is balanced via map placement, tradeoffs, strength, and viability. Every weapon in Halo is intended to be balanced around those factors and my argument is that the automatics' role in Halo 5 need to be tuned to align with those principles.

 

Also, accidental neg.

 

I disagree with your assessment of the SMG -- I'm pretty sure its damage output is actually higher than the Storm Rifle due to its higher ROF, and it's easier to use with tap/burst-firing at range than the projectile Storm Rifle (unless you're able to stay scoped in with Storm.)  If there's numbers to back up your statement, I'll concede, but I think you're actually undervaluing it.  It's super strong, too.

 

But you're 100% right in saying "Automatics take no skill" is a useless statement in terms of making progress.  They definitely take less manual dexterity to wield than precision weapons, but that is by design.  They reward proper valuation of "When can I win this gun battle with my precision weapon" versus "When should I just bullet hose them down?" -- however, in their current state, the automatics kill TOO FAST for that decision point to have proper weight.  They're also extremely prevalent on the map, due to the amount of them and their short respawn timers.

 

Motion Tracker exacerbates the issue, and the number of 90 degree angles in level design drives that even further.  (90 degree angles promote corner-camping, because it's wider than a player's FoV, leaving there to be a good chance to catch someone off guard by waiting.)

 

 

Yeah there is a decent amount of discussion to be had regarding all of those variables, I just spitballed for the most part but a lot of it is vacuum vs. non vacuum so had to make a few assumptions, but I think we're on the same page.

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Rocket Launcher, Sword, Shotgun, Scattershot, hell even the H2/H5 Sniper can be argued in terms of damage vs. ease of use but that is an entirely different case of situational aiming.

Dokay. Although, on this topic, you glazed over the Suppressor entirely. Dunno if that was because you forgot about it, or just thought it was fine as is.

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Dokay. Although, on this topic, you glazed over the Suppressor entirely. Dunno if that was because you forgot about it, or just thought it was fine as is.

 

 

Suppressor is underpowered (although it does have some extremely sick niche opportunities, so I kinda dig it) but is also more unique than any of the other automatics due to the contrast in range, slow projectiles, and tracking.

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Suppressor is underpowered (although it does have some extremely sick niche opportunities, so I kinda dig it) but is also more unique than any of the other automatics due to the contrast in range, slow projectiles, and tracking.

Oh, entirely. Was just curious. Totally think it should stay as is, as it's probably my favorite, due to its unique properties and tuning.

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Suppressor is underpowered (although it does have some extremely sick niche opportunities, so I kinda dig it) but is also more unique than any of the other automatics due to the contrast in range, slow projectiles, and tracking.

Underpowered?

 

Its like the only auto that I think works well as it is lol

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Underpowered?

 

Its like the only auto that I think works well as it is lol

 

 

I think it requires the most mental skill and situational awareness (warming up the RoF), but the window for opportunity is very, very tight. I think it's fine as is but would also be fine with the smallest (smallest) of buffs.

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Newest Truth Refresh:

 

  • BRs Replaced w/ 2 Frags
  • Storm Rifles moved to Red 1/Blue 1 Door
  • P2 Carbine replaced w/ BR
  • Plasma Caster replaced w/ Fuel Rod Cannon
  • Hydra Bottom Mid
  • 2 Splinters Top Mid

 

I think Fuel Rod might be a bit too claustrophobic and I don't think the Storm Rifles even need to be there since SMGs are still on the map but I dig the BR Changes.

 

Tagging @@Deez in prayers for a lurk because this is so close to being a great refresh

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So has no radar been even teased about by the devs? weapon tweaking? hitmarkers on nades?

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The sentinel beam is not even close to an auto.

 

Btw I miss it too, cool way of putting a lighting gun in Halo

It was exactly an auto. You held down the trigger and it dealt continuous damage.

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It was exactly an auto. You held down the trigger and it dealt continuous damage.

 

 

By definition yeah but there was no spread so it was as 'precision' as an automatic can get.

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It was exactly an auto. You held down the trigger and it dealt continuous damage.

It was a "continuous".

 

Halo needs more continuous weapons.

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It was a "continuous".

 

Halo needs more continuous weapons.

 

Warframe had a lot of different/unique guns (including continuous ones) when I played a couple years ago. Don't know if they'd fit into Halo however.

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So has no radar been even teased about by the devs? weapon tweaking? hitmarkers on nades?

No.

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It was a "continuous".

 

Halo needs more continuous weapons.

 

Beta Reach Focus Rifle is my favorite weapon in the Halo series thus far.

 

But I think the Reach GL is the best designed weapon we've had in Halo so far.  Projectile weapons > Continuous, imo.  (As long as that projectile isn't tied into random spread and awful netcode...coughH3BRcough).

 

ReachGL gave us a weapon that 1) Had two modes of fire, both of which had their uses.  2) Took reading a player's movements and predicting their direction to wield at its maximum potential. and 3) Was also balanced for the BTB crowd, as its cooked variant featured an EMP so it was a "soft" anti-vehicle weapon.  It was a fantastic utility mid-tier power weapon that didn't dominate anywhere but was good everywhere.  More weapons' designs should strive to be like the ReachGL.

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I am really hoping that they implement the radar that only shows players that are using spartan abilities/sprinting. I think this would be a huge improvement over what we have now. 

 

I think I remember hearing that 343 has been testing this, but I don't remember what the source was. 

When quinn was posting in a twitch chat the other day, he said they tried every variation of the radar and the current one is what they claimed played the best.  I assume he was only referring to prelaunch, so I have no idea if they have revisited those versions of radar.    

 

He never responded to the question of whether or not they had considered not having radar.  When someone said that radar shrinks the skill gap, quinn stated "radar is plenty skillful."  

 

But he also said binary rifles take skill and those were already removed so who knows what the hell is going on to be honest.  

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https://www.twitch.tv/naded/v/60883417

 

This is a great video where Naded talks about H5 and its setting for a good amount of time. He seems to agree with what people here are constantly saying. He also calls out 343 for not listening. 

 

Rant starts at 2:25:10

 

Thanks @@NavG123 for finding this. 

I really respect naded for voicing his opinion like that.  Everything he talks about is what has killed the game for me.  Haven't enjoyed it in months and I usually just sit there staring at the playlists having no desire to play any of them and then I just dashboard and go to mcc.  

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I disagree with your assessment of the SMG -- I'm pretty sure its damage output is actually higher than the Storm Rifle due to its higher ROF, and it's easier to use with tap/burst-firing at range than the projectile Storm Rifle (unless you're able to stay scoped in with Storm.)  If there's numbers to back up your statement, I'll concede, but I think you're actually undervaluing it.  It's super strong, too.

 

 

I knew something was off when I read this and shrugged it off at first, but then I remembered. The Storm Rifle's ability to melt shields into an instant melee is what lets it trump the SMG in terms of what I referred to as damage.

 

But yeah I do believe the SMG has an actual faster TTK

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The Storm Rifle's ability to melt shields into an instant melee is what lets it trump the SMG in terms of what I referred to as damage.

 

Ahhh, okay.  Makes sense, then.

 

That becomes very dependent upon thrust-usage, generally speaking.  Which at least means there's notable counterplay involved.  Little bit of a game of chicken.

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easy to use, long kill times

 

hard to use, fast kill times

 

that's all it takes to balance weapons

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Yeah but in Halo it isn't because you wouldn't apply that standard to power weapons. 'ease of use' must be complicated by the 'ease of availability' factor. 

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Audley, you were questioning before in the hcs thread why people would say they want to play competitive halo and then strip it down to "not be halo". You mentioned that it would be scrub-like for us to strip the game down to fit our idea of how it should be played. As I recall, halo 2 in the beginning was primarily smg starts. Do you think that pro matches should have had everyone start with smgs only and scramble to find the limited brs on the map?

 

If 343 in their wisdom decides that halo 6 needs to be more forgiving for "positional players" and makes everyone spawn with plasma pistols only and puts a total of 2 precision weapons on the map, would you say, "well, that's competitive halo now. If we change that gameplay to 'suit our strengths' we would just be scrubs."?

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I knew something was off when I read this and shrugged it off at first, but then I remembered. The Storm Rifle's ability to melt shields into an instant melee is what lets it trump the SMG in terms of what I referred to as damage.

 

But yeah I do believe the SMG has an actual faster TTK

I think the smg has better range, I don't know is easier for me to kill at range with the smg than the stormrifle.

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