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BigShow36

Why Kill Times Matter

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Great post.

 

Fingers crossed that the CE pistol in the next update (I hope) is projectile and takes skill to use.

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Great post.

 

Fingers crossed that the CE pistol in the next update (I hope) is projectile and takes skill to use.

 

I think Halo 5 would play significantly better even if the regular pistol was moved to a 4 shot kill and some of the other issues were cleaned up.

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The biggest problem are "abilities". Halo cannot and will not ever work as long as armor abilities/Spartan abilities or any other game breaking movement gimmicks are included. Halo's sales and population will continue to nose dive as long as game breaking gimmicks are involved. Having a shield is the defensive mechanism. Anything added to that breaks the game. The only way Halo will ever regain popularity is if they go back to the original formula. Maps should be properly sized and for traversing the maps, bring back portals, man cannons, lifts, and have a fairly quick base movement.

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The biggest problem are "abilities". Halo cannot and will not ever work as long as armor abilities/Spartan abilities or any other game breaking movement gimmicks are included. Halo's sales and population will continue to nose dive as long as game breaking gimmicks are involved. Having a shield is the defensive mechanism. Anything added to that breaks the game. The only way Halo will ever regain popularity is if they go back to the original formula. Maps should be properly sized and for traversing the maps, bring back portals, man cannons, lifts, and have a fairly quick base movement.

 

I think a lot of the negative impacts of abilities would be negated with a faster kill time. I'm not just saying that because of the thread, but I don't see the abilities (at least the movement ones) as having as large of an impact as people perceive.

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Cool post.  How would you create a significant gap between minimum and average kill time?

Make the guns require more skill. Make the pistol a 4sk and lower the bullet magnetism and you would have a much more skill based gun with better perfect kill times and average kill times.

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Cool post.  How would you create a significant gap between minimum and average kill time?

 

I think the abilities of most modern console gamers is vastly underestimated and I think the aim assists are way too high on modern shooters. A fast strafe, a weapon that shoots straight and consistent with a faster TTK are the basic requirements. It's okay if players miss shots regularly; it's a necessary component of a deep game. If you get those basics down and make the game feel good, everything else will fall into place.

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I think a lot of the negative impacts of abilities would be negated with a faster kill time. I'm not just saying that because of the thread, but I don't see the abilities (at least the movement ones) as having as large of an impact as people perceive.

"Abilities" are too overwhelming, stressful, rage inducing, and make the game random and chaotic. Spartan charge alone is enough to keep me from playing Halo 5 ever again. You could have the perfect weapon balance and they would still absolutely ruin the game for me & many, many others. 

 

I do fully agree with you though that there needs to be a skill gap with shooting. Although many people here hate the H3 BR, I loved it because of it's projectile shooting. Having that kind of depth to an utility weapon makes it more satisfying to use and of course adds a skill gap. I'm using that as an example because I have hardly touched Halo CE.

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Assuming the CE Pistol in H5 ends up functioning exactly like, or very close to, the OG (very, very slim chance of that imo), would there be any real reason for 343 to not make it the starting utility for Arena/HCS and just make sandbox tweaks around that if they wanted the most competitive game possible?

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Assuming the CE Pistol in H5 ends up functioning exactly like, or very close to, the OG (very, very slim chance of that imo), would there be any real reason for 343 to not make it the starting utility for Arena/HCS and just make sandbox tweaks around that if they wanted the most competitive game possible?

I don't think 343 wants a utility weapon at all..

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Their ego.

Not ego, just ignorance.

 

Its the same reason people think a longer TTK means you can fight back. They have the right idea but have NOT thought it through

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Not ego, just ignorance.

 

Its the same reason people think a longer TTK means you can fight back. They have the right idea but have NOT thought it through

 

xcuse me killmushine r u aware that 343 constntly browses TeamBeaned and takez stock of are ideas their listning ok?

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Assuming the CE Pistol in H5 ends up functioning exactly like, or very close to, the OG (very, very slim chance of that imo), would there be any real reason for 343 to not make it the starting utility for Arena/HCS and just make sandbox tweaks around that if they wanted the most competitive game possible?

As Lemon said, they would essentially need to retool their entire sandbox. It would vastly improve the game, but it wont happen. I think the competitive community should experiment with the settings more and use damage and health modifiers to increase the kill-speed on the pistol without doing the same on the autos. I think secret schnitzel did something like this already, and I'd be curious to see how it plays. You would need to strip out all of the other precision weapons for balance, but it would be interesting to see.

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Great post. I completely agree with all of it..

 

Besides Halo CE, what console shooters had a big gap between minimum time to kill and average time to kill? I wish other games went as in depth as Halo CE fans had, but I think most of my favorite shooters have a healthy relationship between the two.

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xcuse me killmushine r u aware that 343 constntly browses TeamBeaned and takez stock of are ideas their listning ok?

Y r u so negativ all the tim ur arguments suk unless u r happy sunshin not sour lemon

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Great post. I completely agree with all of it..

 

Besides Halo CE, what console shooters had a big gap between minimum time to kill and average time to kill? I wish other games went as in depth as Halo CE fans had, but I think most of my favorite shooters have a healthy relationship between the two.

 

None that I can think of (except maybe Nexuiz). Once I stopped playing Halo 2, I basically moved to CoD for a long time. I think the reason for that was I had a fun group to play with but also the fact that I could go huge as an individual. I could tear through a room even if my team was bad. I don't think it was terribly competitive or skillful for a lot of reasons, but just the fact that I could do that kept me playing.

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Assuming 100% accuracy, the single Blue Player is 2 shots up on 1 of the 2 Red opponents, who are now both aware of his presence. Assuming perfect aim, the absolute best the Blue Player can do is slay 1 of the opponents at the exact same time he himself dies (it takes the single player 5 “shot windows” to slay the 1 Player, and only 3 “shot windows” for the 2 players to slay a single player, as they fire 2 rounds per shot window).

 

In order for the single player to successfully slay two players, the two players would need to miss 6 shots out of the 11 opportunities between the two of them, and the single player would need to land every single shot. Put another way, in order to be successful the two Red players only need 45% accuracy while the single Blue player needs to have 100% accuracy. Regardless of how clever, strategic, or intelligent the Blue player’s engagement was, those are poor odds and a poor recompense for what should be a rewarding decision. Add in the fact that modern Halo games are incredibly easy to land shots in (the average kill time is very close to the minimum TTK), and the likelihood of a single player winning against two players is negligible to the point that above average teams eliminate it from any strategic decisions.

 

throw a nade ez double kill you scrub

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To anyone who wants to see an example of fast kill times working (aside from CE), here's another game that has a ~0.5 second minimum kill time (incidentally a 3 head shot kill) where the game revolves around one utility weapon - a very low spread automatic with 30 bullets in the clip.

Each *dink* hitsound you hear signifies a headshot -- three required to kill a full health opponent. The game runs on the Quake engine and has fast movement and instant strafe / crouch which mitigates the who-sees-who-first factor.

 

Skim through to watch how a single skilled player can rack up on multikills with his utility weapon alone. (action starts at 1m20s)

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Didn't Chaostheory do a very similar write-up regarding kill times a few years back?

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@@BigShow36 amazing analysis. i find it ironic that you did this for free, and not sure how many manhours it took you but damn, 343 should hire you simply thinking outside the box.

 

 

edit, Shadowrun had fast kill times in my opinion.

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Great post.

 

Fingers crossed that the CE pistol in the next update (I hope) is projectile and takes skill to use.

Projectile weapons are kinda meh in practice in online play. There's nothing unskillful about hitscan weapons. If a hitscan weapon for example had 0 aim assist, 0 magnetism, 0 spread and the hitboxes were decent, it's a perfectly legitimate weapon that would entirely revolve around player skill.

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None that I can think of (except maybe Nexuiz). Once I stopped playing Halo 2, I basically moved to CoD for a long time. I think the reason for that was I had a fun group to play with but also the fact that I could go huge as an individual. I could tear through a room even if my team was bad. I don't think it was terribly competitive or skillful for a lot of reasons, but just the fact that I could do that kept me playing.

 

R.I.P Nexuiz. I know how you feel though. It's for sure a reason why I didn't like a lot of the later Halo series. When Reach had dropped, I switched to a really weird game called Monday Night Combat. Theres a "medal" you can earn called "All Time Great" which is 6 multi-kills or wiping out the entire team. The fact that a single player is capable of this is such a huge deal to me.

 

Tons of developer issues aside, they made a sequel called Super Monday Night Combat. The kill times went from being skillfully quick, to paaaaaaaaainfully slow. It required chain like grapples and the entire team to concentrate fire to take a player down in roughly the same time as the original.

 

Halo CE, MNC, Murder Miners, Shadowrun, Quake, Nexuiz and a few other arena shooters fit the mold here.

 

@@BigShow36 amazing analysis. i find it ironic that you did this for free, and not sure how many manhours it took you but damn, 343 should hire you simply thinking outside the box.

 

 

edit, Shadowrun had fast kill times in my opinion.

 

Do you have any info on weapon times? 

 

I've been looking for information about this. I couldn't find it in any guides, but I don't have the prima guide as well. I know about damages but I'm not really able to tell what the time to kill is. Hell, I can't even find any decent clips of a player 2 shotting an elf or 3 shotting a human. The rifle feels similar to H1 pistol in terms of fire rate. We're dealing with milliseconds here so it's hard tell.

 

Whether it's slightly faster or slightly longer, the perfect kill time for an elf has to be incredibly close to Halo CE's .6 seconds. I've thought it was even faster at .4 seconds with nothing to base my claims on.

 

@@BigShow36 - I'm not sure if you've ever really seen the game or understand it a whole bunch cause it is incredibly deep and theres a lot to know. 2 shotting an elf gives a very similar feeling to out-shooting an OS player perfectly. Completely different situations, but the head hit boxes are so small in this game, and every bullet has headshot damage multiplier as well as limb shots that deal less damage than standard body shots.

 

I'd say it's got the biggest perfect kill time to average kill time difference on the rifles/pistols. SMGs/Shotty doesn't matter, although it is possible to one-shot an elf wth a shotty headshot.

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