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Halo 4 and Sprint

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So admittedly, I haven't played much Halo 4 over the past few weeks, if not months. But with the $500k FFA out, I felt inclined to pick it up again, thinking that the necessary developer support was coming. Today marks my second day playing in probably a solid three weeks, and I still cannot stand to play for more than a few hours before calling it quits. While this problem is not based entirely on sprint, I believe sprint is the root of all of complaints since, surprisingly, the matches I played were fairly close games. My previous complaint was matchmaking but I'm running into people dropping -20 bombs about as frequently as I was in Halo 3, so I'm willing to let that slide.

 

But for me, sprint ruins - not worsens, but flat out ruins - Halo 4 for me for two reasons: game pace, and map design.

 

 

 

The first is the most obvious. Every 4v4 game I play outside of Throwdown and Doubles is just a massive clusterfuck with people sprinting in all sorts of directions. I'm standing there on Daybreak in Infinity Slayer (which, why the fuck is it even in that playlist!?) and literally watching as people on both teams are just sprinting from this side to that side, chasing people across the map simply because they can. The game lacks pace and discipline (in b4 Asian dad meme) and, while you might think this rapid and chaotic gameplay is more exciting, for me it's not. It's dull, random, and sloppy. The concept of holding a setup has been completely thrown out the window and Halo is the only competitive title to do this. Hell, even CoD teams use setups. Power positions have been banished from existence because now players can be on top of you in seconds and there is nothing you can do.This is simply not fun. Even maps like Onslaught and Amplified that were considered very chaotic and fast-paced maps featured power positions and setups.

 

The second issue is map design. Almost all of the disc maps feel like a cluttered mess because they were designed to work with sprint, and that's the sort of map design sprint demands from Halo 4 - open spaces, no tight corners, random clutter to hide behind to negate stopping power. So what do you for smaller, arena maps? You're left with designs that are uninspired and, at their core, all relatively the same. Why? Because they're all that works. You're also shooting yourself in the foot if you try to emulate previous designs that worked well, like room-based maps such as Chill Out/Cold Storage. Why? Because with too many corners, it's too easy to sprint away from a bad position.

 

343 absolutely needs to release no sprint gametypes for the community to use and test and not worry about getting banned for because it's not ultra-fast paced and chaotic gameplay that made Halo fun. It was the planning and the strategizing and the mind-games of know where someone could go after you lost sight of them that made Halo fun and challenging. Sprint shits on all of that, and I doubt I'll be able to stomach this game much longer without the developer support that's needed. And god forbid Halo 5 not even given us the option to remove sprint from launch again. If that's the case, I can promise 343 that I will not buy their game.

 

Halo had a formula that worked since Halo:CE. Over the years, changes such as dual-wielding and equipment has come and gone, but, until Halo: Reach, the core of Halo remained the same. Dual-wielding was supposedly removed because it was a nightmare to balance - because it didn't fit with the more established and expected elements of the Halo franchise. So why is the same not being applied to Sprint? We get that other, now more successful games like Call of Duty features sprint, but it always has. Adding elements of another game will not attract people from that audience. You don't see Pro CoD players jumping ship to come play Halo 4 because it has sprint... but you do see pro Halo players jumping ship because that franchise has stayed true to what they are and perfected it.

 

If 343 were to remove sprint from even one playlist, be it Legendary Slayer or Throwdown, you'll see it's population surge and, after the Forge community has some time, you'll see some of the best Forge map designs yet that will quickly replace some of the less inspired disc maps like Adrift and Solace.

 

The Halo franchise cannot, and will not, survive without staying true to what it has always been, back when it was a successful title.

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Before I get any hatred or anything... 

 

I don't -care- about Sprint or No sprint. They could easily adjust it to make it less of a "Get out of Jail" card, in Saucey's video I have to agree with his argument on casuals. 

(I do prefer No-sprint)

 

(The Argument of Questions)

 

Is having No-Sprint going to get you back in the game and playing full time?  (To the point of spending craploads of money on tournaments or just hopping on Throwdown for a week before going back to CoD?)

How many pro's and even other's would come back to Halo?  

 

Is having Sprint (Even slightly adjusted) enough to pull more casuals and others to the game from Halo or Others? 

 

The point that we have to think on is "What makes people play Halo competitively?" Is it No sprint? Is it Zero Bloom? 

 

I personally believe Halo's competitive experience is defined by the individual and team fights, The "OutBR's", The "Sick No-Scopes and Quickscopes" That amazing communication and the rush you get when you are capping the flag during a clutch push to save a series. These are just a few things to the whole picture. 

 

Reach was really boring to watch and play, And I don't think it was sprint, It was Maps, Bloom, The Kill-times, the flow of the game.  (I could be wrong but it's what I noticed) 

 

When thinking of what you want in the game, Is it what you want? Or is it what the game needs? 

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The point that we have to think on is "What makes people play Halo competitively?" Is it No sprint? Is it Zero Bloom? 

 

I personally believe Halo's competitive experience is defined by the individual and team fights, The "OutBR's", The "Sick No-Scopes and Quickscopes" That amazing communication and the rush you get when you are capping the flag during a clutch push to save a series. These are just a few things to the whole picture.

You cannot look at each variable independently. They all effect each other. For example you say the "OutBR's" is one of the great experiences Halo brings, which I agree, well when you have no sprint people always have their guns up such that most encounters will start on equal footing with each player shooting there first bullet at the same time.

 

Now add sprint and you will get less even encounters just by nature of people sprinting (guns down) which correlates to less satisfaction from BR fights because a larger number of them will start off on unequal footings.

 

Point is sprint effects many areas of the game, both positively and negatively, now when you sum all the areas it effects and you weigh there importance properly you end up with a negative number as your summation. In other words, sprint all together brings a negative effect to the game.

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Here's my answers to the above...

 

Is having No-Sprint going to get you back in the game and playing full time?

A: Absolutely. In Halo 3, even before I got into competing at events, I played at least 5 hours daily, and that was while attending High School. While I work full time, I still spend roughly the same amount of time "unavailable" as I did then, but now I probably average 5 hours per week. If I had my way... I'd like to see a Slayer Pro only playlist without sprint, 4v4 arena maps, no ordnance, radar on to 25 meters. Basically, classic Team Slayer. I would easily play for 5 hours a day again. Turn radar off and go BR only start, you've got Throwdown.

 

How many pro's and even other's would come back to Halo?

A: Quite a few, from what I'm aware of. There are a lot of former pros who said that if descoping came back, so would they. But I'm sure a great number of people would come back if even sprint was removed, or at least play more. We're just now seeing people like StrongSide, Neighbor and Naded take more of an interest in the game. The more you bring back Halo, the more people will come back.

 

Is having Sprint (Even slightly adjusted) enough to pull more casuals and others to the game from Halo or Others?

A: In my opinion, no. Halo appeals to a limited number of people, the same way Call of Duty and Gears of War, other successful shooters, appeal to another group of people. Each of these games do what they do very well. The best bet for developers of such established titles to bring new faces into their community is to simply perfect what they do and make it appealing. StarCraft 2, for instance. I'm not a huge RTS fan, and I've played quite a few. But I not only enjoy playing SC2, but I enjoy watching it. Why? Because the game does what it does very well and doesn't try to be something else. The developer simply gives the community the tools to make it what they want.

 

The point that we have to think on is "What makes people play Halo competitively?" Is it No sprint? Is it Zero Bloom?

A: It is the Halo formula that existed between Halo: CE and Halo 3. Despite the many changes that occurred, the core gameplay was never radically adjusted until Halo: Reach and this was when we first saw Halo's population drop, and not just slightly. Any developer or community leader interested in keeping the Halo franchise alive and putting it back on top should look to the success of Halo 3, both casually and competitively, and emulate that as much as possible while incorporating new ideas to keep each installment fresh and unique. What new ideas am I talking about, if not sprint or loadouts? Weapon and armor skins, new maps and Forge environments, game modes like Extraction, etc. Things that don't change the Halo core, but simply stylize it a bit more. Equipment was a very nice addition to all but the most competitive levels of Halo 3, for example, and it did little to change the core gameplay.

 

When thinking of what you want in the game, Is it what you want? Or is it what the game needs?

A: At the end of the day, developers are out to make a profit. While Halo 4 is the best selling Halo game to date, it also has the lowest population and I don't recall any 'new' Halo title ever being this low on the Xbox Live Activity list. As a twenty-something with no business degree, that tells me that Halo 4 had an excellent marketing and advertising campaign, but the product failed to meet the expectations of it's existing fan-base. I'd be very interested in comparing the DLC sale figures of Halo 3 to Halo 4 because I'm certain that despite initial sales for Halo 4 being higher, their DLC sales are probably much lower and this is because, to put it blankly, no one cares enough about this game anymore to spend more money on it.

 

I got off track, but to answer the question... the game needs to go back to what made it successful. Halo 4 should have been Halo 3 with AAs replacing Equipment, Extraction, new maps, spectator mode and hitscan. The population of this game would be stupid if that had been the case and we'd probably be on the MLG circuit.

 

 

 

 

Again, the developer needs to support their community. Numbers don't lie, and according to the Waypoint poll... lots of people want no sprint. After launch, a video game ceases to be the property of the developer and is now owned by the community. It is their job, as a producer, to listen to feedback and respond. It's one thing if, like in Halo 3's BR spread, the number of people avidly talking about something is, in the grand scheme of things, negligible. But over 70% of the polled population want Sprint gone. That's more of a blow out than most presidential elections, and if they have the majority, they win.

 

So why haven't we won?

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Sprint isn't going anywhere in Halo 4.

Hopefully there will be a toggle in the next game. I like it for some gametypes like BTB, but gametypes like 4v4 slayer, ctf, ext it just doesn't work for me :(

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Hopefully there will be a toggle in the next game. I like it for some gametypes like BTB, but gametypes like 4v4 slayer, ctf, ext it just doesn't work for me :(

It's one way or the other sadly, you can't have it in half the gametypes and not the others.

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Sprint isn't going anywhere in Halo 4.

To me, that's unacceptable. If 343 wants to keep it in this game just because, but then remove it or make it at least an option in Halo 5, I can understand that. I don't approve, but I can understand. But people like me who are completely turned off by sprint and everything it does to Halo's game-play will not be all that eager to pick up Halo 5.

 

For example... if 343 had never done the weapon tuning and then, come Halo 5, they advertised that all their precision rifles were balanced... I wouldn't believe a god damn word of it. However, since this weapon tuning, if they start talking about balance changes... I'm more inclined to believe them.

 

Now obviously, sprint and no sprint is pretty hit or miss.... there's no real issue about belief. It's just "Oh, yep, there's sprint" or "Nope, don't see sprinting". But to me, it's about the core experience. Bravo talks a big game about this Legendary Slayer supposedly going for a more 'classic' feel, but I don't believe a word of it. Why? AR only starts and sprints still there. I'm sorry, but there's nothing 'classic' about that. Now if they said it featured no sprint, for a more 'classic' feel... well shit, maybe when Halo 5 launches and they say it has a 'classic Halo feel', I'll be more inclined to believe them.

 

Maybe it's just me personally, but Reach left a very bad taste in my mouth. So when 343 Industries said to trust them, I did - new developer, why not. But fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. My trust and faith in 343 Industries is minimal and it's only my love for Halo that keeps me from trading this game in. The path to earning back my trust is one not easily walked, but they're making progress. But all I'm saying is that Halo 5 still better have the best god damn beta I've ever seen, or I'll just watch a 'Let's Play' of the campaign on YouTube.

 

Edit: I'd also like to apologize if anyone is taking my posts as aggressive towards any person or the developer. I assure you that that's not my tone when writing these posts. Just to clarify so there's no misunderstandings. :)

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When thinking of what you want in the game, Is it what you want? Or is it what the game needs?

A: At the end of the day, developers are out to make a profit. While Halo 4 is the best selling Halo game to date, it also has the lowest population and I don't recall any 'new' Halo title ever being this low on the Xbox Live Activity list. As a twenty-something with no business degree, that tells me that Halo 4 had an excellent marketing and advertising campaign, but the product failed to meet the expectations of it's existing fan-base. I'd be very interested in comparing the DLC sale figures of Halo 3 to Halo 4 because I'm certain that despite initial sales for Halo 4 being higher, their DLC sales are probably much lower and this is because, to put it blankly, no one cares enough about this game anymore to spend more money on it.

 

I got off track, but to answer the question... the game needs to go back to what made it successful. Halo 4 should have been Halo 3 with AAs replacing Equipment, Extraction, new maps, spectator mode and hitscan. The population of this game would be stupid if that had been the case and we'd probably be on the MLG circuit.

Nice knowledge bomb but here is a correction on the sales when it comes to Halo.

Halo 4 did not outsell Halo 3 or Halo Reach for that madder. Here are the numbers:

 

Halo 3 - 11.87m units

Halo: Reach - 9.44m units

Halo 4 - 8.37m units

***m for million

So to add more fuel to your fire Halo 3 to date, has outsold Halo 4 by 40.7%. A substantial figure considering the amount of gamers has only gone up. Evidently so has the competition. 

Another nice number to bring up, is how Halo 4 has been the game with the biggest price tag for Microsoft; and they make a lot of games.

 

Oh and as for AAs instead of equipment, I'm a believer that AAs on map are just a cheep form of a power up. I'd rather see power ups instead.

 

Hopefully there will be a toggle in the next game. I like it for some gametypes like BTB, but gametypes like 4v4 slayer, ctf, ext it just doesn't work for me :(

That is the thing though, in BTB you shouldn't be walking all the time, that why the vehicle play is so dominantly important.

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You do not need Sprint in BTB or any other game-type either, the only reason BTB Map's seem to work decently at times with Sprint is because of their insane size, and all of those Map's are really huge. If the game had been designed with No Sprint in the beginning then we would have better Map's, more accurate scaled ones, more creativity seen in each of those Map's as well since you would have had more time and room to add neat elements.

 

Saying Sprint is needed, ever, is a mistake.. it only really works in two games that I know of and that is Call of Duty, Gear's of War, it works in Call of Duty simply due to extremely fast kill times. I also think Titanfall will work with Sprint, simply because that game is designed from the ground up for the element, and the environments, Map's, are insanely massive due to the fact you have agile 25 ft tall Mech's running around everywhere and need the extra scale.

 

Sprint however is not a element you simply slap into a game or take lightly when making a game in general.. and for some games it simply does not and will not ever work. Halo, Crysis, for instance are two very good examples of games where it does not work very well at all, and it simply becomes a very annoying, frustrating, crutch.

 

If I was a Developer, I would not want to even deal with the Sprint factor, because it would allow me to put my focus on much more important elements of a game, and it is much easier to balance a game without a annoying element like Sprint being factored into it.

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To me, that's unacceptable. If 343 wants to keep it in this game just because, but then remove it or make it at least an option in Halo 5, I can understand that. I don't approve, but I can understand. But people like me who are completely turned off by sprint and everything it does to Halo's game-play will not be all that eager to pick up Halo 5.

 

For example... if 343 had never done the weapon tuning and then, come Halo 5, they advertised that all their precision rifles were balanced... I wouldn't believe a god damn word of it. However, since this weapon tuning, if they start talking about balance changes... I'm more inclined to believe them.

 

Now obviously, sprint and no sprint is pretty hit or miss.... there's no real issue about belief. It's just "Oh, yep, there's sprint" or "Nope, don't see sprinting". But to me, it's about the core experience. Bravo talks a big game about this Legendary Slayer supposedly going for a more 'classic' feel, but I don't believe a word of it. Why? AR only starts and sprints still there. I'm sorry, but there's nothing 'classic' about that. Now if they said it featured no sprint, for a more 'classic' feel... well shit, maybe when Halo 5 launches and they say it has a 'classic Halo feel', I'll be more inclined to believe them.

 

Maybe it's just me personally, but Reach left a very bad taste in my mouth. So when 343 Industries said to trust them, I did - new developer, why not. But fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. My trust and faith in 343 Industries is minimal and it's only my love for Halo that keeps me from trading this game in. The path to earning back my trust is one not easily walked, but they're making progress. But all I'm saying is that Halo 5 still better have the best god damn beta I've ever seen, or I'll just watch a 'Let's Play' of the campaign on YouTube.

 

Edit: I'd also like to apologize if anyone is taking my posts as aggressive towards any person or the developer. I assure you that that's not my tone when writing these posts. Just to clarify so there's no misunderstandings. :)

You have to quite understand a huge amount of people want Sprint for casual gametypes. Maybe you, me and this forum don't like it. But you can find people who either dont care about sprint or like sprint.

In my opinion, I think the best option would be having two playlists. SOCIAL and RANKED playlist. Which in Social there is sprint and armor abilities or stuff like that, and in Ranked there's a 100% competitive settings w/o sprint, etc.

I dont think getting rid of sprint out of the entire game will be a solution for future problems, I would like to see Halo evolving both competitive and casual sides. It's just... I dont like sprint in competitive settings, but in casual gametypes I like it, to mess around, to get places fast, getting killed and spawn in china and go where I died in seconds. I know it has a lots of CONS... but in the casual side its quite different and fun.

 

Maybe is not Halo and I totally agree that Sprint shouldn't be in competitive settings.... But getting rid of sprint won't help Halo that much.

Bungie did a huge step when they did the armor abilities in Reach, it was SO FREAKING DIFFERENT when you compare it from other games, maybe not great but it was different.

 

I would like to see Halo evolving, not going back and be a copy of one of the first games with better graphics, I dont want Halo to become a CoD who recycles gameplay and features just because the devs are scared of changes.

 

I want to see Halo and its community to progress. And in my honest opinion I dont want sprint in the competitive side, but I would like to see it in the casual side at least.

 

:/ no-one will agree... right?

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You have to quite understand a huge amount of people want Sprint for casual gametypes. Maybe you, me and this forum don't like it. But you can find people who either dont care about sprint or like sprint.

I'd be more than satisfied if Sprint went back to even being a toggle option like in Halo: Reach. Anything but a forced mechanic.

 

And the poll I referenced where I said over 70% of the population wanted sprint gone was done on Waypoint, Home of the Casual Halo Gamer. It's not just a competitive issue.

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In my opinion, I think the best option would be having two playlists. SOCIAL and RANKED playlist. Which in Social there is sprint and armor abilities or stuff like that, and in Ranked there's a 100% competitive settings w/o sprint, etc.

With such radical settings you would almost have to create two games in one...

 

You shouldn't factor people who don't care whether sprint stays or not in the No Sprint vs Sprint debate.

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I'd be more than satisfied if Sprint went back to even being a toggle option like in Halo: Reach. Anything but a forced mechanic.

 

And the poll I referenced where I said over 70% of the population wanted sprint gone was done on Waypoint, Home of the Casual Halo Gamer. It's not just a competitive issue.

70% of 2200 people...

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Im coming over from the THC. I like this site, but i dont like how post get deleted becasue you disagree. Multiple posts of mine have been deleated for voicing the truth.

 

Both the casuals and competitve community do NOT want sprint.

 

Why has Ghost not addressed the issue? I am entiled to bitch because of his actions. I believe he is a good leader for the community, but he is not doing any good by his actions and the way he is addressing the situation.

 

NO SPRINT has been tested and works well BETTER than sprint.

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I'd be more than satisfied if Sprint went back to even being a toggle option like in Halo: Reach. Anything but a forced mechanic.

 

And the poll I referenced where I said over 70% of the population wanted sprint gone was done on Waypoint, Home of the Casual Halo Gamer. It's not just a competitive issue.

 

IMO Waypoint is not home of the casual halo gamer. Of course, I would call those guys "casuals" compared to beyond ent. But really, casual gamers, who make up a majority of buyers, don't scour message boards. And the guys on waypoint may be casual, but they're still diehard halo fans in many ways (including nostalgia). But I'm not just trying to discount that poll.

 

I would guess that the majority of halo players (who bought the game, not those still playing) are indifferent towards sprint or like it just a little bit. But I also think this crowd would feel that the game is regressing if they took out sprint for the next game. [Have you guys read the ridiculous reviews for h4 that said it was outdated for not having ADS?! That's the mentality the larger community has.]

 

I want sprint gone (in h4 and h5), but I'm clueless as to whether that would be best for sales, which most likely drives a metric bleep-ton of decisions. 

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I would guess that the majority of halo players (who bought the game, not those still playing) are indifferent towards sprint or like it just a little bit. But I also think this crowd would feel that the game is regressing if they took out sprint for the next game. [Have you guys read the ridiculous reviews for h4 that said it was outdated for not having ADS?! That's the mentality the larger community has.

 

I can't speak for everyone on this thread, but I feel like most people here would be happy if they removed sprint for TTD . I personally think it would be unfair to ask for an across the board removal of sprint in Halo 4. I think sprint is fine for BTB, SWAT, Dominion, etc. And I don't think they should change the other casual playlists like Infinity Slayer since they have had sprint from the start. Perhaps they could have TRIED taking out sprint in Legendary Slayer since it is a new playlist and is supposed to emulate "classic" halo. But back to my original point, they could have easily removed sprint for Throwdown. Just that one playlist where I can pretty much guarantee at least 70% of players would prefer no sprint. They did it for Reach v7, so why not for Halo 4?

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I can't speak for everyone on this thread, but I feel like most people here would be happy if they removed sprint for TTD . I personally think it would be unfair to ask for an across the board removal of sprint in Halo 4. I think sprint is fine for BTB, SWAT, Dominion, etc. And I don't think they should change the other casual playlists like Infinity Slayer since they have had sprint from the start. Perhaps they could have TRIED taking out sprint in Legendary Slayer since it is a new playlist and is supposed to emulate "classic" halo. But back to my original point, they could have easily removed sprint for Throwdown. Just that one playlist where I can pretty much guarantee at least 70% of players would prefer no sprint. They did it for Reach v7, so why not for Halo 4?

I agree with this, and I think most people here have the same, understanding mindset. We understand that seeing sprint removed entirely from Halo 4 isn't going to happen because maps were designed for it, there's certain armor mods that directly affect it, etc. We, as the competitive community, simply want some damn custom games and at least one playlist. Though I agree, I think if any playlist should have gotten no sprint, it's Legendary Slayer.

 

My biggest complaint is that they're willing to remove sprint and put the gametype into matchmaking (Lightning Flag) but when we actually ask for it, we're shot down, and I can't wrap my head around that. They'll even put the mini spartan mod into matchmaking, but releasing official "no sprint" gametypes is too much?

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How many maps would we lose if we got rid of sprint? Adrift, Station 9, what else? Could we not simply replace Adrift with the Pit when it comes out and we have already seen that no sprint can improve maps like Onxy, Skyline, Haven, what else needs to be discussed outside of politics? Because honestly that should be the only concern of any sane comp Halo player over whether sprint should stay or not.  We have seen multiple videos of no sprint working(and working better in most cases) in H4 and its been given as an option to Ghost for a long time and yet he wont even test it?

 

I am a believer in progression of a comp game and if that progression means having to get rid of a few maps(improving other maps in return and opening the possibility for new or returning Arena style maps) and the non-existent casual H4 player's approval so be it. We saw the same "universal" "causal appeal" argument made in Reach for MLG staying with sprint at nationals and it was the worst nationals in terms of turnout in Halo history. I know its not the EXACT same case, and some of the maps were made for sprint in this game but 4v4 Halo was not made to be played with sprint from a game-play and map design perspective. It might make half-way sense in BTB, where chaos and imbalances are masked anyways by teamwork and large numbers but in Arena style Halo it does not fit.

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I'm on the fence, I agree with all of you, just for me its not the "BIG" issue, more so armor abilities, perks and all that crap but I am about to be pleased with Legendary Slayer.

Now, to the point I really don't see how removing sprint from Throwdown will hurt it in any way. Even at AGL I don't see the numbers going down. Lets be honest at this point if you haven't tried Throwdown you probably won't so if you make the transition that much harder it really doesn't madder. And hey if Throwdown goes no sprint maybe Legendary Slayer could too! 

So to me, I don't care that much, its not my biggest problem, however listening to all to compelling arguments from this community there is no reason why Ghost should not act and implement no sprint for v5.

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