Current State of Halo PC - The Xbox Experience

[Riddler]

What do you mean? The fact that the left stick, even with the fix, is only 8-directions and doesn't allow for walking?

Yeah. Jumps like the zyos jump are really awkward. Jumping while shooting and navigating platforms is also very awkward (like pistol from ribs on damnation or top mid on priz). On PC I have to play differently in that regard in my movement.

[stunt_man]

Yeah. Jumps like the zyos jump are really awkward. Jumping while shooting and navigating platforms is also very awkward (like pistol from ribs on damnation or top mid on priz). On PC I have to play differently in that regard in my movement.

 

What controller are you using? I got pretty good settings on an OG S controller with XBCD drivers + XPadder. Still 8-way but feels good

[t3h m00kz]

Still, they did fix it though... I'd love to see 360 degrees of movement fixed and then the subsequent network issues fixed since MCC proved it was possible.

 

There's a bit of a difference between rewriting a game's neatly organized source code vs. modders wading through compiled executables and hacking in fixes. 343 presumably has HPC source code, seeing as they own the franchise and have ported it to Xbone. Unfortunately the bundled PC Editing Kit is bound to the limitations of the compiled code.

 

It's possible, yes, but would take some reverse engineering and injecting of new code.

 

 

PS guys how is the shot registration now? I know the update just says "improved" but really, how improved is it? Is it better than MCC?

 

 

MCC (in the case of pistol/sniper at least):

-Shot reg is entirely client-side/client-authoritative.

 

Let's say you shoot at a guy on your screen. If you see your projectile impact, it will do damage regardless of connection, regardless of the spread RNG system. A system like this would be extremely bad for PC, as a hacker could easily modify their client to cheat. MCC also seems to have some serious issues with the auto-aim (bullet magnetism) and magnetism (sticky aim) systems which never got cleaned up.

 

stunt-man's server:

- Shot reg is server-side/server-authorative, with massive improvements made by modders and the community.

 

first a crash-course in PC's netcode history.

 

PC had absolutely terrible shot reg back in the day. You had to manually aim ahead based on your connection for your shots to land. Visual lies everywhere. The worse the connection you had, the more unplayable the game. Bungie/Gearbox patched a few things (presumably network tick rates), but the actual issues were never officially fixed.

 

Vanilla PC shot reg (see ~2:55):

 

Modders improved the shot registration by attempting to push other players' models forward based on ping to compensate for lag, removing the visual lie of player positions. Some servers opt out of this mod and run stock PC netcode which is dumb and I hate them.

 

No-lead fix:

 

The problem with this fix being, RNG (such as weapon spread) runs separately on the server and clients, and you can visually see shots hit on your client that miss on the server, doing no damage. Improved, but some visual lies still exist.

 

Stunt-man's servers use the no-lead mod, as well as a few client-side fixes (pretty hacky but very cleverly made, I've looked at the tags). A projectile impact effect will appear on the enemy, but only if the shot hits server-side and does damage. There's some latency before the effect appears, but you can clearly tell when a shot registers. It's very similar to how CS:GO handles things. There are a few very minor visual lies compared to a client-authorative shot system, but it's pretty damn hacker-proof (a trade-off well worth having), and "plays" more or less the same as a client-authorative system would, and feels incredible.

 

Plus it doesn't have all of the aim assist bugs present in MCC.

 

E: Grabbed a video of Stunt Man's FX fix on 100 ping, fixing youtube links:

[VinnyMendoza]

I knew about a lot of things in that post, but it was still very informative and good points about how this is basically a hacked code so we can't expect the same results.

That video of 100 ping looked pretty good. I guess I will have to log on and check it out soon.

 

One last thing, stunt_man, you said shot lead is not variable like on Xbox Halo. Do you mean that distance does not affect how much you have to lead? It's just a set ping lead to try to mostly replicate Xbox lead that most engagements will take place in?

[Lateksi]

Distance always matters, because of bullet travel time in the game.

[stunt_man]

I knew about a lot of things in that post, but it was still very informative and good points about how this is basically a hacked code so we can't expect the same results.

 

That video of 100 ping looked pretty good. I guess I will have to log on and check it out soon.

 

One last thing, stunt_man, you said shot lead is not variable like on Xbox Halo. Do you mean that distance does not affect how much you have to lead? It's just a set ping lead to try to mostly replicate Xbox lead that most engagements will take place in?

 

Pretty much this:

 

Distance always matters, because of bullet travel time in the game.

 

On Xbox it varies with distance but also with the direction you're strafing in (that's not exactly how it works, but it's the best way I can articulate it). So it's still variable depending on distance (ex: shooting someone across Hang 'em requires more lead).

 

@@t3h m00kz Thanks for the vids!

 

Remember guys for the effects to play you have to land your shots :^)

[VinnyMendoza]

OK great, I was hoping you'd say that! Game wouldn't be the same without it. So you're saying there's a fixed ping lead + variable distance lead, much like offhost on Xbox?

 

If it's consistent it sounds nearly perfect then? Maybe if we fixed warping and other issues it could even be better than LAN because no one has host advantage with dedis?

 

Only thing that would make it even better is smooth 60fps but I remember discussing in the discord chat that sounded like a nightmare that we couldn't believe whoever ported it actually pulled it off.

[stunt_man]

OK great, I was hoping you'd say that! Game wouldn't be the same without it. So you're saying there's a fixed ping lead + variable distance lead, much like offhost on Xbox?

 

If it's consistent it sounds nearly perfect then? Maybe if we fixed warping and other issues it could even be better than LAN because no one has host advantage with dedis?

 

Only thing that would make it even better is smooth 60fps but I remember discussing in the discord chat that sounded like a nightmare that we couldn't believe whoever ported it actually pulled it off.

 

I don't want to say it's "much like offhost LAN" because it feels different and I don't want to over sell this thing. But it is certainly consistent for all players in the server, within reason (I don't know what it's like when you start getting into crazy-high-ping-territory ex: 150 + ).

 

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a warp fix for player contact on the horizon. The other warping fix (the one related to player velocity), is a possbility but I haven't heard back from the person that came up with the theory.

 

Because of this, I still consider Xbox LAN to be superior, but it is nice to play on guaranteed dedicated servers, unlike MCC.

 

Halo PC can run at upwards of 500 FPS lol it's just the animations that are locked to 30 FPS. Doesn't bother me very much tbh and the framerate doesn't drop at all if you aren't running the game on a toaster.

 

 

 

*** I can't stress this enough: many of these fixes ARE NOT live in the mapcycle yet. They are coming soon with the final releases of the maps. Don't expect to play the maps with these fixes by simply joining the server. If you join the Discord group I can give you permission to download the test maps and I can put them up on a server if you want to try it out. Otherwise you'll have to wait a couple more weeks ***

[t3h m00kz]

On Xbox it varies with distance but also with the direction you're strafing in (that's not exactly how it works, but it's the best way I can articulate it). So it's still variable depending on distance (ex: shooting someone across Hang 'em requires more lead).

 

interesting. do you have any video examples of this difference? is this flag checked on the xbox projectiles?

 

it's been a while since I've messed with it, but I believe this flag adds the velocity of the player on top of the projectile velocity. if you're strafing left and fire a plasma rifle with this flag checked, the bolt will shift left with your movements

 

if it's not checked, there's something else going on. must be a difference in aim assist over the network or something

 

Halo PC can run at upwards of 500 FPS lol it's just the animations that are locked to 30 FPS. Doesn't bother me very much tbh and the framerate doesn't drop at all if you aren't running the game on a toaster.

 

can confirm. the game's old and, while it wasn't all that optimized for it's time, doesn't require crazy hardware to get really good framerates. I hit upwards of 650 fps on a GTX970 (mid tier of last year's line of nvidea cards).

 

to touch on the tick rates, everything in the game except the player's first person movement and view seems to be locked at 30

 

-fx

-object/character position updates

-bullet travel time ticks

-etc etc

 

if a projectile's velocity is set to 60 world units a second, it will travel at 2 world units a tick for 30 ticks (MCC would do 1 world unit a tick for 60 ticks). I'm on a 144hz monitor, and player movement is somewhat noticeably jittery. it's noticeable but, in my opinion, it doesn't interfere with gameplay, and keeps the gameplay closer to og xbox.

 

it's pretty clear gearbox couldn't be assed to deal with bugs when they ported CE. but honestly for a console port reliant on the game to run at 30 ticks a second, their method was smart and a good way to unlock the framerate without dealing with tick increase bugs. lazy and low-effort, but smart. halo online is locked at 60 FPS for everything and it pisses me off, because my pc should be able to handle much more

 

late E: fixing image link

[stunt_man]

interesting. is this flag checked on the xbox projectiles?

 

I believe this flag adds the velocity of the player on top of the projectile velocity. if you're strafing left and fire a plasma rifle with this flag checked, the bolt will shift left with your movements

 

if it's not checked, there's something else going on. must be a difference in aim assist over the network or something

 

 

to touch on this, everything in the game except the player's first person movement and view seems to be locked at 30

 

-fx

-object/character position updates

-bullet travel time ticks

-etc etc

 

if a projectile's velocity is set to 60 world units a second, it will travel at 2 world units a tick for 30 ticks (MCC would do 1 world unit a tick for 60 ticks). I'm on a 144hz monitor, and player movement is somewhat noticeably jittery. it's noticeable but, in my opinion, it doesn't interfere with gameplay, and keeps the gameplay closer to og xbox.

 

it's pretty clear gearbox couldn't be assed to deal with bugs when they ported CE. but honestly for a console port reliant on the game to run at 30 ticks a second, their method was smart and a good way to unlock the framerate without dealing with tick increase bugs. lazy and low-effort, but smart. halo online is locked at 60 FPS for everything and it pisses me off, because my pc should be able to handle much more

 

Need to investigate that projectile tag. Pretty sure I compared them in the past but it's worth looking into again for sure if it means we can get it to play closer to the original

[NAK]

Would it be possible to get rid of the random pistol spread? Although it is rather slight as it is now. 

[stunt_man]

Would it be possible to get rid of the random pistol spread? Although it is rather slight as it is now.

 

That's not a bug? The bullets magnetise correctly on PC (as opposed to MCC), the pistol's spread is the same as it is in the original version. Can you elaborate?

[t3h m00kz]

Need to investigate that projectile tag. Pretty sure I compared them in the past but it's worth looking into again for sure if it means we can get it to play closer to the original

do you have any videos of this behaviour lying around anywhere

 

 

That's not a bug? The bullets magnetism correctly on PC (as opposed to MCC), the pistol's spread is the same as it is in the original version. Can you elaborate?

 

confirming this, og xbox had the same spread as pc. there's always been a slight factor of randomness in longer-range pistol fights

 

[NAK]

That's not a bug? The bullets magnetise correctly on PC (as opposed to MCC), the pistol's spread is the same as it is in the original version. Can you elaborate?

 

Oh, yeah I didn't mean it as a bug. I was just asking if it were possible to remove the random spread and make the pistol shoot perfectly straight. I don't know how it works so it very well could be impossible or impractical. 

[t3h m00kz]

such a change is very easy - it's as simple as 0ing out the error fields in the pistol. however the goal of this mod is to be 1:1 with xbox behaviour, and a change like that would impact balance and would change the game.

[stunt_man]

Oh, yeah I didn't mean it as a bug. I was just asking if it were possible to remove the random spread and make the pistol shoot perfectly straight. I don't know how it works so it very well could be impossible or impractical. 

 

 

 

the goal of this mod is to be 1:1 with xbox behaviour, and a change like that would impact balance and would change the game.

 

Yeah this is what it comes down to. @@Qbit was working on a mod awhile ago but I haven't heard from him in awhile. He was trying to make the game more of a PC shooter, removing elements that are focused around controller movement/aiming and stuff like that.

[stunt_man]

confirming this, og xbox had the same spread as pc. there's always been a slight factor of randomness in longer-range pistol fights

 

 

Great video btw

 

do you have any videos of this behaviour lying around anywhere

Hmm I don't have any specific examples for you. You can probably see what I mean by watching some Xbox gameplay on Youtube, but it's best noticed when actually playing off-host.

[t3h m00kz]

that makes sense. off-host xbox is really wierd.

xbox's networking is 99% lockstep/deterministic, a very simple, very basic form of networking. everything is delayed until everybody in the game agrees on what is happening. players' movements are delayed, inputs are delayed, it's heavy on network traffic as everything in-game is sent to all players, but the benefit is everything seen is the "truth."

 

an exception to the delayed input is first person look input and aiming which is handled locally on each xbox. however if a player drags their reticule and fires, their shot will lag behind their reticule since their look is not synced to the server.

 

halo 3 co-op, odst co-op and reach co-op use this system.

 

you can get somewhat similar results running without the no-lead mod and ticking that "projectile appears server-side" flag we talked about, but it doesn't update properly and is visually broken.

 

personally, for me, I think split-screen behavior is expected to be the golden standard. my opinion is lockstep networking is archaic and should never be referenced for gameplay, but rather referenced for visually showing everything that's happening in the game. host advantage is far too great, and bad connections are at a massive disadvantage. if anything, I would expect everybody to feel as if they are on equal terms to the host and lag is cleverly hidden, never interfering with the game.

[NAK]

such a change is very easy - it's as simple as 0ing out the error fields in the pistol. however the goal of this mod is to be 1:1 with xbox behaviour, and a change like that would impact balance and would change the game.

 

Yeah I have just always wondered how Hang em' or Dere would play with no pistol spread. Thanks for the response. 

[VinnyMendoza]

I know the game can run higher than 30 fps but I'm talking about animations. They look terrible imo, nothing like they do on OG. It does affect gameplay for me personally. The jitteryness is distracting.

 

I agree with Nak about removing pistol spread too. Probably the worst design decision Hardy made but fortunately bullet magnetism fixes it in most cases. We have modded other things about the game to make it better competitively, why not this?

 

PS thanks again for all the hard work you've put into this. You and mookz and the others involved are doing God's work. It's unfortunate that most people have completely written off halo PC as unfixable. We all need to spread the gospel about this mod to get it popular once we've got a final final version. Everyone in the old Lan community bought mcc so the interest is there. It just needs to work and maybe be more streamlined in the setup process (not sure how to do that part) and people will play.

[stunt_man]

I know the game can run higher than 30 fps but I'm talking about animations. They look terrible imo, nothing like they do on OG. It does affect gameplay for me personally. The jitteryness is distracting.

I'm genuinely not following you here. The animations are identical to the Xbox version... Are you thinking about warping or something related? For example, a 1st person reload animations on PC and on Xbox look identical, and even use the exact same tag files. I mean, 3rd person animations look weird on mouse players because they're looking around very quickly. Care to elaborate on this?

 

I agree with Nak about removing pistol spread too. Probably the worst design decision Hardy made but fortunately bullet magnetism fixes it in most cases. We have modded other things about the game to make it better competitively, why not this?

For the record, I haven't made any changes to the core gameplay - only fixes. There's some server features that aren't available on Xbox, like the on-screen timer, weapon pickup notifications and teammate spawn notifications, but I wouldn't consider those as huge changes to the core game (the notifications are present on split screen anyway). I won't be changing the pistol spread.

 

PS thanks again for all the hard work you've put into this. You and mookz and the others involved are doing God's work. It's unfortunate that most people have completely written off halo PC as unfixable. We all need to spread the gospel about this mod to get it popular once we've got a final final version. Everyone in the old Lan community bought mcc so the interest is there. It just needs to work and maybe be more streamlined in the setup process (not sure how to do that part) and people will play.

My pleasure. This project was originally geared towards bringing Xbox LAN-style gameplay to the PC community for the first time, but when we started figuring out how to make the controller feel better we started getting more Xbox players in the group. I agree about streamlining the installation process, but I'm not sure how far I could go with that without breaking the law (ex: repackaging the game's installer to include some of this stuff).

[VinnyMendoza]

I dunno what it is but the animations just don't look right to me. Maybe it's the way they move the mouse, yeah. Maybe it's just me? Or maybe it's just the way it looks in a network environment with slight delays on things.

 

I was talking about halo 1 final doing things like removing sounds which completely changes the game.

 

Is a modded install package illegal if no profit is being made? Would bungie or Microsoft even care about a few hundred or few thousand people modding the installer on a 15 year old game? Could we get legal permission? I feel like this is easily the biggest hurdle for people.

[stunt_man]

I was talking about halo 1 final doing things like removing sounds which completely changes the game.

Yeah but that mod is representative of how the game is played on LAN. If

 

Is a modded install package illegal if no profit is being made? Would bungie or Microsoft even care about a few hundred or few thousand people modding the installer on a 15 year old game? Could we get legal permission? I feel like this is easily the biggest hurdle for people.

I don't know but I wouldn't put it past them. Remember the people that are going to chase after you for breaking the rules aren't the guys like Hardy and Jason Jones, they're finance people that don't care about community-building and fanservice.

[Ling Ling]

I dunno what it is but the animations just don't look right to me. Maybe it's the way they move the mouse, yeah. Maybe it's just me? Or maybe it's just the way it looks in a network environment with slight delays on things.

 

Does it act that way on a local game? Campaign? Have you tried messing with the option that mentions V-sync/30FPS lock or your refresh rate?

[VinnyMendoza]

I'm gonna boot it up on PC and then boot up my OG Xbox to see if I'm just crazy and they are actually similar.