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Halo 5: Guardians Evolved Customs Thread

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It's not an attempt to impress you. It's an attempt to show you that your assumption that people only like radar because they haven't given no radar a fair chance is untrue.

 

 

It's not untrue or true, it's literally unprovable. Fortunately, my understanding of what works or doesn't work isn't based on the imaginary preferences of the majority. You can't make a game or a setting that is based on some hypothetical poll of the current playerbase, because they honestly don't know or understand what they actually are enjoying about a Halo game. That's not being facetious either.

 

You will always be a niche playlist because you are not 343 or Bungie. There is always going to be a majority of players sticking with default settings, and no amount of sacrificing your settings to pander to them will make a difference. Make the best settings you can and go from there.

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I assumed that is who we are targeting though.

 

Pretty much everyone involved in any way with these settings seems to have the firm belief that the majority of the overall halo playerbase would enjoy sprintless, abilityless Halo. This isn't supposed to be niche.

That is who we are targeting.

 

I have a small hope that this catches on enough to convince 343I to go back to Halo's roots(wishful thinking I know, don't remind me).

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It's not untrue or true, it's literally unprovable. Fortunately, my understanding of what works or doesn't work isn't based on the imaginary preferences of the majority. You can't make a game or a setting that is based on some hypothetical poll of the current playerbase, because they honestly don't know or understand what they actually are enjoying about a Halo game. That's not being facetious either.

 

You will always be a niche playlist because you are not 343 or Bungie. There is always going to be a majority of players sticking with default settings, and no amount of sacrificing your settings to pander to them will make a difference. Make the best settings you can and go from there.

There is tons of data that suggests the VAST majority of Halo players prefer playing with radar enabled. Hell I even remember Shishka talking about veto stats in the team throwback list in H3(featured both radar and no radar variants) and how the the radar enabled gametypes were obliterating the no radar gametypes.

 

Evolved settings are yes going to be niche by their nature but that's even more of a reason to keep it's appeal as wide as possible.

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You will always be a niche playlist because you are not 343 or Bungie. There is always going to be a majority of players sticking with default settings, and no amount of sacrificing your settings to pander to them will make a difference. Make the best settings you can and go from there.

Look man, we get what you are saying. You have very valid points. But unfortunately we are stuck in an even more unfortunate situation than in the past.

 

If the HCS thread is any indication, we don't really have any support from the 'competitive' community whatsoever. They are all about playing default H5 since that is what 343I is using for the tournaments.

 

If we had them, it would be easier to push for no radar. But we don't have them, even though you would think that they would be all over these Evolved settings. Our only option is to hopefully gain the support of the masses of non-competitive players. And perhaps since that player base has the most influence on 343I's sales, we could maybe even influence 343I to change their directon of default Halo to a more classic-inspired Halo.

 

But to do that, we have to prove to everyone that these settings are extremely fun to play. Because if it is fun, thats what they will play, or at least be very tempted to play. And thats what we need right now.

 

And to begin with, I designed the core of the Evolved settings from the ground up to be competitive, with the typical casual appeal options.

 

The very concept of the 4sk Magnum sandbox is only born from competitive-minded players on these forums, with a decent homage to HCE. And the point is that the 4sk Magnum balances out the sandbox, which it does.

 

The movement, jump, and acceleration settings are all set to be the most competitive as possible while simultaneously proving that we don't need Spartan Abilities.

 

And by default, radar is OFF, except for FFA. Also competitive-minded. With 25 Meter radar ready to back it up for casuals. And so far none of our new casual players haven't been completely turned off because of no radar, so we haven't actually had to really discuss it yet. But we are ready for what will likely happen with that (such as radar on for the playlist).

 

Even Gametype settings are designed from the core to be competitive.

 

Its not like we aren't aware of all this. We are trying to make do with what we have. And so far it is doing very well.

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There is tons of data that suggests the VAST majority of Halo players prefer playing with radar enabled. Hell I even remember Shishka talking about veto stats in the team throwback list in H3(featured both radar and no radar variants) and how the the radar enabled gametypes were obliterating the no radar gametypes.

 

Evolved settings are yes going to be niche by their nature but that's even more of a reason to keep it's appeal as wide as possible.

 

That's not very compelling data and all it proves is that players generally stick with what they are comfortable with. If Halo never featured radar, you wouldn't have a bunch of players sitting around saying, "man, I wish we had radar." It's an inherent bias that colors any sort of "majority" opinion you attempt to manufacture from playlist data or polls. It's like asking someone who has only ever had access to a Ford what their favorite car brand is.

 

Regardless, what the masses enjoy should be irrelevant to your discussion. Otherwise, you might as well have default Halo 5 gameplay because that's what playlist data shows everyone on Halo 5 prefers, right? Prove me wrong. Do you see the issue here? Selection bias ruins any argument regarding what we think players prefer. What you need to be asking yourself is, "Given our constraints, what will make Halo 5 the most balanced, fun, and rewarding experience possible?" If you ask that question, radar being on is not part of the answer but you also need to understand what your appeal is.

 

Niche by definition does not have wide appeal. That's why it's niche. You're going to lose the appeal of the settings by attempting to compete with default settings.

 

I'm not arguing against your settings, I'm arguing for you to trust them yourself.

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That's not very compelling data and all it proves is that players generally stick with what they are comfortable with. If Halo never featured radar, you wouldn't have a bunch of players sitting around saying, "man, I wish we had radar." It's an inherent bias that colors any sort of "majority" opinion you attempt to manufacture from playlist data or polls.

 

Regardless, what the masses enjoy should be irrelevant to your discussion. Otherwise, you might as well have default Halo 5 gameplay because that's what playlist data shows everyone on Halo 5 prefers, right? Prove me wrong. Do you see the issue here? Selection bias ruins any argument regarding what we think players prefer. What you need to be asking yourself is, "Given our constraints, what will make Halo 5 the most balanced, fun, and rewarding experience possible?" If you ask that question, radar being on is not part of the answer but you also need to understand what your appeal is.

 

Niche by definition does not have wide appeal. That's why it's niche. You're going to lose the appeal of the settings by attempting to compete with default settings.

Again you seem to be thinking people here want radar on. We don't and we play without. We would only concede if 343 asked us to (unlikely as it is for them to notice it though) so at least we can do SOMETHING for the community and get them a rather well put together game.

 

You can call it lack of integrity but I call it putting the community ahead of us :P

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Again you seem to be thinking people here want radar on. We don't and we play without. We would only concede if 343 asked us to (unlikely as it is for them to notice it though) so at least we can do SOMETHING for the community and get them a rather well put together game.

 

You can call it lack of integrity but I call it putting the community ahead of us :P

 

I'm not saying you all want radar, but I recognize that the attitude of "we'll meet you halfway to get it into MM" is a huge detriment.

 

It's doing a disservice to the community. The community doesn't need another radar-on gametype. It doesn't. It needs the most balanced, competitive experience you can give them with Halo 5's options. Radar being on is not that.

 

You have a message about what makes for good Halo; deliver it.

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Look man, we get what you are saying. You have very valid points. But unfortunately we are stuck in an even more unfortunate situation than in the past.

 

If the HCS thread is any indication, we don't really have any support from the 'competitive' community whatsoever. They are all about playing default H5 since that is what 343I is using for the tournaments.

 

If we had them, it would be easier to push for no radar. But we don't have them, even though you would think that they would be all over these Evolved settings. Our only option is to hopefully gain the support of the masses of non-competitive players. And perhaps since that player base has the most influence on 343I's sales, we could maybe even influence 343I to change their directon of default Halo to a more classic-inspired Halo.

 

But to do that, we have to prove to everyone that these settings are extremely fun to play. Because if it is fun, thats what they will play, or at least be very tempted to play. And thats what we need right now.

 

And to begin with, I designed the core of the Evolved settings from the ground up to be competitive, with the typical casual appeal options.

 

The very concept of the 4sk Magnum sandbox is only born from competitive-minded players on these forums, with a decent homage to HCE. And the point is that the 4sk Magnum balances out the sandbox, which it does.

 

The movement, jump, and acceleration settings are all set to be the most competitive as possible while simultaneously proving that we don't need Spartan Abilities.

 

And by default, radar is OFF, except for FFA. Also competitive-minded. With 25 Meter radar ready to back it up for casuals. And so far none of our new casual players haven't been completely turned off because of no radar, so we haven't actually had to really discuss it yet. But we are ready for what will likely happen with that (such as radar on for the playlist).

 

Even Gametype settings are designed from the core to be competitive.

 

Its not like we aren't aware of all this. We are trying to make do with what we have. And so far it is doing very well.

 

I think not having the support of the competitive community comes from several factors: (Note: I'm not knocking the tremendous effort you guys have put into this and I'm happy that the more frustrated of you have settings that you enjoy playing, but this is an objective view coming from someone that enjoys aspects of the competitive meta in H5 and can give some feedback on it).

 

1) These settings are not a compromise of current default settings to optimize the competitive merit of the game. Things like Thruster, Stabilize, slide, and GP all have skillful merit and have done plenty to create a movement skillgap that wasn't really present in classic Halo Post-CE outside of very rare circumstances. The only SA that I'm sure you would always get universal approval for it's removal would be Spartan Charge in it's current implementation. There are plenty of options regarding tweaks to the SA pool of abilities in custom options, yet the only one that I'm aware of that has been played with has been thruster. 

 

2) You have fixed problems and issues with the competitive meta while making other things worse. I like how the 4 shot pistol feels in these settings, and sometimes it just feels a little too good in respect to the sandbox. But there are some glaring issues. The sniper comes to mind. Thruster was one of the few checks to the ease of use of the sniper, but now it's gone. Basically the sniper becomes even more powerful than it was in default settings. The plasma pistol can't be thrust dodged either, making it's tracking absolutely ridiculous. Camo is made frustrating to use since you have to throttle your movement with settings that are intended to promote faster movement. The sword is just stupidly OP as well, which removes any and all close range melee weapons from being used and removes an interesting tool used for flag runs. You can't really juke a shotgun or scattershot anymore, etc.

 

3) Testing for dev maps should be paramount, not a second thought. While Halo 5 has an incredible forge and you may have maps that play really well with these settings... Getting a permanent playlist in mm will require you to have the settings work as good on dev maps as they do on forge maps. As I stated in my post on jumps, alot of the maps have been neutered and are even worse in terms of fairness, certain spawn traps are now even more difficult to break out of because you just take too long to get into positions that may help open up the map.

 

I'm sure there's other reasons I can come up with, but this is what I have gathered from several people who have tried the settings and have take issue with aspects of them. BTW, and this is super critical, you'd have a hard time finding people that like competitive default Halo 5 settings and DON'T WANT ANYTHING TO BE CHANGED WHATSOEVER. No radar, reduced strength of autos, weapon placement, mechanics changes, etc. All of these are things myself and others have discussed at length regarding H5G. It's silly to assume that we also don't want the most competitive game possible, but there is backlash from people in the Halo franchise that always want what THEY define to be "Halo." A definition mind you, that is completely subjective to almost every player in the franchise minus a few generalities (equal starts, Golden Triangle, shields, etc.)

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I'm not saying you all want radar, but I recognize that the attitude of "we'll meet you halfway to get it into MM" is a huge detriment.

 

It's doing a disservice to the community. The community doesn't need another radar-on gametype. It doesn't. It needs the most balanced, competitive experience you can give them with Halo 5's options. Radar being on is not that.

 

You have a message about what makes for good Halo; deliver it.

We have been trying. But I'm being real here: do you think the community would be on our side? I'm being honest.

 

If 343 ever let it happen, the community would still be treating H5 arena as the competitive playlist because its default. That alone cripples any chance of seeing Evolved as a comp playlist -_-

 

*sigh* I dislike conceding anything to 343 but the alternative is to not have a playlist at all. People like "classic" Halo, not competitive classic Halo; especially when they've been sold on H5 being the most competitive one ever

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*sigh* I dislike conceding anything to 343 but the alternative is to not have a playlist at all. People like "classic" Halo, not competitive classic Halo; especially when they've been sold on H5 being the most competitive one ever

 

Honestly, this is the thing. We aren't solely trying to sell classic competitive Halo.

 

We are trying to sell classic Halo to begin with.

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We have been trying. But I'm being real here: do you think the community would be on our side? I'm being honest.

 

If 343 ever let it happen, the community would still be treating H5 arena as the competitive playlist because its default. That alone cripples any chance of seeing Evolved as a comp playlist -_-

 

 

What community? The Halo 5 "community?" Who and what is that exactly? I have no problem being real; the Halo community as a whole generally has shitty opinions about Halo and a complete lack of awareness about what would actually make Halo better. I personally don't give a rats ass what they think they want because they have no clue. I'm not ignoring them, because you need players to enjoy your settings, but I am ignoring what they think they enjoy about Halo because they do not know.

 

If you asked video game players prior to Halo CE whether they preferred being limited to two weapons and grenades as a separate action or cycling through all their weapons they would look at you like you were crazy. Of course they preferred cycling through all their weapons. What a dumb idea to be limited to two weapons! Grenades as a separate action? Like you don't have to cycle to them? Crazy talk. People will tell themselves they enjoy certain settings above others, when the reality as that they simply don't know any better.

 

Is your goal to win a popularity contest or to make a great gametype for Halo 5? You're correctly acknowledging that one of those is an effort in futility, so why sacrifice the other goal for the sake of it?

 

*sigh* I dislike conceding anything to 343 but the alternative is to not have a playlist at all. People like "classic" Halo, not competitive classic Halo; especially when they've been sold on H5 being the most competitive one ever

 

Where are these alternatives you're talking about? Has 343 come out an even acknowledged these settings exist? There are no alternatives right now, but everyone's acting like they need to add radar or not get a playlist. The radar being off is the least alarming change for 343; you're fundamentally altering the sandbox back to a utility-centric game and you're all worried about the radar being off?

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what will make Halo 5 the most balanced, fun, and rewarding experience possible?" If you ask that question, radar being on is not part of the answer 

 

 

Except, it is.

 

Usually I play H5 in my living room with either no headset or the little chat one that came with the xbox. I don't talk to randoms because they're dumb fucks. People are slide boosting and bump fucking the map all over the place. I actually like that the default lists have radar on. I'd love for there to be a super competitive list without radar for when I want to actually try but that's a different story. Most of the time I prefer radar on because most of the time im just trying to relax.

 

I'm going to assume there are more people out there in my situation than there are peopl out there locked away in their hyberbaric Halo chamber with their astros on craving no radar as default.

 

I even prefer radar to be on in our custom lobbies because 3/4 of the time we're playing on a map i've never played and people are just talking, not calling out.

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I think not having the support of the competitive community comes from several factors: (Note: I'm not knocking the tremendous effort you guys have put into this and I'm happy that the more frustrated of you have settings that you enjoy playing, but this is an objective view coming from someone that enjoys aspects of the competitive meta in H5 and can give some feedback on it).

 

1) These settings are not a compromise of current default settings to optimize the competitive merit of the game. Things like Thruster, Stabilize, slide, and GP all have skillful merit and have done plenty to create a movement skillgap that wasn't really present in classic Halo Post-CE outside of very rare circumstances. The only SA that I'm sure you would always get universal approval for it's removal would be Spartan Charge in it's current implementation. There are plenty of options regarding tweaks to the SA pool of abilities in custom options, yet the only one that I'm aware of that has been played with has been thruster. 

 

2) You have fixed problems and issues with the competitive meta while making other things worse. I like how the 4 shot pistol feels in these settings, and sometimes it just feels a little too good in respect to the sandbox. But there are some glaring issues. The sniper comes to mind. Thruster was one of the few checks to the ease of use of the sniper, but now it's gone. Basically the sniper becomes even more powerful than it was in default settings. The plasma pistol can't be thrust dodged either, making it's tracking absolutely ridiculous. Camo is made frustrating to use since you have to throttle your movement with settings that are intended to promote faster movement. The sword is just stupidly OP as well, which removes any and all close range melee weapons from being used and removes an interesting tool used for flag runs. You can't really juke a shotgun or scattershot anymore, etc.

 

3) Testing for dev maps should be paramount, not a second thought. While Halo 5 has an incredible forge and you may have maps that play really well with these settings... Getting a permanent playlist in mm will require you to have the settings work as good on dev maps as they do on forge maps. As I stated in my post on jumps, alot of the maps have been neutered and are even worse in terms of fairness, certain spawn traps are now even more difficult to break out of because you just take too long to get into positions that may help open up the map.

 

I'm sure there's other reasons I can come up with, but this is what I have gathered from several people who have tried the settings and have take issue with aspects of them. BTW, and this is super critical, you'd have a hard time finding people that like competitive default Halo 5 settings and DON'T WANT ANYTHING TO BE CHANGED WHATSOEVER. No radar, reduced strength of autos, weapon placement, mechanics changes, etc. All of these are things myself and others have discussed at length regarding H5G. It's silly to assume that we also don't want the most competitive game possible, but there is backlash from people in the Halo franchise that always want what THEY define to be "Halo." A definition mind you, that is completely subjective to almost every player in the franchise minus a few generalities (equal starts, Golden Triangle, shields, etc.)

The settings are not there to make the most competitive version of H5. There meant to make a version of H5 that actually uses the pillars that were established by the original trilogy. Given that the original trilogy was inherently more skill based and competitive(don't argue this, I don't care. You're wrong) than H5, comp H5 players should support these settings.

 

Unfortunately most comp Halo players are long gone and those who are left are obviously the ones that are ok with what they currently have. Which is why these settings shouldn't be aimed solely at the H5 comp playerbase. 

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Except, it is.

 

Usually I play H5 in my living room with either no headset or the little chat one that came with the xbox. I don't talk to randoms because they're dumb fucks. People are slide boosting and bump fucking the map all over the place. I actually like that the default lists have radar on. I'd love for there to be a super competitive list without radar for when I want to actually try but that's a different story. Most of the time I prefer radar on because most of the time im just trying to relax.

 

I'm going to assume there are more people out there in my situation than there are peopl out there locked away in their hyberbaric Halo chamber with their astros on craving no radar as default.

 

I even prefer radar to be on in our custom lobbies because 3/4 of the time we're playing on a map i've never played and people are just talking, not calling out.

 

Radar is detrimental to the flow of the game, casual or not. It boggles my mind that you can't relax and have fun with radar off, because all it does is make the game more frustrating. An individual with no communication does better when radar is off because they can actually move around the map freely. Corner camping, OP ARs, holding power positions are all made even worse by radar. I don't see how that is somehow better when you're not playing competitively. It's always infuriating. You don't need to be a "tryhard" to appreciate what turning radar off does for the game.

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80 degree FOV, inaudible game sound and no communication doesn't give me enough situational info to enjoy myself.

 

Team comms is your radar. But if you don't have that then there's an info gap.

 

This is why FFA has always had radar.

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I think not having the support of the competitive community comes from several factors: (Note: I'm not knocking the tremendous effort you guys have put into this and I'm happy that the more frustrated of you have settings that you enjoy playing, but this is an objective view coming from someone that enjoys aspects of the competitive meta in H5 and can give some feedback on it).

 

1) These settings are not a compromise of current default settings to optimize the competitive merit of the game. Things like Thruster, Stabilize, slide, and GP all have skillful merit and have done plenty to create a movement skillgap that wasn't really present in classic Halo Post-CE outside of very rare circumstances. The only SA that I'm sure you would always get universal approval for it's removal would be Spartan Charge in it's current implementation. There are plenty of options regarding tweaks to the SA pool of abilities in custom options, yet the only one that I'm aware of that has been played with has been thruster.

 

2) You have fixed problems and issues with the competitive meta while making other things worse. I like how the 4 shot pistol feels in these settings, and sometimes it just feels a little too good in respect to the sandbox. But there are some glaring issues. The sniper comes to mind. Thruster was one of the few checks to the ease of use of the sniper, but now it's gone. Basically the sniper becomes even more powerful than it was in default settings. The plasma pistol can't be thrust dodged either, making it's tracking absolutely ridiculous. Camo is made frustrating to use since you have to throttle your movement with settings that are intended to promote faster movement. The sword is just stupidly OP as well, which removes any and all close range melee weapons from being used and removes an interesting tool used for flag runs. You can't really juke a shotgun or scattershot anymore, etc.

 

3) Testing for dev maps should be paramount, not a second thought. While Halo 5 has an incredible forge and you may have maps that play really well with these settings... Getting a permanent playlist in mm will require you to have the settings work as good on dev maps as they do on forge maps. As I stated in my post on jumps, alot of the maps have been neutered and are even worse in terms of fairness, certain spawn traps are now even more difficult to break out of because you just take too long to get into positions that may help open up the map.

 

I'm sure there's other reasons I can come up with, but this is what I have gathered from several people who have tried the settings and have take issue with aspects of them. BTW, and this is super critical, you'd have a hard time finding people that like competitive default Halo 5 settings and DON'T WANT ANYTHING TO BE CHANGED WHATSOEVER. No radar, reduced strength of autos, weapon placement, mechanics changes, etc. All of these are things myself and others have discussed at length regarding H5G. It's silly to assume that we also don't want the most competitive game possible, but there is backlash from people in the Halo franchise that always want what THEY define to be "Halo." A definition mind you, that is completely subjective to almost every player in the franchise minus a few generalities (equal starts, Golden Triangle, shields, etc.)

I will say that I certainly appreciate your feedback and how you have kept it professional, opposing viewpoints or not.

 

Adherence to fundamental Golden Triangle is of the utmost importance in these settings.

 

And currently, to argue against your first point, none of the Spartan Abilities effectively support that. Or at least any of the custom game options for them.

 

Thrust could be a cool sidestep/air control mechanic, but it still makes it too easy to juke shots by disabling any form of aim assistance, and restricts you from shooting, interfering with the Golden Triangle.

 

Ground Pound still has that horrible in-air melee delay, and you can't adjust the impact radius, target travel radius, or recovery time.

 

Stabilizers are too limited to zooming in, and otherwise doesn't really much aside from increased hang time.

 

Slide is only really useful in combination with Thrust, and can't be used when Sprint is disabled.

 

Spartan Charge is agreeably dumb, not really doing anything but being frustrating to get hit by, and although it can be disabled on its own, it too, like Slide, requires Sprint to be able to use it.

 

Sprint is completely replaced by the increased movement speed. It also doesn't allow you to shoot, interfering with the Golden Triangle.

 

Clamber interferes with the Golden Triangle by not allowing you to shoot while doing so, and also is limited to only what is in front of you. Increased jump height in combination with the return of Grenade-jumping mostly replaces it.

 

 

 

For your second point, some of those are issues that we hope are patched, such as the Camo issue, but is still usable. The Sniper is usually said to nerfed on Evolved settings, because of the increased speed of strafing and the increased pressure the 4sk Magnum provides. The ADS lunge range boost is agreeably stupid on the Sword, but you can still bulltrue it, and the Shotgun and Scattershot are easily stopped as long as you see them coming. The Plasma Pistol and Needler have OP tracking, but once again the 4sk Magnum keeps them at bay and it is easy to make the shots track into cover. Rockets, especially SPNKR, are much easier to dodge naturally as well. I would not say that Thruster is the only check.

 

 

 

For your final third point, all maps can still be navigated via Crouch-jumping, and where a Crouch-jump can't quite reach, a Grenade-jump will reach it.

 

The default maps arguably actually have more structure to their map flow and is therefore more predictable, and power positions are actually more worth controlling. All of that greatly reduces the obnoxious swiss cheese effect on H5 maps, since you can't just Thrust-Clamber to anywhere you want.

 

The Golden Triangle is supported very well in Evolved settings.

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This is why FFA has always had radar.

 

FFA has radar to avoid the randomness of 8 independent teams all trying to slay; you want to test who the best player is, not who got the best/worst spawns or luckiest breaks. When there's only 2 teams, regardless of communication, the game flow is much more controlled and predictable. Radar does not give you situational awareness, it literally tells you where players are and punishes movement. That's not a good thing for any team-based game.

 

Plus Halo 5 literally has NPC players calling out the enemy team.

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Thrust could be a cool sidestep/air control mechanic, but it still makes it too easy to juke shots by disabling any form of aim assistance, and restricts you from shooting, interfering with the Golden Triangle.

Pretty sure it doesn't do that.

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Pretty sure it doesn't do that.

Doesn't it disable Red Reticule? That is basically my point. If not then I am just mistaken.

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Doesn't it disable Red Reticule? That is basically my point. If not then I am just mistaken.

it really doesn't, hence why thrust shooting is a thing. 

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it really doesn't, hence why thrust shooting is a thing.

Doesn't he mean the opposite, as in, the red reticle targeted on an opponent disappears if the opponent uses Thrust? The other way would make his point seem ineffectual, if not self defeating.
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Doesn't he mean the opposite, as in, the red reticle targeted on an opponent disappears if the opponent uses Thrust? The other way would make his point seem ineffectual, if not self defeating.

Yeah thats what I mean.

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if anyone's doing customs tonight, I finally have a quiet house + ability to use a mic ... I'm in the TB company (easier to invite me from there probably)

 

GT: valaea

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