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Rank All Halo Multiplayer Experiences on 1-10 Scale

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I disagree that these are facts.

They are facts in the context of objective competitive merit/gameplay depth.

 

Fun is subjective. The things I'm talking about are not.

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I disagree that these are facts. I think it's a fact that CE has the steepest learning curve yes, but his criticisms of maps, movement and the pistol's strength are firmly in the realm of subjective opinion. A case can be made that CE has bad movement with jump delay and stuff like that, and also that the pistol should be a 4sk. Maps are almost completely subjective though he is factually wrong if you take his statement literally that no thought was put into them since Hardy has talked about their design before.

I had a very detailed post about how I think that most of those things he talked about were not actually subjective, but I closed the damn tab. So salty right now.

 

Most importantly, I had an issue with him saying the pistol is "too OP" though. He can subjectively not like the CE pistol but using the term "overpowered" simply is not correct (it is never truly the optimal gun for any situation). Maybe he thinks that it is too "adequately powered." That is a trait of the pistol he could subjectively not enjoy. 

 

Regardless, Swan clearly has only played CE on a very casual level, if at all. Surely not enough to form a valid argument about most of the things he is discussing anyways.

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I disagree that these are facts. I think it's a fact that CE has the steepest learning curve yes, but his criticisms of maps, movement and the pistol's strength are firmly in the realm of subjective opinion. A case can be made that CE has bad movement with jump delay and stuff like that, and also that the pistol should be a 4sk. Maps are almost completely subjective though he is factually wrong if you take his statement literally that no thought was put into them since Hardy has talked about their design before.

 

I was agreeing with most of what you are saying here, but map design is not subjective.

 

I had a very detailed post abut how I think that most of those things he talked about were not actually subjective, but I closed the damn tab. So salty right now.

 

Most importantly, I had an issue with him saying the pistol is "too OP" though. He can subjectively not like the CE pistol but using the term "overpowered" simply is not correct (it is never truly the optimal gun for any situation). Maybe he thinks that it is too "adequately powered." That is a trait of the pistol he could subjectively not enjoy. 

 

Regardless, Swan clearly has only played CE on a very casual level, if at all. Surely not enough to form a valid opinion/argument about most of the things he is discussing anyways. 

 

I don't think it's fair to say that the Pistol being overpowered is an objective fact. I think it's a good debate to have, whether or not having a strong utility weapon is competitively viable in an arena shooter. I think the game's longevity and lasting skill gap is evidence that CE's sandbox can stand the test of time with meta still evolving after 15+ years.

 

EDIT: Yes, it's an objective fact that the pistol is more useful than most other guns in the sandbox. Does this make the sandbox unbalanced? Not necessarily. I think a lot of people think balance means that if one gun does more damage, it needs less accuracy, and vice versa. In a setting where all players start with the pistol, I think that argument goes out the window because only under rare circumstances will a player not have a pistol at his disposal anyway. And in that case the player should be punished, especially when it comes to swapping out your pistol in favor of a gun that allows you to quick-camo. It's an element of the meta that involves taking a risk and being punished if you made the wrong decision. I'll take metagame depth of a perfectly boring balanced sandbox any day.

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Regardless, Swan clearly has only played CE on a very casual level, if at all. Surely not enough to form a valid argument about most of the things he is discussing anyways.

I don't think you need to play CE at all to understand why it is objectivley superior to every other halo game in an objective competitive merit/gameplay depth context.

 

You just need to think logically about the gameplay mechanics. No play time is necessary at all for that- similar to how I haven't played/spectated any h5 at all, but still know it has hardly any depth/competitive merit. All I needed to do was think logically about the mechanics.

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I don't think you need to play CE at all to understand why it is objectivley superior to every other halo game in an objective competitive merit/gameplay depth context.

 

You just need to think logically about the gameplay mechanics. No play time is necessary at all for that- similar to how I haven't played/spectated any h5 at all, but still know it has hardly any depth/competitive merit. All I needed to do was think logically about the mechanics.

 

I agree with what you are saying, but I guess it would be better for me to say that I think he is simply ignorant about what CE is in the first place. He simply does no know enough about how the game works.

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Halo CE = 9*

Halo 2 = 8

Halo 3 = 3

Halo Reach = 4

Halo 4 = 4

Halo 5 = 8

 

*only reason I didn't make this a 10 is because I think there were a few issues with controls they could have smoothed out more, especially crouching and crouch jumping onto objects. Also, map geometry was horrible in some cases, i.e., Battle Creek's rocks and the rock bridge to go to rockets...just wish there was more consistency with making map movement smoother.

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Guys, I think you are trying to argue that overwhelming majority opinion is fact when it comes to art, but that is not true because everyone enjoys different things. Like something almost everyone agrees on that adds competitive depth and excitement to the game is good offensive pace and map movement, in CE's case promoted by a strong utility weapon, strong grenades (to flush out campers) and static timers on power weapons. It sounds like you're trying to argue that these things are objectively proven to be superior when they're not. Some people enjoy slower, more plodding competitive play with less aim skill and more teamshot, especially a lot of Halo 2 fans who actually enjoy the stalemates seen in maps like Lockout and Sanctuary resulting in an explosive conclusion. As a CE fan I don't agree with this at all, obviously, but you cannot argue they are wrong for enjoying this. I can see the merit in it. Some of those games were fucking intense back in the day. Even last year in H2A there were some seriously intense matches involving Noble Black and CLG.

 

So I already covered there why I think map enjoyment is completely subjective. You can argue a map is well designed for a certain play style, for sure, but some will take issue with it. I know some people think Damnation is too slow, some think Hang Em High is too random with the random spawns, etc. I think Chill Out is probably the closest you could say to being is "objectively" great as I can't think of a single flaw with it... but again I'm sure there are some people who think it plays too fast.

Moving on to the pistol, I could definitely see an argument for why people think its too OP. Some people don't want to die so fast. Quake for instance has some really drawn out chesslike duels. Or they think the other weapons in the sandbox don't get used enough. I don't think there's anything wrong with thinking that... it's just their opinion. I will argue that it's fine the way it is and explain why, but I will not state that they are factually incorrect.

The movement, again you have jump delay and other glitches, and the movement speed is pretty slow compared to PC shooters. I think it's hard to argue with that. Now I think that is good design for a console FPS using a hard to aim joystick, but many PC players will just scoff and say every game should be played with a mouse/kb so that opinion is "objectively" wrong (even though a lot of us play Halo 1 because we just prefer controllers and there's no rhyme or reason to that besides maybe because we grew up on them).

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Some people enjoy slower, more plodding competitive play with less aim skill and more teamshot, especially a lot of Halo 2 fans who actually enjoy the stalemates seen in maps like Lockout and Sanctuary resulting in an explosive conclusion.

We aren't talking about personal enjoyment here.

 

This competitive merit/gameplay depth angle being discussed is 100% objective and has absolutely nothing to do with personal enjoyment.

 

CE surpasses every other halo game in this objective respect- this is fact.

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We aren't talking about personal enjoyment here.

 

This competitive merit/gameplay depth angle being discussed is 100% objective and has absolutely nothing to do with personal enjoyment.

 

CE surpasses every other halo game in this objective respect- this is fact.

 

Except different people have different opinions about what takes more skill. Some people opine that button combos take more skill, that holding a monopoly on power weapons is a skill, that getting multiple shooters on one for effective teamshot is a team based skill, that the spawn manipulation in Halo 2 takes more skill, etc. I'm not sure how you can objectively claim they take less skill. I agree with you that I think CE takes more skill but again I find it difficult to say this is a fact. Maybe someone is terrible at performing button combos so they think being able to consistently pull double or quad shots is an amazing skill.

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average of all votes in thread (updated)

 
H1: 8.9
H2 post-patch: 7.9
H3 post-patch: 7.2
Reach (vanilla): 3.7
Reach MLG v7: 6.3
H4 post-patch: 3.6
H5: 6.7

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average of all votes in thread (updated)

 
H1: 8.9
H2 post-patch: 7.9
H3 post-patch: 7.2
Reach (vanilla): 3.7
Reach MLG v7: 6.3
H4 post-patch: 3.6
H5: 6.7

 

 

The competitive community has spoken, @@Sal1ent! Take note :)

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You just need to think logically about the gameplay mechanics. No play time is necessary at all for that- similar to how I haven't played/spectated any h5 at all, but still know it has hardly any depth/competitive merit. All I needed to do was think logically about the mechanics.

Well that's 100% false.

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The competitive community has spoken, Sal1ent! Take note :)

 

I have given up on that. If there is to ever be a sequel or spiritual sequel to CE it will have to be made by the community by way of indie title. 

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Except different people have different opinions about what takes more skill.

I think what you mean to say is that different people have different definitions of the word, "skill." Ditto with "competitive."

 

The objective aspect of room for meta evolution, which is not subjective, is greater in H1 than in any other halo game. CE factually has more depth than any other halo game- the subjective definitions of buzzwords have no place in this discussion.

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Well that's 100% false.

 

Not necessarily. The enjoyment of a game is subjective, sure, but you could surely pinpoint objectively better/worse game mechanics/design. This is not a philosophy&logic forum however, so there is no point in getting into that. (if you were talking in regards to h5, then nvm, I was speaking in general)

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Not necessarily. The enjoyment of a game is subjective, sure, but you could surely pinpoint objectively better/worse game mechanics/design. This is not a philosophy&logic forum however, so there is no point in getting into that. (if you were talking in regards to h5, then nvm, I was speaking in general)

I was referring to his statement that H5 has barely any competitive merit/depth. 

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Well that's 100% false.

If you had never played a halo game in your life, and someone explained, in painstaking detail, the mechanics of the game, the quantifiable variables coded into the game for things like melee lunge, bullet magnetism, etc... explained each map's design and corresponding power item layout, and everything else such that you were able to mentally digest it, and you didn't arrive at the conclusion that CE has more objective depth/competitive merit than any other Halo game, you either:

 

1. Don't properly understand

2. Are not thinking logically

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If you had never played a halo game in your life, and someone explained, in painstaking detail, the mechanics of the game, the quantifiable variables coded into the game for things like melee lunge, bullet magnetism, etc... explained each map's design and corresponding power item layout, and everything else such that you were able to mentally digest it, and you didn't arrive at the conclusion that CE has more objective depth/competitive merit than any other Halo game, you either:

 

1. Don't properly understand

2. Are not thinking logically

 

 

What if someone pointed out how large the impact host advantage has on the game or how a team can win or lose a game based on spawns, which are completely random when both players on a team are dead? Do you feel your two conclusions are still valid?

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What if someone pointed out how large the impact host advantage has on the game or how a team can win or lose a game based on spawns, which are completely random when both players on a team are dead? Do you feel your two conclusions are still valid?

Yes. Those shortcomings are, objectively speaking, null in comparison the with the net gains of CE vs every other Halo game.

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If you had never played a halo game in your life, and someone explained, in painstaking detail, the mechanics of the game, the quantifiable variables coded into the game for things like melee lunge, bullet magnetism, etc... explained each map's design and corresponding power item layout, and everything else such that you were able to mentally digest it, and you didn't arrive at the conclusion that CE has more objective depth/competitive merit than any other Halo game, you either:

 

1. Don't properly understand

2. Are not thinking logically

I wasn't referring to what you said regarding CE*.

 

I was disputing your claim that H5 had barely any depth/competitive merit.

 

 

*On the topic though I think that depth is too nebulous of a term to definitively state which Halo has the most. As for competitive merit, I also think that's somewhat dependant on how you define the term. For example how you factor in the importance of team work versus individual skill etc. That said CE is clearly a very competitive game and I personally agree that's it's probably the most competitive.

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Again nobody is disagreeing with you here that Halo 1 is the deepest, but I think we should be careful in criticizing someone who believes otherwise. It is very difficult to definitively say one game is deeper than another. Is this deepness scientifically measureable? If it's not, then no it is not a objective fact. It's just a very widely held opinion backed by well discussed game design philosophy.

 

 

You also have completely ignored the fact that the only really deep mode is 2v2 slayer. Objective gametypes are very rarely played, 4v4 is very rarely played (due to map sizes and spawns). A lot of people will say Halo 2 has more competitive merit because they think objective gametypes are deeper.

 

And Cujjer is right about the random spawns at the start fucking you badly sometimes, as well as host advantage making a significant impact. These things aren't negligible. Host decides outcomes.

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Is this deepness scientifically measureable?

It is mathematically measurable that CE offers the greatest amount of room for meta evolution relative to every other halo game.

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It is mathematically measurable that CE offers the greatest amount of room for meta evolution relative to every other halo game.

 

Show me your proof then.

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