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CyReN

Halo World Championship 2016 Teams, Seeds, and Discussion‏

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Also to note, Chig was the main sniper on that squad. So he held back a lot more which obv caused him to die less than everyone else.

That's just 1 example.

I always thought of Mikwen as the main sniper on that Denial squad, but that could just be because of the flashy plays. Didn't they also have a thing where Chig would pick up sniper on Slayer, and Mikwen for OBJ? Or maybe it was flipped? 

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stats only say so much.  so many important variables not shown.  Ex: player tendencies, weapon distribution, strength of opponent, stats in more important series vs whole tournament, communication, etc.  also obj time almost shouldn't even be considered on a stat spread as it is 1 game per series and doesn't represent objective done in flag or bomb games clearly.  add to that the fact that most hill/ball games are setup games and the person who gets the time is often just whoever is closest during time of setup, and is often actually more protected than those not in the hill/with ball.  the amount of scrap time vs setup time is actually such a smaller portion.  stats are interesting and definitely tell a story but it's more so the story of how a team operates, unless there is an obvious extreme difference.  just informing the close-minded :)

 

Stats are like the numbers in a connect-the-dot.

 

Sure, if you put them all together, you'll get a vague outline... but if you take JUST that, it's a pretty shitty picture.

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Stats only tell part of the story. It's just like Ogre2.

 

Intangibles, Team Chemistry, Roles, etc all play a part as well.

 

Also to note, Chig was the main sniper on that squad. So he held back a lot more which obv caused him to die less than everyone else.

That's just 1 example.

 

Stats are great, but never rely solely on them to distinguish who's better than who.

Yeah Mikwen was 100% the main sniper for that team, I think the reason he has least deaths is because everyone else on his team are hyper-aggressive and so it was more of a case of his teammates dying more than him dying less

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Also, for a CS:GO reference, Heinz was an entry fragger for his team while Chig was a re-fragger(?) or something. Both equally important one is just always going to have better stats than the other.

 

Wouldn't APG be the Entry fragger, since he's the one always holding forward and drawing aggro?

 

(Admittedly, I'm not COMPLETELY familiar with how competitive CSGO works, but I imagined Entry Fragger was essentially the tank of the team.)

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Yeah Mikwen was 100% the main sniper for that team, I think the reason he has least deaths is because everyone else on his team are hyper-aggressive and so it was more of a case of his teammates dying more than him dying less

Uhh no. Chig was the designated sniper for the majority of Season 2. Towards the end they started to give Mikwen the sniper at the start, but even then it was evenly split between Chig/Mikwen.

 

Mikwen is the flashier and arguably better sniper, but Chig was the initial (main) sniper for Denial.

 

I think they gave Chig the sniper to start games is because Mikwen is a more aggressive player and wants to push out to start games. But they didn't want the sniper to push out to start games because it is much more a risky style that Denial didnt want.

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Uhh no. Chig was the designated sniper for the majority of Season 2. Towards the end they started to give Mikwen the sniper at the start, but even then it was evenly split between Chig/Mikwen.

 

Mikwen is the flashier and arguably better sniper, but Chig was the initial (main) sniper for Denial.

 

I think they gave Chig the sniper to start games is because Mikwen is a more aggressive player and wants to push out to start games. But they didn't want the sniper to push out to start games because it is much more a risky style that Denial didnt want.

I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one

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I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one

 

Chad's right -- Denial consistently gave Chig first Sniper on Shrine in Season 2, because Mikwen would push with it and risk losing it.

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For any other pro team and top am team who may see this; I'm looking to coach for this upcoming season, instead of trying to compete myself. If you're in need of a very serious option, please consider hearing what i have to say and got to offer. Just hit me back and ill dm you.   

@Mods; If i'm not allowed to keep bumping my post, please let me know and i'll stop. Thanks.

 

@@OGRE2 Would you PLEASE check your DM's and give what i just sent you a read. I'd really appreciate any kind of reply. 

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Interesting stats from that CLG/TL series, thanks for posting them.

 

Also I think we should definitely be separating the breakout stats from the other gametypes. CoD does the same thing with SnD and its very interesting to see how players differ between the two. Take Nadeshot for example, many would say he was a mid to low tier Pro player on non-SnD gametypes, but was a top tier Pro on SnD.

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~Snip~

 

That's great and all, but what is the point of Chad's metrics if not to give a representation of the player's performance? Otherwise, what he is doing is completely pointless because we can't get any information from it. 

 

The follow up question would how do we quantify the performance of a player in a tournament? Yeah, there are always things that are going to be impossible to account for, but overall there should be a way to indicate which player did better or worse than another player. That is the entire point of looking at the numbers. 

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That's great and all, but what are the point of Chad's metrics if not to give a representation of the player's performance? Otherwise, what he is doing is completely pointless because we can't get any information from it. 

 

The follow up question would how do we quantify the performance of a player in a tournament? Yeah, there are always things that are going to be impossible to account for, but overall there should be a way to indicate which player did better or worse than another player. That is the entire point of looking at the numbers. 

 

I'll have games I'm doing NOTHING where I go positive 30, the next game I got -5 and I'm making some genius plays. Anyone who's played Halo enough at a decently high level can say the same. 

 

Stats aren't everything.

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That's great and all, but what is the point of Chad's metrics if not to give a representation of the player's performance? Otherwise, what he is doing is completely pointless because we can't get any information from it. 

 

The follow up question would how do we quantify the performance of a player in a tournament? Yeah, there are always things that are going to be impossible to account for, but overall there should be a way to indicate which player did better or worse than another player. That is the entire point of looking at the numbers. 

 

Numbers aren't going to tell you good or bad, there are intangibles at play that will determine that and cannot be quantified. The numbers are there to give you an 'idea' of what's going on and shouldn't completely influence your opinion on how well the player did. 

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I've had tournaments where I've gone mass negative and never played better Halo and won way more games. Then on the other side I've had tournaments my stats were incredible and my team didn't do well at all.. Same thing online - I'll have games I'm doing NOTHING where I go positive 30, the next game I got -5 and I'm making some genius plays. Anyone who's played Halo enough at a decently high level can say the same. 

 

Stats aren't everything.

 

So anecdotal evidence is fact now?

 

Do you even read what I type? I openly admit that statistics cannot account for all the variables. However, it should account for enough to determine the general quality of a player's performance. If it doesn't, then we are simply looking at the wrong statistics.

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Numbers aren't going to tell you good or bad, there are intangibles at play that will determine that and cannot be quantified. The numbers are there to give you an 'idea' of what's going on and shouldn't completely influence your opinion on how well the player did. 

 

Once again, I say that in my post. It's not a 50/50 battle like you're making it out to be. Stats should dominate over the intangibles. Otherwise, what Chad is doing is pointless.

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That's great and all, but what is the point of Chad's metrics if not to give a representation of the player's performance? Otherwise, what he is doing is completely pointless because we can't get any information from it. 

 

The follow up question would how do we quantify the performance of a player in a tournament? Yeah, there are always things that are going to be impossible to account for, but overall there should be a way to indicate which player did better or worse than another player. That is the entire point of looking at the numbers. 

We could always do with more and better stats (damage output is probably the major one missing at the moment) but essentially you can use the numbers alongside the context of the match/team. If you look at KDA equally at face value it can only tell you so much; consider the difference in expectation from a main slayer that is gifted all the power-ups/power-weapons/most advantageous positions verses an aggressive point man that is used to lead the pushes, create the engagements and draw in fire moving through relatively weaker positions.

 

The only real way that stats become relevant is when you have a wealth of previous data to go off. Then you'll start to see the differences of players deviating within the average of their 'role' (very loose term for Halo obviously) and can start to ask why.

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That's great and all, but what is the point of Chad's metrics if not to give a representation of the player's performance? Otherwise, what he is doing is completely pointless because we can't get any information from it. 

 

The follow up question would how do we quantify the performance of a player in a tournament? Yeah, there are always things that are going to be impossible to account for, but overall there should be a way to indicate which player did better or worse than another player. That is the entire point of looking at the numbers. 

 

His point is that numbers without context are really bad to use for the sake of argument.

 

Ogre 2 was statistically/numerically the weakest player on his team at HCS Season 2 Finals... but only among Kill/Death/Assists/objective time stats tracked.  It ignores how often he stopped a push with a well-placed grenade, or how often he threw his body in front of a player to stop them from stopping his team's flag carrier / bomb carrier.  It ignores how often he was holding portals / a base on Warlord KotH/Oddball and just putting 2 shots in a player as they ran across or turned to focus him first.

 

Heinz vs Chig, Chig was statistically better than Heinz, but it disregards playstyles or how often Heinz was making aggressive plays or putting himself on the front line, while Chig either played back or filled in a secondary role.

 

It disregards what kills came with what weapon (something I'm trying to track in H5, but can't do well without someone to help me with the API stuff) -- which is a similar problem League of Legends fans have in determining things based off stats -- they look at kills or gold accumulated, but don't take into account Priority.

 

Priority is basically how much help they get from the team, either in terms of the jungler ganking, wards placed around their lane so they know when someone is coming to gank them, or when a massive side lane minion wave is built up, who gets sent to deal with it.  Different teams give priority to different positions, and it skews stats.

 

In Halo, we can look at Priority in terms of 

  1. Who gets the power weapons / power-ups?  (Among players labeled "support", Heinz actually is fairly high priority historically, because he tends to get rockets or Grenade Launcher-type weapons often.  Generally though, the highest priority player in this category is the person who takes first Sniper.)
  2. Who gets the responses to call-outs first, when call-outs are made at the same time? (Usually volume = priority here.  Spartan/Ninja :D)
  3. Who goes first? (When going for an objective or collapsing on kills, who's the first one in?  This is the low priority player.  The one who sits back or watches escape angles / alternate routes / locks down an area is the higher priority player in terms of KD / lower in terms of Objective stats.)
  4. Who actually gets to sit in power positions? (Kind of overlapping with #3, but the person who's given the ability to lock down power areas of the map while the teammates roam is the higher priority player.

 

There's still a lot of things we can't track with numerical statistics beyond priority, but it's just one example of how numbers won't give you a clear enough picture of the game.

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False actually, Austin got it at the beginning of two of the three gametypes on Shrine. I shot it to myself on Lockdown. But Austin would pick it up and we would leave it for Austin more during the game. 

So enough discussion got my interest peaked to go back and watch.

Chig is right.

 

Mikwen got the sniper first 4 times. Chig got the sniper first 2 times. The opponent got the sniper first on Lockdown 3 times.

 

But, this was a strategy change from the first 2 events of the season. Chig was getting the initial sniper more often at Atlanta and Indy.

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~Snip~

 

I understand that. However, if numbers can't give us a clear enough picture of the game then we aren't doing a good enough job analyzing/tracking them.

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