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Halo 5: Guardians eSports/Arena Weapon Starts Poll

Arena Starting Weapons (constructive post gamescom thread)  

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  1. 1. Exports/Arena Starting Weapon Choices

    • Pistol + AR
    • Pistol + AR (AR nerfed)
    • Pistol + AR (Pistol patched to 4SK)
    • BR + Pistol
    • BR only
    • BR + AR
    • BR + AR (AR nerfed)
    • DMR Only / With AR (Is it viable over any of the above?)
    • Pistol Only


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What is % headshot kills for each weapon?   (headshots/kills)

 

Or another way to evaluate this is do a ballpark average ttk for each weapon.  It will be ballpark because not every kill is unassisted (probably more skewed by better teams). 

 

Average weapon ttk = [(headshot kills)*(weapon headshot ttk) + (non-headshot kills)*(weapon non-headshot ttk)] / [total weapon kills]

 

Good idea, sadly I don't have enough time atm to do this, but if you would do it yourself and share the results I would be very thankful.

 

The fact we finally have good stats to work with should mean that we stop speaking in opinions when we can just use facts instead.

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I find the pistol very easy to pop shields with, but hard to finish kills with. Where the BR/DMR seem easy the whole way through, this, plus knowing what distance you can use the pistol at (not cross-mapping often) would lead to even hit percentages for each weapon. Starting with the Pistol also helps it's cause; because players are more adept at it than any of the rifles due to more practice, often I'll pick up a DMR and if its been a while miss some easy shots just because I'm not use to the feel of it, even if it is technically easier.

 

There is no doubt the BR and DMR have larger hitboxes in my mind

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I understand that the BR has positive aspects over single shot weapons. However, the positives don't outweigh the negatives in relation to single shot weapons. As you said, you do have to land all your shots to get a perfect kill. However, the problem with that is you can still deal a minimum of 33% damage. So even if you are just flailing your reticle over someone you can deal between 33-100 damage. With a single shot weapon it's hit or miss. If you don't press the trigger at the exact moment you are on someone you do no damage. This may seem minor but it's a huge deal especially in dealing with getting shot by multiple people and especially while you are one shot. There will always be more skill involved when you have to land that final headshot with a single fire weapon. The BR has 3x the chance of dealing damage as well as 3x the chance of killing a one shot opponent. Btw comparing the DMR and BR in Halo 4 is not a viable comparison because the DMR had different aim assist and RRR numbers than the BR.

i dont actually disagree with you im just pointing out that there are other factors that come into play besides single or burst fire....but eUen though a burst fire weapon like the br is generally easier to use its still much harder and has a much bigger skill gap than something like the ar which is fully automatic and has suprisingly long range...if people were arguing for pistols only i probably wouldnt say anything...but the inclusion of the ar rather than the br as a primary is my main issue....pistol is still present in both loadouts...so again i dont see the problem with loadout rotation especially if they buff the pistol to a 4 shot kill...alot of people would still use the pistol eUen if the br was primary in that scenario

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We tried to go with the accessibility route with h4 and it ended up being awful.

 

The only successful tournament reach had was when bloom and sprint were removed.

no no your missing my point im saying that halo 4 made the game to accessible and to easy for a variety of reasons which is why it didnt work....they just over did it and the same thing can happen if you make a game to difficult...you have to have a middle ground...i do think halo should lean more towards competitive settings but to have a game thats just hardcore and nothing else will alienate to many people...you cant grow that way

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I find the pistol very easy to pop shields with, but hard to finish kills with. Where the BR/DMR seem easy the whole way through, this, plus knowing what distance you can use the pistol at (not cross-mapping often) would lead to even hit percentages for each weapon. Starting with the Pistol also helps it's cause; because players are more adept at it than any of the rifles due to more practice, often I'll pick up a DMR and if its been a while miss some easy shots just because I'm not use to the feel of it, even if it is technically easier.

 

There is no doubt the BR and DMR have larger hitboxes in my mind

i dont know about the hitboxes but it does feel like they haUe higher aim assist...the sniper definetly feels like it has a bigger hit box though...sometimes ill land headshots with it that look a just a little ridiculous

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to have a game thats just hardcore and nothing else will alienate to many people

That's what we thought about reach before MLG's ZBNS tournament, but then we had more teams and streamers than any reach tournament preceding it.

 

Anyway, this game does not deserve to grow in its current state. It's awful, and I hope it fails harder than h4 so that 343 thinks, "Wow, we really need to approach halo 6's game design in a completely different way if we want a respectable product life cycle."

 

Furthermore, the only way I will be playing this game is if settings which play nothing like h5 default are easily available. Unlike many of the "#DontBuyH5" posers that caved, I still have not purchased, played, or streamed this game. I don't need to in order to understand the impact that the combination of sprint, thrust, and kill times greater than one second have on gameplay.

 

I have no plans of supporting this game in any way until a gameplay experience worthy of my time is available. This will require heavy modification of the default settings.

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Good idea, sadly I don't have enough time atm to do this, but if you would do it yourself and share the results I would be very thankful.

 

The fact we finally have good stats to work with should mean that we stop speaking in opinions when we can just use facts instead.

 

I did some looks at it with stats from you, me, ogre2, and snipedown.  Unfortunately the weapon breakdown is not by playlist, so if you play a non-negligible amount of swat/ffa/breakout then it pollutes the numbers. In this regard, Ogre 2's seems the least influenced by this as he has negligible games in these other playlists. For the shots landed per kill and shots fired per kill stats for the BR I divided the number by 3 to represent the number of bursts per kill as shots counts the individual bullets.  If I had a number for the time/shot for each weapon I could translate these into average kill times for shots landed and shots fired metrics.

 

 

Du63mO0.png

 

 

I would say based on the headshot % and the shots landed/kill and shots fired/kill it looks to me that BR is far easier to kill with than the pistol, but hard to say conclusively based on the limited data and missing timing numbers.

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Do people really think a 4sk pistol wouldn't be OP as hell?

 

If the RoF was kept the same it would be, but there is no way in hell they give us a 4sk pistol without slowing it down a bit. Even if it keeps the same kill time, 3 kills per clip would be great for the game IMO.

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That's what we thought about reach before MLG's ZBNS tournament, but then we had more teams and streamers than any reach tournament preceding it.

 

Anyway, this game does not deserve to grow in its current state. It's awful, and I hope it fails harder than h4 so that 343 thinks, "Wow, we really need to approach halo 6's game design in a completely different way if we want a respectable product life cycle."

 

Furthermore, the only way I will be playing this game is if settings which play nothing like h5 default are easily available. Unlike many of the "#DontBuyH5" posers that caved, I still have not purchased, played, or streamed this game. I don't need to in order to understand the impact that the combination of sprint, thrust, and kill times greater than one second have on gameplay.

 

I have no plans of supporting this game in any way until a gameplay experience worthy of my time is available. This will require heavy modification of the default settings.

*Trashes game and says how horrible it is*

*Hasn't even played it*

smfh

 

People like you are what make the casuals dislike the competitive scene. Adapt or die. This is the direction Halo has decided to take. Will 343i suffer from your selfish vendetta? Nope. Get over yourself or stop complaining.

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That's what we thought about reach before MLG's ZBNS tournament, but then we had more teams and streamers than any reach tournament preceding it.

 

Anyway, this game does not deserve to grow in its current state. It's awful, and I hope it fails harder than h4 so that 343 thinks, "Wow, we really need to approach halo 6's game design in a completely different way if we want a respectable product life cycle."

 

Furthermore, the only way I will be playing this game is if settings which play nothing like h5 default are easily available. Unlike many of the "#DontBuyH5" posers that caved, I still have not purchased, played, or streamed this game. I don't need to in order to understand the impact that the combination of sprint, thrust, and kill times greater than one second have on gameplay.

 

I have no plans of supporting this game in any way until a gameplay experience worthy of my time is available. This will require heavy modification of the default settings.

well im sorry to hear that i hope you find a game you feel worth playing...backwards compatibilty is coming soon

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*Trashes game and says how horrible it is*

*Hasn't even played it*

smfh.

Like I said, you don't need to play/spectate the game to understand the objective impact certain mechanics have on gameplay.

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Do people really think a 4sk pistol wouldn't be OP as hell?

It wouldn't be that bad. The SMG would still kill faster, the AR would kill at approximately the same rate. I don't know the other autos' times off the top of my head. The only thing that would truly be hurt are the rifles. Even then, the BR has bleedthrough, and the DMR has cross-map aim assist that the Magnum does not.

That's not to say the Magnum couldn't do with slightly lower aim assist.

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Like I said, you don't need to play/spectate the game to understand the objective impact certain mechanics have on gameplay.

You need to play a game before you can have an opinion on whether it's truly "awful" or not. You can't simply judge it based on mechanics that you yourself have not tried.

 

For instance, as much shit as I give Halo 3, I still believe that it's a good game. The multiplayer may be a mess, but ultimately, it's very fun to play. If I only watched Halo 3 game-play and formed my opinion on that, I'd be calling it a flaming turd.

 

Halo 5 may have problems, but the existence of them do not outright make it "awful". If you're going to make claims about the game without having any experience, at least be more like Lemon. He may criticize the game's mechanics, but he isn't making statements about it like you are.

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You need to play a game before you can have an opinion on whether it's truly "awful" or not. You can't simply judge it based on mechanics that you yourself have tried.

H5's defensive movement options are nothing new.

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So I'm not judging the game based on mechanics I haven't tried, as you were trying to argue earlier.

I mean, look at your own logic.

 

Let's assume you've never played a Halo game in your life. You play Battlefield and you see that it has jumping, which for the most part, is fairly useless. Someone tells you that Halo also has jumping, but because Battlefield has a jumping mechanic that's useless, your logic dictates that Halo's jumping must also be useless.

 

If I took Halo Reach's Sprint and Halo 4's Thruster and welded them together, what I'd end up with is something completely different from the two in Halo 5. Put it simply, you can't look at the effects of a mechanic in one game and directly transfer that experience to another. The fact that a mechanic exists means nothing, it's the individual implementation that matters.

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I mean, look at your own logic.

 

Let's assume you've never played a Halo game in your life. You play Battlefield and you see that it has jumping, which for the most part, is fairly useless. Someone tells you that Halo also has jumping, but because Battlefield has a jumping mechanic that's useless, your logic dictates that Halo's jumping must also be useless.

 

If I took Halo Reach's Sprint and Halo 4's Thruster and welded them together, what I'd end up with is something completely different from the two in Halo 5. Put it simply, you can't look at the effects of a mechanic in one game and directly transfer that experience to another. The fact that a mechanic exists means nothing, it's the individual implementation that matters.

 

That's not his logic, that's your poor interpretation of it. And he's right, you don't have to play a game to know enough about it. For Halo 6, 343 could introduce a new "insta-kill" mechanic that everyone spawns with which sends out a fast, spherical pulse from the player when they press X that travels outward to infinity and kills any enemy player it touches. You don't have to play the game to know that would be stupid. The "how do you know if you haven't tried it" argument is ludicrous.

 

If you played Battlefield, what you know about jumping mechanics is that a tiny jump is fairly useless. So if someone told you that Halo has jumping in it, you would only infer that jumping in Halo is also useless if the jumping height in it were tiny just like Battlefield's. Alas, it is not, and he never assumed it was.

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The fact that a mechanic exists means nothing, it's the individual implementation that matters.

If lowering your gun is the only way to move at the fastest possible speed in a shooter with kill times above one second, individuals are limited and the only dominant strategy will be teamshooting. This will permanently be the only dominant strategy since kill times are too long to allow the meta to evolve into anything else.

 

If everyone spawns with a mechanic that boosts you in any one direction quickly, it will always be used defensively/to avoid taking damage. This adds to the issue pointed out above.

 

Halo 5's default experience does nothing to solve the big problem we've been dealing with since h2- the game mechanics gimp the individual. Teamshooting is the only form of teamwork that the game mechanics allow to exist.

 

The simple fact of the existence of lowering your weapon to move at max speed, spawning with a defensive escape boost, with kill times greater than one second makes it impossible for the individual to be strong enough in this game where teamshooting isn't an absolute necessity. These three factors can not be executed such that their gameplay impact is different.

 

This is outright awful. It's not fun to feel weak in a video game.

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Teamshooting is the only form of teamwork that the game mechanics allow to exist.

 

By this statement alone, I assume you've never played in or watched a top level competitive game of Halo in your life, because this is an insanely inaccurate blanket statement.

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By this statement alone, I assume you've never played in or watched a top level competitive game of Halo in your life, because this is an insanely inaccurate blanket statement.

Teamshooting is the end all be all in H5, and it has been that way since H2 due to the individual being gimped by the game mechanics.  

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Everyone knows that starts should be the railgun and suppressor combo. It's like you guys aren't even trying to make this balanced, fair, and completely respectable. 

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