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Halo 5: Guardians eSports/Arena Weapon Starts Poll

Arena Starting Weapons (constructive post gamescom thread)  

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  1. 1. Exports/Arena Starting Weapon Choices

    • Pistol + AR
    • Pistol + AR (AR nerfed)
    • Pistol + AR (Pistol patched to 4SK)
    • BR + Pistol
    • BR only
    • BR + AR
    • BR + AR (AR nerfed)
    • DMR Only / With AR (Is it viable over any of the above?)
    • Pistol Only


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eUeryone is entitled to their opinion but i really dont think it was the br that caused problems in those games

I know that the actual BR wasn't the full problem. It was the magnetism levels and the aim assist. But this games BR is just like that. But the inherent problem with the BR is it's inconsistency due to it's 3 round burst nature and it's sweep shooting that allows you to do damage even when you would normally miss and finish off one shots easily. No matter what a BR will always be inferior to a single shot weapon in terms of maximizing competitive merit. That's not to say BR starts can't be really competitive (they can) it's just that they aren't as competitive.

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So your solution to the AR being too strong is to give us a starting weapon with a slower kill time? If anything, the only fix we need is to either make it only pistol starts, or nerf the AR damage slightly. BR starts will totally kill the competitive potential of this game. Listen to Fanatic 66. The BR shouldn't define halo just because it did in the past, and if your argument is its easier to use, stick to warzone or learn to use the pistol better.

 

 

"This is the truth. Not only that, but doesn't the BR have a 1.6 second kill time? Why would we possibly want to increase the kill time? That makes no sense. Halo has always (or used to) placed an emphasis on individual skill as well as teamwork. The sniper is already super easy to use, let's not make our utility weapon a joke too."

 

(How do I quote something when editing a post?)

 

 

My ranks are higher than yours ( just read the first post you quoted)  and you tell me to "stick to warzone" or learn to use the pistol better. I also finish at the top of the accuracy board most of my games. If anything you should be asking me for advice.

 

Further, you have no idea what the kill times actually are and think the perfect kill time on the BR is 1.6 seconds which is completely wrong. It is 1.28 seconds. Those 0.08 seconds are marginal and do not make a difference in actual games and the average kill time of the BR is most definitely faster. This means that people can't just run away from your BR like they can from your pistol.

I think what a lot of people don't understand, including you, is that the perfect kill time means absolutely nothing for the actual game if the average kill time is too slow.

 

 

Secondly, notice how I'm always arguing BR and DMR ? You are obviously ignoring my posts and trying to paint me as a BR fanboy to try to invalidate my posts. Having either of those weapons be the starting weapon would lead to similiar results. I'd prefer the DMR but wouldn't be bothered by Brs either.

 

The DMR is a straight upgrade to the pistol as it functions the exact same with more range and a better scope. It even has the same RoF and shots to kill. Why are we gimping ourselves by using one of the weakest utility weapons Halo has ever seen?

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I generally don't like starting with secondaries. I like the simplicity of starting with a single utility weapon and anything else needs to be picked up off the map.

 

Secondaries tend to cause balancing headaches. They're usually either too good, redundant or cause other problems.

 

Weird how the prevailing opinion in the poll is BR + Pistol. Starting with 2 utility precision weapons has never happened in any previous game and it reminds me of the Halo 2 snipers gametype where you spawned with both a beam rifle and a sniper, which resulted in some pretty spammy gameplay.

 

As a disclaimer, I haven't played Halo 5, but I've watched a ton of footage of good players and I'm using that to formulate my opinions on this matter. As for which one of the precision weapons to pick for the starter, it would have to be either the Pistol or the DMR. I'm leaning towards the DMR because even though it's apparantly nearly a strict upgrade to the pistol, it has the important properties of being better at challanging power weapons and having more rounds so you can actually stand a better chance of taking out multiple opponents per mag with it. We shouldn't care less if it outclasses the Pistol because Halo has never been about having a million different re-skinned versions of the same gun and getting the starting weapon right is the most important thing for the game. If entirely replacing the Pistol with the DMR makes the game better, then so be it.

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I generally don't like starting with secondaries. I like the simplicity of starting with a single utility weapon and anything else needs to be picked up off the map.

 

Secondaries tend to cause balancing headaches. They're usually either too good, redundant or cause other problems.

 

Weird how the prevailing opinion in the poll is BR + Pistol. Starting with 2 utility precision weapons has never happened in any previous game and it reminds me of the Halo 2 snipers gametype where you spawned with both a beam rifle and a sniper, which resulted in some pretty spammy gameplay.

 

As a disclaimer, I haven't played Halo 5, but I've watched a ton of footage of good players and I'm using that to formulate my opinions on this matter. As for which one of the precision weapons to pick for the starter, it would have to be either the Pistol or the DMR. I'm leaning towards the DMR because even though it's apparantly nearly a strict upgrade to the pistol, it has the important properties of being better at challanging power weapons and having more rounds so you can actually stand a better chance of taking out multiple opponents per mag with it. We shouldn't care less if it outclasses the Pistol because Halo has never been about having a million different re-skinned versions of the same gun and getting the starting weapon right is the most important thing for the game. If entirely replacing the Pistol with the DMR makes the game better, then so be it.

The problem is that the DMR is too easy and has too much range. Yet the pistol is difficult with too little range. And the BR, well I don't think I need to go into detail. If only there was a happy medium.

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I generally don't like starting with secondaries. I like the simplicity of starting with a single utility weapon and anything else needs to be picked up off the map.

 

 

YYing is a big part of top level Halo.  Having a Secondary is a good thing.

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I know that the actual BR wasn't the full problem. It was the magnetism levels and the aim assist. But this games BR is just like that. But the inherent problem with the BR is it's inconsistency due to it's 3 round burst nature and it's sweep shooting that allows you to do damage even when you would normally miss and finish off one shots easily. No matter what a BR will always be inferior to a single shot weapon in terms of maximizing competitive merit. That's not to say BR starts can't be really competitive (they can) it's just that they aren't as competitive.

i would argue that the bursts inconsistancy has a skill gap all of its own...look at halo 3 for example...its inconsistancy means you haUe to adjust how you aim to compensate...and yeah sure the br is easier to land indiUidual bullets with...but not neccesarily a full contact shot...because if you miss a bullet in one of your bursts than you are not going to get a four shot...people who are just dragging their reticle will still not outshoot the better player in a one on one fight...the pistols consistancy means its actually not all that difficult to connect with your first shots...its just to hard finish sometimes...where as the br because of its inconsistancy you can finish kills more easily but not always get enough full burst connections to do it...the br in h5 is definetly easier to use than the pistol....but 343 can make changes to it....reduce the spread or whateUer...i dont think single fire weapons are uniUersally more difficult to get kills with...for example i found it much easier to get perfect 5 shots with the dmr in h4 than perfect 4 shots with the br in h4

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The problem is that the DMR is too easy and has too much range. Yet the pistol is difficult with too little range. And the BR, well I don't think I need to go into detail. If only there was a happy medium.

happy medium is a br with a much tighter spread homie! maybe reduce the rate of fire as well

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i would argue that the bursts inconsistancy has a skill gap all of its own...look at halo 3 for example...its inconsistancy means you haUe to adjust how you aim to compensate...and yeah sure the br is easier to land indiUidual bullets with...but not neccesarily a full contact shot...because if you miss a bullet in one of your bursts than you are not going to get a four shot...people who are just dragging their reticle will still not outshoot the better player in a one on one fight...the pistols consistancy means its actually not all that difficult to connect with your first shots...its just to hard finish sometimes...where as the br because of its inconsistancy you can finish kills more easily but not always get enough full burst connections to do it...the br in h5 is definetly easier to use than the pistol....but 343 can make changes to it....reduce the spread or whateUer...i dont think single fire weapons are uniUersally more difficult to get kills with...for example i found it much easier to get perfect 5 shots with the dmr in h4 than perfect 4 shots with the br in h4

I understand that the BR has positive aspects over single shot weapons. However, the positives don't outweigh the negatives in relation to single shot weapons. As you said, you do have to land all your shots to get a perfect kill. However, the problem with that is you can still deal a minimum of 33% damage. So even if you are just flailing your reticle over someone you can deal between 33-100 damage. With a single shot weapon it's hit or miss. If you don't press the trigger at the exact moment you are on someone you do no damage. This may seem minor but it's a huge deal especially in dealing with getting shot by multiple people and especially while you are one shot. There will always be more skill involved when you have to land that final headshot with a single fire weapon. The BR has 3x the chance of dealing damage as well as 3x the chance of killing a one shot opponent. Btw comparing the DMR and BR in Halo 4 is not a viable comparison because the DMR had different aim assist and RRR numbers than the BR.

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Keep hearing how the Pistol is so much harder to use than the BR or DMR. Is there any proof that the DMR has more auto aim? I wont deny that I have an easier time using the BR. But I feel like its mostly because its:

1. a 4 shot (1 shot less to hit)

2. easier clean up because of the 3 shot burst

3. and because its clearly better at range

 

Anyway, saying the DMR is too easy to use to be a utility weapon compared to the pistol is not true imo.

 

I hit 52% of my pistol shots, 51% of my DMR shots and 50% of my BR shots. If the DMR would be way easier to use, wouldnt I be way more accurate with it? I even checked a few pros as well and a lot of them are even more accurate with the pistol than with the DMR and BR.

 

So ok, fine, cut out the BR because people hate that its burst fire. But can someone prove and explain to me how he DMR is waaaay easier to use? Not more effective, but really just easier to use.

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The problem is that the DMR is too easy and has too much range. Yet the pistol is difficult with too little range. And the BR, well I don't think I need to go into detail. If only there was a happy medium.

 

It's practically impossible for a weapon to have "too much range". This myth just came about after people played too much Halo 3 and got used to never fighting outside of mid range.

If there is any playlist that features a weapon with too much range, it would be team snipers. Yet, team snipers is still pretty functional gametype, even though you can get one hit killed from any spot on the map at any time.

 

Not only does the DMR have less range the sniper, it is also significantly less lethal. Unless you are in terrible position you aren't going to die, especially considering the shit ton of ways you can escape in Halo 5.

 

I don't remember many people complaining about the range of the ZB DMR in Reach. If anything, the prime complaint was that it wasn't fast enough. Now that we have a DMR that kills faster, why is nobody giving it any consideration?

 

You also have to consider that on a map such as coliseum one team can just pick up a couple DMRs and cross map team shot you down in an instant, while you only have a pistol to fight back with.

It's practically impossible to get five shots in on a guy at long range while you have 3 people shooting at you with DMRs and Brs. In this case the DMR does indeed have too much range.

Yet, If everyone had a DMR you could at least shoot back on even ground, and the range problem solves itself.

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Decided to make this into a new post.

 

 @@Lambo

Great post. Just checked my accuracy and you guys are gonna love this.

 

Pistol 1401 kills 57% accuracy 

BR  789 kills 53% accuracy

DMR 310 kills 59% accuracy

Carbine 127 kills 57% accuracy

 

Guess this is all a conspiracy of noobs against the skillful gameplay the BR provides :kappa:

 

Double Edit: Checked out snipedowns stats and roughly the same thing, so even at the top level pistol is easier than BR.

Pistol 62%

BR 55%

DMR 60%

Carbine 59%

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dude if you only focus on haUing the most hardcore competitiUe settings in a game and neglect eUerything else then halo 5 will face the same problem as halo 4 just for opposite reasons

We tried to go with the accessibility route with h4 and it ended up being awful.

 

The only successful tournament reach had was when bloom and sprint were removed.

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The single shot weapons should inherently have a higher accuracy stat than the BR or automatics - especially when you account for pre-firing and not connecting with a full burst or the killing bullet not being the final round of a burst etc.

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I voted for pistol only as at the minute the game is just an AR fest.

I think a faster-killing Magnum would fix most issues people have with the AR and its ease of use.

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Magnum starts and take out AR, BR, DMR, Carbine, and LR completely. All of those guns are FAR too easy to use and make the gameplay boring. 

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Magnum starts and take out AR, BR, DMR, Carbine, and LR completely. All of those guns are FAR too easy to use and make the gameplay boring. 

I disagree with the LR being too easy to use. It seems to be on par with the Magnum in terms of difficulty.

I would push for it as a spawn weapon if it spawned with more ammo.

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I disagree with the LR being too easy to use. It seems to be on par with the Magnum in terms of difficulty.

I would push for it as a spawn weapon if it spawned with more ammo.

Ya thats true. I was mostly referring to BR/DMR being too easy. 

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I disagree with the LR being too easy to use. It seems to be on par with the Magnum in terms of difficulty.

I would push for it as a spawn weapon if it spawned with more ammo.

 

You do realize this is completely counterfactual right? Out of all the rifles, the light rifle is the one with the highest accuracy followed by the magnum.

Just looked up the accuracy stats and it is 67% for snipedown and 62% for me, which is both 5% higher than the pistol accuracy (Refer to my post on the last page). I also checked some other pros, and the light rifle has the highest accuracy rating for all of them.

I have no idea where you guys are getting your evidence for what is easy and what isn't.

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One possible explanation is that people tend to engage in longer distance shots with BR/DMR bringing down their accuracy percentage numbers compared to the range they are using the pistol. 

 

 

My feeling/recollection of my own play says in pistol vs BR battles, the one holding the BR usually wins.  Whether this is psychological or reality I am not sure.

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You do realize this is completely counterfactual right? Out of all the rifles, the light rifle is the one with the highest accuracy followed by the magnum.

Just looked up the accuracy stats and it is 67% for snipedown and 62% for me, which is both 5% higher than the pistol accuracy (Refer to my post on the last page). I also checked some other pros, and the light rifle has the highest accuracy rating for all of them.

I have no idea where you guys are getting your evidence for what is easy and what isn't.

Compare the amount of Magnum shots fired against the amount of Light Rifle shots fired.

And then take into consideration that the LR only spawns with 24 shots total.

And that it only exists on a few maps.

 

You can't look at this stuff in a vacuum. The BR is objectively easier to use than the Magnum, but usually has lower accuracy stats since it counts each individual bullet.

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I vote Pistol.

 

My first issue with having BR or DMR starts is that movement starts to become an issue.

 

If you have to win a difficult mid/long range battle to get the BR/DMR then you've EARNED the ability to have easier kills.  The accuracy stats only mean that Snipedown has done that very thing and it poppin away at his pistol-wielding adversaries keeping them at bay.  The sandbox is balanced around map movement and item placement.  If you no longer make certain routes necessary to obtain better weapons/power ups then it breaks a lot of what the game was designed around.

 

My second issue with the BR/DMR starts is that it makes aiming and getting shots in opponents too easy.  One of the foundation aspects of competitive Halo since the beginning was having a fighting chance off spawn and not necessarily having an easy to use utility weapon.  The pistol in H5 fills the role of utility weapon in the best sense of the term as it's never going to be the BEST choice in any engagement, but it'll still give you a fighting chance against an opponent who is using a stronger weapon like a BR/DMR.  You're going to lose a lot of those battles due to the increased AA/Bullet magnetism but overall it makes kills more satisfying and brings back the "clutch" aspect of gunfights which have been less then satisfying in Halo titles in recent times.

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Decided to make this into a new post.

 

 @@Lambo

Great post. Just checked my accuracy and you guys are gonna love this.

 

Pistol 1401 kills 57% accuracy 

BR  789 kills 53% accuracy

DMR 310 kills 59% accuracy

Carbine 127 kills 57% accuracy

 

Guess this is all a conspiracy of noobs against the skillful gameplay the BR provides :kappa:

 

Double Edit: Checked out snipedowns stats and roughly the same thing, so even at the top level pistol is easier than BR.

Pistol 62%

BR 55%

DMR 60%

Carbine 59%

 

What is % headshot kills for each weapon?   (headshots/kills)

 

Or another way to evaluate this is do a ballpark average ttk for each weapon.  It will be ballpark because not every kill is unassisted (probably more skewed by better teams). 

 

Average weapon ttk = [(headshot kills)*(weapon headshot ttk) + (non-headshot kills)*(weapon non-headshot ttk)] / [total weapon kills]

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