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Halo 5: Guardians eSports/Arena Weapon Starts Poll

Arena Starting Weapons (constructive post gamescom thread)  

850 members have voted

  1. 1. Exports/Arena Starting Weapon Choices

    • Pistol + AR
    • Pistol + AR (AR nerfed)
    • Pistol + AR (Pistol patched to 4SK)
    • BR + Pistol
    • BR only
    • BR + AR
    • BR + AR (AR nerfed)
    • DMR Only / With AR (Is it viable over any of the above?)
    • Pistol Only


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 I find it funny we're wondering how it'd be on the Pit... H5 Pistol > H3 BR. 

I imagine what it'd be like on a pit remake with no sprint/abilities and 4sk pistol starts.

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Secondly, a lot of claims you make about the BR being more fun to watch are very subjective. There is no evidence to this claim. Next, the pistol is the better competitive weapon.

Everything here is subjective besides the time to kill for a weapon. How we use the time to kill stat to decide on our starting weapon is subjective.

 

 

I don't think you've seen my 50+ posts bashing the AR starts. I never once said I wanted AR's or smgs in competitive play. I know the invitational looked boring I complained about it a lot. But the pistol stands the same chance against them as the BR does

This wasn't an argument against what you said, rather a general observation. I am glad you agreed the invitational looked boring.

 

You just made a point that the pistol has a faster kill and now you are saying the pistol and BR stand the same chance.. you are arguing with yourself.

 

 

Next, your descope argument. You do realize the pistol has a short her delay between shots right? Meaning you can descope a sniper more frequently allowing you to fight back a lot easier. The BR has a burst delay that pros can estimate and time their quick scopes between. Gandhi mentioned in H2 he would practice timing his snipes between the BR bursts, and that game had a really low burst delay.

Yes, I realize the pistol has a faster fire rate. There are two sides to this though. It may be very impressive to see someone cross map with a pistol, but the odds of that are much less likely than cross map with a BR. It is much more difficult. Yes, this adds to the skill gap and obviously competitiveness of the game. The other side, like you mentioned, is the skill involved with timing a quick scope between BR shots. To me, and this is obviously subjective, I would rather see a quick scope than a cross map pistol. The BR start allows everyone on the team to have a more legitimate chance at fending off a sniper than with a pistol start, in turn, making the sniper less powerful and more skillful to use.

 

 

Lastly, your obsession with a superficial term is kinda giving you a huge bias. No one is gonna be confused when a pistol is out shooting people. Halo CE the game that started it all shows this. Your arguments about how people will react are again just an opinion that has no factual base. What you are essentially saying is "forget competitive merit lets make the game look cool to people that don't know what's going on". This is eSports focused.

 

Making the game look cool and attracting viewers is what makes this an eSport. If nobody watched, it would never be an eSport. There has to be a balance. As competitive as it may be to lets say have everyone spawn with a plasma pistol or plasma rife, the skill involved to land every shot cross map is insane, but we aren't even going to consider that option. Why? Because it would be extremely dumb to watch and probably not even fun to play, even if you trained to somehow land 80% of your plasma shots cross map,

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I imagine what it'd be like on a pit remake with no sprint/abilities and 4sk pistol starts.

Why would we do that when we could just play a good map to go along with good settings?

Good luck finding people to play those settings with, though. Everyone is going to be trying to play the Dev Support settings.

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Well for starters like you said it is a virtual world. Logic has no factor in it at all. Secondly, a lot of claims you make about the BR being more fun to watch are very subjective. There is no evidence to this claim. Next, the pistol is the better competitive weapon. It has a faster kill time with a higher skill gap than any other utility weapon. That is why I want the pistol to be the starting weapon. Why lose competitive merit for "BR looks cooler it's a rifle it should be better" argument? That's a pretty superficial reason to make Halo lose competitive merit. Next, I don't think you've seen my 50+ posts bashing the AR starts. I never once said I wanted AR's or smgs in competitive play. I know the invitational looked boring I complained about it a lot. But the pistol stands the same chance against them as the BR does. Next, your descope argument. You do realize the pistol has a short her delay between shots right? Meaning you can descope a sniper more frequently allowing you to fight back a lot easier. The BR has a burst delay that pros can estimate and time their quick scopes between. Gandhi mentioned in H2 he would practice timing his snipes between the BR bursts, and that game had a really low burst delay. Lastly, your obsession with a superficial term is kinda giving you a huge bias. No one is gonna be confused when a pistol is out shooting people. Halo CE the game that started it all shows this. Your arguments about how people will react are again just an opinion that has no factual base. What you are essentially saying is "forget competitive merit lets make the game look cool to people that don't know what's going on". This is eSports focused.

I don't see why people aren't more for BR/Pistol. I heard people talk about making the settings the same across the board. But I don't see a point in having both starting weapons close range. I personally feel like Pistol is better and more exciting than AR and I feel like Pistol and BR are the most skilled utility weapons in the game right now. So why AR? Also I don't see how the pistol takes more skill. I know it supposedly has a quicker TTK, but how does that make it more competitive or harder to use. I'd think if anything a quicker TTK would make it easier to use and it shoots a single bullet at a time so while the BR shoots 3 bullets at a time adding the skill of players making sure they don't miss any of their bullets in their burst.

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I don't see why people aren't more for BR/Pistol. I heard people talk about making the settings the same across the board. But I don't see a point in having both starting weapons close range. I personally feel like Pistol is better and more exciting than AR and I feel like Pistol and BR are the most skilled utility weapons in the game right now. So why AR? Also I don't see how the pistol takes more skill. I know it supposedly has a quicker TTK, but how does that make it more competitive or harder to use. I'd think if anything a quicker TTK would make it easier to use and it shoots a single bullet at a time so while the BR shoots 3 bullets at a time adding the skill of players making sure they don't miss any of their bullets in their burst.

The pistol has a faster perfect ttk but a slower average ttk. That is why it is considered the more skillful alternative. Again, I do not want the AR and I would prefer just the pistol. As far as the burst vs. single shot debate that has been run through the ground. Basically the problem lies in damage distribution and ease of killing 1 shot enemies. With a BR you can sweep across targets and land a killing shot with much higher accuracy than a single shot weapon. With a single shot it's hit or miss, all or nothing. This ensures that the better aimer wins. The BR is also more inconsistent because it has spread and recoil. That's just a quick summary but there is a lot.

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The pistol has a faster perfect ttk but a slower average ttk. That is why it is considered the more skillful alternative. Again, I do not want the AR and I would prefer just the pistol. As far as the burst vs. single shot debate that has been run through the ground. Basically the problem lies in damage distribution and ease of killing 1 shot enemies. With a BR you can sweep across targets and land a killing shot with much higher accuracy than a single shot weapon. With a single shot it's hit or miss, all or nothing. This ensures that the better aimer wins. The BR is also more inconsistent because it has spread and recoil. That's just a quick summary but there is a lot.

I see I could deal with just pistols I'd rather have BR/Pistol. I personally am worried how well the pistol will perform in longer range battles against like snipers. That's why I'm wanting BR too. I also don't like the idea of people running around and killing me with an AR. I saw some video recently showing the AR pooping on a BR mid range.
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I see I could deal with just pistols I'd rather have BR/Pistol. I personally am worried how well the pistol will perform in longer range battles against like snipers. That's why I'm wanting BR too. I also don't like the idea of people running around and killing me with an AR. I saw some video recently showing the AR pooping on a BR mid range.

 

 

Must have been a really shitty player with that BR then.

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Must have been a really shitty player with that BR then.

I was pro in everything on the beta I'm by no means shitty in any area of Halo. You must be a shitty casual if you want AR starts.
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I was pro in everything on the beta I'm by no means shitty in any area of Halo. You must be a shitty casual if you want AR starts.

 

Judging a beta build is such a good way to determine what should be in the final game. I wish more people had the same thought process.

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Judging a beta build is such a good way to determine what should be in the final game. I wish more people had the same thought process.

Judging a beta build is such a good way to determine what should be in the final game. I wish more people had the same thought process.

The video was of the current build of H5.

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I am saying I was good at the beta, but I'm worried that the current build has an AR that is too good at mid range. Is that better?

 

I don't give a crap about the Beta. Has zero relevancy to the current meta/sandbox, no need to bring it up.

 

If a player was being outshot by an AR mid range when they had a BR then they must have been pretty bad.

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I don't give a crap about the Beta. Has zero relevancy to the current meta/sandbox, no need to bring it up.

 

If a player was being outshot by an AR mid range when they had a BR then they must have been pretty bad.

I brought the beta up because I thought you were talking about me being shitty for a sec

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If they nerfed the range of the AR to CE levels then it would be spot on, but it's too powerful right now.

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If they nerfed the range of the AR to CE levels then it would be spot on, but it's too powerful right now.

 

How can you say that without seeing any high level gameplay, though?

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How can you say that without seeing any high level gameplay, though?

With its current range and damage it's safe to say it'll be used a lot more given that it's easier to shoot and less punishing if you miss shots. Competitive play should promote skillful shooting and punish players who miss shots and the AR/SMG don't fit that profile at all. I'm still baffled that so many people are ok with starting with H5's version of the AR for competitive Halo. The only way it would be "acceptable" would be as a TB 3O3 suggested and that's nerfing it to CE's level of damage/range, but even then why would we want that when skillful shooting should be promoted in every scenario? I've said this before but the AR is not synonymous with the pistol as far as starting weapons go, you can actually start with only a pistol.

 
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^^^ CE AR was more powerful btw... 1 second kill time.

 

On good maps (Empire doesn't count), AR use will be inconsequential. 

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^^^ CE AR was more powerful btw... 1 second kill time.

 

On good maps (Empire doesn't count), AR use will be inconsequential. 

 

The CE pistol also had about half of the kill time as the H5 pistol does.

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The CE pistol also had about half of the kill time as the H5 pistol does.

 

Yeah, not taking a side on this one yet, but you definitely have to consider the rest of the sandbox when discussion how powerful a weapon is.

 

Everything is relative in sandbox design.

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I really hope it'll be BR/Pistol, AR doesn't take that much skill, its just spray and hope you out gun the other guy. The reticle speaks for itself. for a competitive gametype you want to use a reticle that's hard to aim. not starting with an AR reticle that's the size or a rocket reticle. 

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I really hope it'll be BR/Pistol, AR doesn't take that much skill, its just spray and hope you out gun the other guy. The reticle speaks for itself. for a competitive gametype you want to use a reticle that's hard to aim. not starting with an AR reticle that's the size or a rocket reticle. 

What's the point of the BR when you have the Pistol?

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What's the point of the BR when you have the Pistol?

 

I keep coming back to this myself. It seems that the pistol is pretty much our ideal starting weapon if we can get past the fact that it doesn't look like a Famas and kills in 5 shots instead of 4 (though that last one I'm a little salty about still).

 

The most fascinating thing about all of this IMO is that it basically proves that the vast majority of competitive Halo players don't give a shit about the actual mechanics of the game. So many people hated (Post-TU)Reach because the DMR's range made the gameplay so much slower and more punishing, but in H2A no one seems to mind at all. Then in H4 we went with BR starts despite the fact that the numbers seemed to show that the BR was possibly the least skillful (I will say that the patch retroactively made BR starts a decent option, but we were using it already).

 

Now we have this pistol that addresses all the issues people had with the DMR:

  • it doesn't have the ease-of-use at range to shut down map movement
  • it is perfectly accurate at range so that if you are able to hit those shots, you are rewarded for it consistently
  • no 3x scope
  • it has a faster kill time than the BR (and a slower avg. kill time based on what top-level play we've seen, but that didn't matter in H4 so I'm not giving it it's own bullet)

Yet somehow, despite all that, we've found a way to still come together as a community and decide that we want BR starts because.... well .. because reasons.

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