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Halo 5: Guardians eSports/Arena Weapon Starts Poll

Arena Starting Weapons (constructive post gamescom thread)  

850 members have voted

  1. 1. Exports/Arena Starting Weapon Choices

    • Pistol + AR
    • Pistol + AR (AR nerfed)
    • Pistol + AR (Pistol patched to 4SK)
    • BR + Pistol
    • BR only
    • BR + AR
    • BR + AR (AR nerfed)
    • DMR Only / With AR (Is it viable over any of the above?)
    • Pistol Only


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All of the things he quoted were true. 

 

2gre said "No bloom, no skill". Ninja said ordnance drops would raise the skill gap. Ryanoob has said that H4 is the best Halo game. 

Hahahahaha, this is hysterica, I can't believe this, I'm out. It's one thing when a Pro is promoting the game and being fake as fuck and what I am talking about is completely different. 

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Hahahahaha, this is hysterica, I can't believe this, I'm out. It's one thing when a Pro is promoting the game and being fake as fuck and what I am talking about is completely different. 

What do you want people to say? Pros obviously don't know every aspect of the game better than everyone who has less in-game skill than them. They are really really good manipulators of the game who can process and execute with the given mechanics better than anyone else. Does that mean Tom 'Tsquared' Taylor can come and give a seminar on good map design - no it fucking doesn't.

 

There are pros who choose to be educated about the workings of mechanics, map design, game theory etc, others couldn't care less and that's fine. It's a childish perspective to believe that because they are the best at doing something means they have the best overall understanding of every facet of the game. Not being a fount of all knowledge doesn't devalue what pros do in any sense.

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Everybody stating facts when they have none because none of us have touched the game.....the halo community in full effect.

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Everybody stating facts when they have none because none of us have touched the game.....the halo community in full effect.

Generalization in full effect.

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Generalization in full effect.

So when you have a multitude of members posting not opinions or debating opinions but stating their thoughts as facts as to why this that and third will work or will not work is hilarious. Everything being said in here from anybody other then the people that touched the most recent build is irrelevant because it's going off of speculation and not facts. This is the same community that played the Reach beta with bloom and proclaimed it to be the next huge game, the same community that had to debate for half a year on if H4 should be 4 shot or 5 shot and that we should allow people to choose between a DMR or BR at start.

 

Too many chiefs and not enough indians and that has been the problem with this community for the longest, too many people trying to innovate and fix something that isn't broken. My statement is not generalized my statement is fact.

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So when you have a multitude of members posting not opinions or debating opinions but stating their thoughts as facts as to why this that and third will work or will not work is hilarious. Everything being said in here from anybody other then the people that touched the most recent build is irrelevant because it's going off of speculation and not facts. This is the same community that played the Reach beta with bloom and proclaimed it to be the next huge game, the same community that had to debate for half a year on if H4 should be 4 shot or 5 shot and that we should allow people to choose between a DMR or BR at start.

 

Too many chiefs and not enough indians and that has been the problem with this community for the longest, too many people trying to innovate and fix something that isn't broken. My statement is not generalized my statement is fact.

More the fact you're saying the "halo community" as a whole and not a select few from said community.

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So when you have a multitude of members posting not opinions or debating opinions but stating their thoughts as facts as to why this that and third will work or will not work is hilarious. Everything being said in here from anybody other then the people that touched the most recent build is irrelevant because it's going off of speculation and not facts. This is the same community that played the Reach beta with bloom and proclaimed it to be the next huge game, the same community that had to debate for half a year on if H4 should be 4 shot or 5 shot and that we should allow people to choose between a DMR or BR at start.

 

Too many chiefs and not enough indians and that has been the problem with this community for the longest, too many people trying to innovate and fix something that isn't broken. My statement is not generalized my statement is fact.

What do you suggest? Should we wait for the game to be released, then peep that it is still a 5sk pistol start with ~1.20s kill time and less than 3 kills per clip. Is the movement speed / map travel distances going to magically reduce between now and release - going out on a limb here I'd say probably not. Pretty sure people are speculating off the information they know currently and I'd say overall we've had a pretty honest and fruitful conversation about what we want from a competitive utility weapon (even if there is disagreement).

 

The actual decision making is pretty much out of our hands for this games competitive settings but I'd rather at least have the options floated out there and discussed publicly than be told to 'wait until release' or 'rely on pro team'.

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I guess comparative analysis and deductive reasoning are meaningless.

Your same deductive reasoning doesn't make it fact correct? It is you speculating and making assumptions to keep yourself busy but comparatively we have seen that this community as a whole can analyze and deduct as much as we want but we still don't know what's good for us because every halo game since Reach we have done this exact same thing and failed miserably. We waste so much time in the beginning of a game debating on settings so personally I wouldn't be against the 343 pro team just deciding the competitive settings now since they have the most intel and hands on experience with the build. That way as soon as the game comes out we can hit the ground running and start having online and LAN tournaments running the same settings, no confusion or disagreements in the community and no misunderstanding.

 

The best and most competitive halo we've had have been the ones where the settings were dictated by unbiased parties such as MLG with Killa KC, as soon as H3 was out we knew what the settings were because they were already tested and we knew what weapon we started with and even knew we had the damage modifier at 110% so the BR was a 4shot.

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The best and most competitive halo we've had have been the ones where the settings were dictated by unbiased parties such as MLG with Killa KC, as soon as H3 was out we knew what the settings were because they were already tested and we knew what weapon we started with and even knew we had the damage modifier at 110% so the BR was a 4shot.

Talking about "stating their thoughts as facts"...

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The best and most competitive halo we've had have been the ones where the settings were dictated by unbiased parties such as MLG with Killa KC, as soon as H3 was out we knew what the settings were because they were already tested and we knew what weapon we started with and even knew we had the damage modifier at 110% so the BR was a 4shot.

 

Did you see the v1 settings of MLG Halo 3?

 

Isolation was one of the maps.

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Did you see the v1 settings of MLG Halo 3?

 

Isolation was one of the maps.

 

Isolation King deserved to be in the settings.

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So when you have a multitude of members posting not opinions or debating opinions but stating their thoughts as facts as to why this that and third will work or will not work is hilarious. Everything being said in here from anybody other then the people that touched the most recent build is irrelevant because it's going off of speculation and not facts. This is the same community that played the Reach beta with bloom and proclaimed it to be the next huge game, the same community that had to debate for half a year on if H4 should be 4 shot or 5 shot and that we should allow people to choose between a DMR or BR at start.

 

Too many chiefs and not enough indians and that has been the problem with this community for the longest, too many people trying to innovate and fix something that isn't broken. My statement is not generalized my statement is fact.

 

 

 

 

photo.jpg

 

 

But really I agree with the top part, a lot of people just say things without properly debating them.

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Did you see the v1 settings of MLG Halo 3?

 

Isolation was one of the maps.

To be fair, Onslaught is in the latest MLG Halo 3 settings...

 

Isolation got unfair treatment because it couldn't support bomb/CTF (thanks to throwing the objective through the windows under 3 seconds) and had average at best power item placement. In case that isn't bad enough, if people decide to be lame, TS can get horrible. But I can guarantee someone with a decent understanding of the sandbox, spawns and sight lines could make a tournament viable map out of it. 

 

I feel it just was written off during the earlier stages, and never reconsidered.

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Yeah Iso isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be. People just need to stop trying to make TS and CTF work on every map and allow some to shine with one gametype

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Isolation was not a terrible map, KoTH on that map was perfectly fine it only got taken out cause Killa KC couldn't figure out how to make the spawns very fair but even with the spawns implemented the map played very good. My whole point is within the first couple of weeks of H3 releasing we already had our competitive settings agreed upon and everybody was ok with it. The first 3 versions went by so quickly and then we got stuck on v4 for awhile until eventually it was v8 for an entire year. I don't want there to be a huge time gap in between the game coming out and us having our settings down like Reach took and H4 took because arguably right now we have the most money and most potential Halo can be at right now with the Million dollar tournament, ESL running events and MLG saying they are looking to run at least 1 event for Halo. So for majors we have Iron Gaming, UGC, PGL, MLG and ESL events both online and offline, that's the most we have ever seen and the opportunity shouldn't go to waste.

 

Just let the 343 pros choose the settings because they have had the most time with the build and it's not like we have just Ghostayame ruining settings like in Reach, we have Desrky, Strongside and Neighbor along with Bravo. All of them combined could definitely find the most competitive settings given the sandbox that's all I'm saying.

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Does anyone have the image that said "the future is orange" back from when we had a thread about making the light rifle the starting weapon in Halo 4 comp settings?

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No one sees anything wrong with AR starts letting garbage players compete with pros easily at close range?

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No one sees anything wrong with AR starts letting garbage players compete with pros easily at close range?

 

At Gamescom, (all pros), the Pistol had anywhere from 7-10x the number of kills as the AR, per game. And I doubt garbage players will somehow be better w/ the AR than pros. 

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At Gamescom, (all pros), the Pistol had anywhere from 7-10x the number of kills as the AR, per game. And I doubt garbage players will somehow be better w/ the AR than pros. 

 

 

The AR has next to no skill gap at close range. It's pretty much whoever gets the first shot off.

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To be fair, Onslaught is in the latest MLG Halo 3 settings...

 

Isolation got unfair treatment because it couldn't support bomb/CTF (thanks to throwing the objective through the windows under 3 seconds) and had average at best power item placement. In case that isn't bad enough, if people decide to be lame, TS can get horrible. But I can guarantee someone with a decent understanding of the sandbox, spawns and sight lines could make a tournament viable map out of it. 

 

I feel it just was written off during the earlier stages, and never reconsidered.

 

 

?? Onslaught is a great map... You can't complain about Onslaught and then turn right around and mention squeezing a competitive settings out of Isolation. Lol. The geometry of the map by itself makes it unplayable.

 

Edit: Did not see the timestamp...

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The AR has next to no skill gap at close range. It's pretty much whoever gets the first shot off.

 

With Thruster and Sprint, it's pretty easy to avoid close range. Also, if you're skilled enough, you can use the Pistol to beat the AR... Pistol has a faster perfect kill time.

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Alright, sitting down to share some insight. Wall of colorful text inbound.

 

OpTic Gaming vs. Supremacy Game 2, OpTic Fathom Comeback, 50 - 41 (91 Kills)

 

Pistol - 36 Kills

Shotgun - 9 Kills

SMG - 5 Kills

Assault Rifle - 8 Kills

Grenade/Melee - 12 Kills

BR/DMR - 15 Kills

Plasma Caster - 1 Kill

Sniper - 5 Kills

 

Epsilon vs. Supremacy Game 5, intense Empire, 50-46 (96 Kills)

 

Pistol - 44 Kills

Shotgun - 11 Kills

SMG - 15 Kills

Assault Rifle - 4 Kills

Grenades/Melee - 14 Kills

BR/DMR - 7 Kills

Plasma Caster - 1 Kill

 

Epsilon vs. Supremacy Game 2, Fathom Stomp, 50-27 (77 Kills)

 

Pistol - 42 Kills

Shotgun - 3 Kills

SMG - 2 Kills

Assault Rifle - 7 Kills

Grenades/Melee - 13 Kills

BR/DMR - 8 Kills

Plasma Caster - 0 Kills

Sniper - 2 Kills

 

 

Epsilon vs. CAZ Game 1, Empire Steak, 50-30 (80 Kills)

Pistol - 30 Kills

Shotgun - 4 Kills

SMG - 10 Kills

Assault Rifle - 5 Kills

Grenade/Melee - 19 Kills

BR/DMR - 11 Kills

Plasma Caster - 1 Kill

 

So here I've compiled stats of four games from the Gamescom Invitational, two where the winning team crushed their opponents, and two where the games were quite close, just so we can get a broad range of whether or not teams were abusing the weapons of concern.

 

Disclaimer: Occasionally during some deaths the killfeed got a bit jumbled, and I believe once or twice I couldn't see a kill at all so I threw it into what I best believed killed the player. Hopefully no keyboard warrior shows up shouting that I gave the Pistol one too many kills  :grunt:

 

Alright, so first off I wanted to point out that there are a couple schools of thought developing in this thread:

 

"CE Elitists" - People who dive deep into the kill times, supporting a fast optimal kill time and a slower average kill time, thus empowering the individual player (whether you agree with this ideology or not is up to you)

 

"BR Fanboys" - People whose judgement is clouded by either past Halo gameplay, or that from the Beta, where the Pistol and even BR were highly outclassed by ARs and SMGs.

 

"Casual Defenders" - People who support AR/Pistol starts because it encourages universal settings and encourage the transition from normal Arena gameplay to high level HCS play

 

...and then the two goons that voted for DMR starts.

 

Obviously I'm just poking fun. You might fit into a couple of those categories, you might fit into none and actually have a unique opinion. Doesn't matter. Everyone's got a different vision for competitive Halo but I wanted to clarify some things with these stats.

  • The Pistol is NOT Underpowered - Okay, so this one should be fairly obvious. Out of all four games, the Pistol dominated every other weapon. When compared to the other starting weapon, the AR, it is even MORE dominant. The Pistol took up around 40% of each games kills, not including gunfights that ended in a Grenade or Melee. To me, this speaks wonders about the Pistols strength as well as weapon diversity.
  • The Assault Rifle is NOT Overpowered - Pretty much the same thing you just read above, but the opposite. Out of all four of these games (between 77 and 96 kills) the AR never exceeded 10 Kills, and although I didn't pay attention to every gunfight, I guarantee a lot of these AR kills were cleanups from Pistol shots or team shooting. Although seeing the occasional AR kill in competitive gameplay is poison to many of your innocent H3 MLG eyes, the truth is that it is weak, and a lot of people that attempted to use it against a skilled Pistol failed.
  • The Shotgun was Overpowered... at Gamescom - This one is pretty straight forward. As you can see from the stats, Empire games were home to a LOT of Shotgun kills. Fathom has TWO Shotguns, but because of the long sightlines and importance of Top Mid, it was less dominant. On Empire, the Shotgun sometimes was heavily abused, but as we all know, it has been nerfed since the build we saw. Range was brought down, and it only will spawn with 5 Shots. In addition, I'd say that the Shotgun would have a MUCH different role in an Objective game like CTF. I don't want to make any calls yet, until we see updated footage, but I like the sounds of this nerf.
  • The SMG was CRAZY - Yep. This is what we should be concerned about out of everything. SMG kills on Empire consistently tipped over 10+ count, but something was off about it. In the Beta, as well as the E3 B-Roll (which is when this build was from), we saw that the SMG had a significant amount of bloom on it, to deter people from using it at crazy ranges, and that worked! Other than headshot multipliers in the Beta (which added an inconsistent damage bonus to automatics), the SMG fit its niche very well because it could only be used at the closest of ranges. Since then the Smart Scope buff has been removed so as long as the bloom returns, we should be fine. Hopefully that was a bug for the Gamescom build. If it wasn't, we should definitely be concerned for Empire gameplay if it doesn't see some sort of nerf.
  • What's up with the Plasma Caster? - Safe to say this was all on our minds... we had seen some awesome footage of it being put to use, and it definitely had moments where it shined, like Chalkie being able to use it to call out players in T2 because of Hitmarkers. I'm not sure if it needs a buff, or if the players just didn't have the appropriate time to learn how to use it. Hopefully it is the latter because I really would like to see this weapon in competitive play.
  • The Rifles were near perfect for their role - The BR and DMR fit very well into the weapon diversity. On Empire (2 BRs, 1 DMR), the close quarters seemed to favor the SMG and Shotgun a bit more, but hopefully with the new BR buff, we'll see it shine a little more. As for Fathom, it was clear that the Pistol/DMR balance was pretty damn good. DMR was much harder to aim up close and was often dominated by Pistols and Melees, whereas the long sightlines in Red/Blue Yard, as well as from Top Mid made the DMR an extremely viable, yet not overpowering weapon to pick up. (Keep in mind, Rifles spawn every 20 seconds after pickup, on a true dynamic timer)

So with all that said, hopefully it cleared up a few misconceptions for some of you regarding weapon balance. As for the rest of the arguements, there should be only two issues at hand.

  • TTK & the 4sk Pistol - I'm actually quite surprised how quickly the forums got behind the idea of a 4sk Pistol, mob mentality I guess. Majority of the people who are voting for the AR/4sk Pistol are either rallying behind the idea of individual empowerment (CE?), or the idea that the Pistol needs to be buffed to compete with other weapons. Hopefully these stats have debunked that second thought, but the first one is all up to personal opinion. Eventually this falls on 343's vision for the game. There is the extreme intellectual and individual skill focused gameplay of CE, and there is the team coordination and teamshooting reliance of Halo 3. And then there is a decent middle ground like Halo 2 (maybe leaning a little bit more on the team side for H2). At the end of the day, I think it's fair to say that a lot of the public community is a fan of longer kill times and team shooting (look at the influx of H3 Hardcore players in MCC). I think 343 is trying their hardest to still empower the individual with low aim assist and things like Thruster for gunfights, but at the end of the day, Halo 5 is shaping up to be a team oriented game. Whether you like this or not, is up to you.
  • Where's my BR? - Trust me guys, we aren't trying to bring back H2 SMG starts here. People who are voting for the BR are really not looking deeper into what the current loadout options present. If the BR were to become the starting weapon in this current balance, ARs, Pistols, and even DMRs in some cases, would become completely redundant. This is the first time we've ever had this much weapon variety in competitive Halo, and with the proper nerfs to certain weapons (SMG/Shotgun), then Pistol starts could be the biggest breath of fresh air we've ever seen. Please, put down your pitchforks for just a moment and see what this current Pistol has in store. It is by far the most skill oriented precision weapon in the game, and will truly do wonders for competition. Trust me.

but what would I know, I'm a Halo 4 kid.

 

 

 

:holmes:

 

Quoting cause this post should be on every page  :bravo:

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