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Halo 5: Guardians eSports/Arena Weapon Starts Poll

Arena Starting Weapons (constructive post gamescom thread)  

850 members have voted

  1. 1. Exports/Arena Starting Weapon Choices

    • Pistol + AR
    • Pistol + AR (AR nerfed)
    • Pistol + AR (Pistol patched to 4SK)
    • BR + Pistol
    • BR only
    • BR + AR
    • BR + AR (AR nerfed)
    • DMR Only / With AR (Is it viable over any of the above?)
    • Pistol Only


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I'm well aware of that. But Halo 2 and 3 were the games that made MLG Halo mainstream. Could CE have worked as a mainstream esports title? Maybe. We'll never know. What we do know is, the two games with BRs were by far the most successful in terms of esports viewership and popularity.

 

We  didn't have the telecomunications technology for streaming during the CE days like when MLG got big. Also, the game's fanbase had grown naturally over the course of three titles, so comparing the fanbase between CE and H3 isn't exactly an accurate assesment here.

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I find it humorous that we have come full circle, back to the nonsensical sidearm as a the primary weapon. A rifle should always be stronger than a Pistol, automatic or not. Yet here we are arguing that the Pistol needs to be stronger otherwise the game will be broken.
I guess what makes the most sense is BR/Pistol starts, with strong ARs on map. But then that is overlapping the SMG. So maybe extend the AR's range slightly, as to keep to the 'rifle' name, and keep the SMG as is?

That idea kinda sucks though, or at least I know it won't happen so I see no reason to entertain it any longer.

So how about this....


The main reason behind Ar/Pistol starts is lore - they are the Master Chief's signature weapons. So going off lore, why not go back to the first weaponset the MC ever used, the one given to us by Sir Captain Keyes himself? The lone Pistol.
I mean it makes sense; every respawn is starting anew, you work your way from the ground up, being given a leftover sidearm to keep yourself safe as you enter the fray is perfectly acceptable from a lore POV. Make more sense than being given any sort of rifle anyway, and is the model other popular FPS games use (a weak but viable and hard to use weapon off spawn, that you upgrade as you go).
This also works much better competitively because ARs are anything but.
The only issue is those casuals, but maybe this is something we can force feed them for the greater good. It is called Arena after all.

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I feel like the difference between AR/Pistol and Pistol/AR is something worth talking about.

 

As I mentioned before if players across the board spawned with pistols then I don't think we'd lose people by removing the AR secondary from competitive play (as a secondary starting weapon, keeping them on map is fine). I don't see someone casually tuning in wondering where the AR is at first.

 

I think theres a balance that can be reached. People aren't exactly thrilled about the AR but I think deviating from the default settings drastically is what others (including myself) want to avoid. Spawning with pistols and having the AR as a secondary in default but removing it in competitive could overcome a lot of this.

 

I'm curious if it's something 343 have discussed before.

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Does the order in which the weapon are equipped even matter? The pistol has a crazy fast draw speed, so by the time you start moving you'll have it ready anyway. It takes longer to draw in H1 and it's much easier to get spawn killed in that game but it's not really an issue.

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Do we have a good reason to have the H5 AR as a starting weapon?

 

From what I've understand

- Probably the most accessible primary in the game

- Vanilla settings brings competitive and casuals closer together 

- It's a nice complement for the pistol, while it's still weaker it can still get the job done (like here's a gun you could use temporarily learning the game's mechanics, feel and tricks while not struggling to win/survive in any of the gun fights)

 

For those who doesn't understand  why some people is pushing for a noob friendly weapon in what should be a competitive game consider this:

 

League of Legends was a new IP moba created back in 2009 that championed extremely easy and simple gameplay and features 

keep in mind that lol is a moba that imo is the most intimidating and confusing learning curves in all of gaming genres 

and was directly competing against PC gaming giants like WoW, Staracraft, Dota, Counter Strike and more MMORPGs that are popular in asia

and yet 6 years later it is the most popular game in it's time and with an incredible E-sport following that's still growing

 

and another thing

Halo isn't what it was before, the Glory days were done since Reach took over

As of right now COD is king of the console multiplayer games even on the Xbox side 

And with games like Star Wars BattleFront, Destiny and COD Black OPS 3, Halo will sure be struggling to gain ground this upcoming Christmas season.

It is important that Halo 5 as a game must be easily learned yet addicting and have enough if not more features that makes it a great competitive title

or it's dreams to be a E-Sport Titan may fail once again 

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It is important that Halo 5 as a game must be easily learned yet addicting and have enough if not more features that makes it a great competitive title

or it's dreams to be a E-Sport Titan may fail once again 

 

Addicting gameplay, not addicting grind-fests to unlock skinnerbox centric awards. ;)

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From what I've understand

- Probably the most accessible primary in the game

- Vanilla settings brings competitive and casuals closer together 

- It's a nice complement for the pistol, while it's still weaker it can still get the job done (like here's a gun you could use temporarily learning the game's mechanics, feel and tricks while not struggling to win/survive in any of the gun fights)

 

For those who doesn't understand  why some people is pushing for a noob friendly weapon in what should be a competitive game consider this:

 

League of Legends was a new IP moba created back in 2009 that championed extremely easy and simple gameplay and features 

keep in mind that lol is a moba that imo is the most intimidating and confusing learning curves in all of gaming genres 

and was directly competing against PC gaming giants like WoW, Staracraft, Dota, Counter Strike and more MMORPGs that are popular in asia

and yet 6 years later it is the most popular game in it's time and with an incredible E-sport following that's still growing

 

and another thing

Halo isn't what it was before, the Glory days were done since Reach took over

As of right now COD is king of the console multiplayer games even on the Xbox side 

And with games like Star Wars BattleFront, Destiny and COD Black OPS 3, Halo will sure be struggling to gain ground this upcoming Christmas season.

It is important that Halo 5 as a game must be easily learned yet addicting and have enough if not more features that makes it a great competitive title

or it's dreams to be a E-Sport Titan may fail once again 

 

The only thing is that we've heard this argument 1000 times already since our community died in Reach... 

 

Halo 2 and Halo 3 were easy games to learn and attracted a ton of viewers and players for YEARS and we did just fine with a skillful utility weapon (Yeah yeah guys I know the H3 BR was a roflnerf gun). It's constantly failing as, to use your words good sir, an e-sport titan because we keep trying to do a bunch of things that deter away from what Halo used to be for the sake of just being able to say we're innovating. I don't understand this whole ideal that vanilla and competitive settings need to be as close as humanly possible to be successful. I get that we don't need to change everything about the game, like honestly I could care less about the spartan abilities to be honest, but we should be able to change the starting weapon for god sakes lol... I mean look at Halo 1! The default starting weapon in that game is the damn Plasma Pistol.

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Guten Tag (sorry for bad English)

 

However, the AR is an absolute no go for me in competitive Halo. (please no comparsion to CE, then H5 simple isnt like CE)

Its probably the strongest AR we ever had, combined with the hardest utility weapon to use? Did you guys enjoy the gameplay they showed us at the gamescom? Well I did not. The pistol looks good in action, but the AR/SMG/Shotgun ruined it for me. I want to see intense Pistol vs. Pistol or BR vs. BR duels and not people sprinting and spraying around. And do you think the pistol being 1 shot stronger will change much from the gameplay we have seen?

 

Do we have a good reason to have the H5 AR as a starting weapon?

And no I dont think the same settings is what brings in more casuals to competitive Halo. Like someone else already said, its in the mind of the player, not in the settings.

 

Thanks for reading if you made it until here ;)

Schlimm, dass sich dieses deutschsprachige Pack jetzt überall breitmacht :wutface: (btw, I'm DARTH CEDIOUS, I think we "met" on waypoint once)

I get what you're saying about AR starts beeing a no-go, but if you look at the poll, I think allmost no one is feeling good about the way AR - Pistol are balanced right now. I actually believe buffing the pistol will help a lot! Maybe 343 would still have to nerf autos a little but I'd be willing to give it a shot if they make the pistol more viable first.

And don't forget that this is not a classic Halo anymore, don't judge it like one would have judged H2 or 3. Sure having all those AR fights all the time was boring as fuck but having an AR as backup with the Pistol beeing the new primary and having those strong SMG/Shotgun as semi-power weapons might create some intersting dynamic.

 

We're not gonna get classic Halo back any time soon, so why not go all in and try out new stuff so we might get to a point where we have a fun new Halo experience rather than a poor replica of what used to be so great. But this possible new Halo experience needs work from both parties, 343 and the commnity! I think if 343 is willing to take some risks here (buff the fucking pistol and listen to your fanbase) the community would find new ways to finally get to a new Halo that is not just diffrent (Reach, 4) but also fun.

(Believe me there is nothing I would love to see more than a good classic Halo, but I've been disappointed for years now and I don't have any hope left...maybe we can have a traditional HCE-like Halo as a "spin-off" some day )

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How likely is it that the pistol will be patched to 4sk or that the AR will be nerfed? Are 343 open to these changes? Honestly this poll and thread could be a huge waste of time just because of 3 options based on changes that may or may not happen. From the current sandbox I'd prefer BR starts but instead I've voted for what could likely be a pipe dream in the 4sk pistol.

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I am new to this forum, well I have been lurking for years here and there but almost daily for the last couple of months. (So much that I think about Halo CE everytime I see Mila Kunis)

 

 

giphy.gif

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I'd neg your shitpost but I got suspended for 3 days (...and had my avatar/sig removed? :lol: ) the last time I negged an unfunny gif.

 

As long as Halo esports has been popular, the starting weapon has been a BR. The pistol is just not as exciting to watch/look at in its current state. Could that change? Maybe, but I think BR starts are the way to go to maximize viewer interest.

This thread isn't about the viewer. It's about what's most competitive for the players. Telling me that it's not viewer friendly when a majority of casual player-base PREFER AR AND PISTOL STARTS it just fucking stupid. We've had to use BR's because there was no other viable starting weapon. This time around that has changed.

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This thread isn't about the viewer. It's about what's most competitive for the players. Telling me that it's not viewer friendly when a majority of casual player-base PREFER AR AND PISTOL STARTS it just fucking stupid. We've had to use BR's because there was no other viable starting weapon. This time around that has changed.

I can guarantee you the casual fan base will ask for either a nerf for the pistol, to remove it completely as a starting weapon, or ask for an AR buff. The whole point is that the pistol pretty much makes the AR useless. In every past Halo title when someone recommends BR/AR starts they cry and whine because their AR is now useless. The same thing will happen now.

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From what I've understand

- Probably the most accessible primary in the game

- Vanilla settings brings competitive and casuals closer together 

- It's a nice complement for the pistol, while it's still weaker it can still get the job done (like here's a gun you could use temporarily learning the game's mechanics, feel and tricks while not struggling to win/survive in any of the gun fights)

 

For those who doesn't understand  why some people is pushing for a noob friendly weapon in what should be a competitive game consider this:

 

League of Legends was a new IP moba created back in 2009 that championed extremely easy and simple gameplay and features 

keep in mind that lol is a moba that imo is the most intimidating and confusing learning curves in all of gaming genres 

and was directly competing against PC gaming giants like WoW, Staracraft, Dota, Counter Strike and more MMORPGs that are popular in asia

and yet 6 years later it is the most popular game in it's time and with an incredible E-sport following that's still growing

 

and another thing

Halo isn't what it was before, the Glory days were done since Reach took over

As of right now COD is king of the console multiplayer games even on the Xbox side 

And with games like Star Wars BattleFront, Destiny and COD Black OPS 3, Halo will sure be struggling to gain ground this upcoming Christmas season.

It is important that Halo 5 as a game must be easily learned yet addicting and have enough if not more features that makes it a great competitive title

or it's dreams to be a E-Sport Titan may fail once again

 

 

So I've been playing Smite and for better or for worse they balance the whole game around conquest, the main mode. This means that the casual modes like arena have OP characters and aren't really balanced, but HiRez doesn't seem to care.

 

But if 343 was running smite, the casual settings are what the game would be balanced around and the competitive settings would be unbalanced to cater to the casuals.

 

That is the difference between mobas and Halo. Please stop comparing games that are built to be competitive from the ground up to a game that is built around casuals.

 

After people figure out that the default settings aren't competitive, because 343 never cared about that, then we will finally be able to work on better settings. But by that time Halo 5 will have faded and we can all argue about how Halo 6 needs to use as close to the default settings as possible to get viewers for tournies.

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So I've been playing Smite and for better or for worse they balance the whole game around conquest, the main mode. This means that the casual modes like arena have OP characters and aren't really balanced, but HiRez doesn't seem to care.

 

But if 343 was running smite, the casual settings are what the game would be balanced around and the competitive settings would be unbalanced to cater to the casuals.

 

That is the difference between mobas and Halo. Please stop comparing games that are built to be competitive from the ground up to a game that is built around casuals.

 

After people figure out that the default settings aren't competitive, because 343 never cared about that, then we will finally be able to work on better settings. But by that time Halo 5 will have faded and we can all argue about how Halo 6 needs to use as close to the default settings as possible to get viewers for tournies.

^^^^THIS

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186 for anything with BRs

167 for buffed Pistol/nerfed AR+Pistol

 

13 for as is. The community has spoken QuinJosh (something in the equation needs to change)

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186 for anything with BRs

167 for buffed Pistol/nerfed AR+Pistol

 

13 for as is. The community has spoken QuinJosh

 

Makes me glad the community's opinion doesn't matter :D

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I only got like 15 pages in this thread before posting so forgive me if this has been discussed but I heard this somewhere else and really feel like it's worth sharing.

 

There is a big difference between perfect TTK and average TTK. The thing that separates the skillful weapons from the nooby ones is the gap between the two. For the automatics, the gap is almost non-existent. You pick up your AR, hold R, and get your kill. For utility weapons, the gap is a lot bigger. I think there's room for multiple utility rifles on a map because of this. It would be better if the variety was spread out over several maps, so that we don't have BR/DMR/LR/CC/Pistol ALL fighting on the same map, but if everyone spawned with a 4sk pistol and then this map has many Carbines, or many BRs. You get the picture. But, for this to work, those weapons should have a better AVERAGE ttk while having a worse OPTIMAL ttk. Maybe the LR can be the exception to this because of the zoom mechanic, but for the most part, this should be a golden rule.

 

For example, let's say the pistol kills in 1 second with a perfect 4 shot. However in most pistol duels it seems like people fire 6 shots before they get the kill, so it usually takes 1.5 seconds. On the other hand, you have the Carbine which kills in maybe 1.1 seconds if you get a perfect 7 shot, but given that it has a higher rate of fire it's more forgiving and people will usually get the kill with it in 1.4 seconds. So, for somebody who wants to play it a bit safer they will choose the Carbine because of the consistency in quicker killtimes, but for someone more confident in their aim they'll keep the pistol. And, if two players run into each other and have a pistol vs. Carbine duel, it's still fair and exciting because in the end the weapons are balanced and similar enough in function that the better player who made the better decisions will win out 99% of the time anyway.

 

The difference between average TTK and optimal TTK is also important in understanding what should be done with the AR. It should be balanced to have the same optimal TTK as the pistol's average TTK in close-medium range. This means if you're good at placing your shots consistently you will ALWAYS beat the AR user, but if you miss 2 shots you get melted. I still don't believe we should spawn with ARs, but if it's balanced this way then it can maybe be a map pickup.

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I only got like 15 pages in this thread before posting so forgive me if this has been discussed but I heard this somewhere else and really feel like it's worth sharing.

 

There is a big difference between perfect TTK and average TTK. The thing that separates the skillful weapons from the nooby ones is the gap between the two. For the automatics, the gap is almost non-existent. You pick up your AR, hold R, and get your kill. For utility weapons, the gap is a lot bigger. I think there's room for multiple utility rifles on a map because of this. It would be better if the variety was spread out over several maps, so that we don't have BR/DMR/LR/CC/Pistol ALL fighting on the same map, but if everyone spawned with a 4sk pistol and then this map has many Carbines, or many BRs. You get the picture. But, for this to work, those weapons should have a better AVERAGE ttk while having a worse OPTIMAL ttk. Maybe the LR can be the exception to this because of the zoom mechanic, but for the most part, this should be a golden rule.

 

For example, let's say the pistol kills in 1 second with a perfect 4 shot. However in most pistol duels it seems like people fire 6 shots before they get the kill, so it usually takes 1.5 seconds. On the other hand, you have the Carbine which kills in maybe 1.1 seconds if you get a perfect 7 shot, but given that it has a higher rate of fire it's more forgiving and people will usually get the kill with it in 1.4 seconds. So, for somebody who wants to play it a bit safer they will choose the Carbine because of the consistency in quicker killtimes, but for someone more confident in their aim they'll keep the pistol. And, if two players run into each other and have a pistol vs. Carbine duel, it's still fair and exciting because in the end the weapons are balanced and similar enough in function that the better player who made the better decisions will win out 99% of the time anyway.

 

The difference between average TTK and optimal TTK is also important in understanding what should be done with the AR. It should be balanced to have the same optimal TTK as the pistol's average TTK in close-medium range. This means if you're good at placing your shots consistently you will ALWAYS beat the AR user, but if you miss 2 shots you get melted. I still don't believe we should spawn with ARs, but if it's balanced this way then it can maybe be a map pickup.

 

Are we twins? It's like we're posting the same thing, ranting on about Opt TTK and Avg TTK and all. I'm so happy to see this.

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Isn't the main problem with the BR the fact that it kills in one headshot unshielded rather than 3? If they just changed the damage on unshielded opponents wouldn't that negate the issue? The fact that you have to keep your aim on someone longer makes it more difficult to actually aim right?

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Isn't the main problem with the BR the fact that it kills in one headshot unshielded rather than 3? If they just changed the damage on unshielded opponents wouldn't that negate the issue? The fact that you have to keep your aim on someone longer makes it more difficult to actually aim right?

 

It's finishing one-shots that's the problem, sure if you had to land all 12 bullets for a perfect kill that would be good (although over-sensitive to lag), but the 5th shot is still going to be extremely easy to finish your opponent with if you don't quite get the perfect. That's why single shots are better than burst; their difference between perfect and average is always going to be higher.

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It's finishing one-shots that's the problem, sure if you had to land all 12 bullets for a perfect kill that would be good (although over-sensitive to lag), but the 5th shot is still going to be extremely easy to finish your opponent with if you don't quite get the perfect. That's why single shots are better than burst; their difference between perfect and average is always going to be higher.

I'm not following sorry. If it takes 3 bursts to the body and an entire burst to the head wouldn't it be the same as a single shot but require you to retain accuracy more?

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I'm not following sorry. If it takes 3 bursts to the body and an entire burst to the head wouldn't it be the same as a single shot but require you to retain accuracy more?

 

Because of spread / reticule movement, you can hit partial shots with burst.  1 of 3 bullets hit the body.  2 bursts in a row.

 

With single shots, this is not the case.  You either hit or you miss.

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