Jump to content
TheSimms

Halo 5: Guardians eSports/Arena Weapon Starts Poll

Arena Starting Weapons (constructive post gamescom thread)  

850 members have voted

  1. 1. Exports/Arena Starting Weapon Choices

    • Pistol + AR
    • Pistol + AR (AR nerfed)
    • Pistol + AR (Pistol patched to 4SK)
    • BR + Pistol
    • BR only
    • BR + AR
    • BR + AR (AR nerfed)
    • DMR Only / With AR (Is it viable over any of the above?)
    • Pistol Only


Recommended Posts

 

 

In regards to the poll, I'd rather see the Pistol's rate of fire increased so that it can hit a 1 second kill time (from its 1.2 seconds kill time) while keeping it as 5 shot kill. That way, it retains its identity as a "skill" weapon by rewarding good aim and allowing it to overturn duels against other rifles.

 

 

That gives the BR a reason to be picked up, since you're exchanging said kill time and a faster reload speed for enough ammo capacity to kill 3 players, marking its position as a "safe" weapon that's easier to use.

 

Practically speaking, the inability to kill 3 players in a row isn't that much of a handicap. Players really shouldn't be engaging 3 enemies alone with only a Pistol in the first place.

 

As for the DMR, it's in a good position. If the Pistol were buffed, it would still be picked up because of its longer range and higher ammo capacity. However, currently, the DMR has the same kill time as the Pistol, which is an issue since that makes it a direct upgrade to it.

Why should the BR have to have a reason to be picked up. The only reason, if we really have to keep it (which we shouldn't. Go away every other rifle in competitive), it should be ease of use at range. It should have a ttk that is so bad in relation to the pistol that only people who want an easy weapon will pick it up. A skilled pistol player should shit on a rifle user at all ranges consistently.

Share this post


Link to post

Why should the BR have to have a reason to be picked up. The only reason, if we really have to keep it (which we shouldn't. Go away every other rifle in competitive), it should be ease of use at range. It should have a ttk that is so bad in relation to the pistol that only people who want an easy weapon will pick it up. A skilled pistol player should shit on a rifle user at all ranges consistently.

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?

 

Because you're certainly not disagreeing with me.

Share this post


Link to post

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?

 

Because you're certainly not disagreeing with me.

Lol I don't even know. So I'll just say I agree

Share this post


Link to post

Lol I don't even know. So I'll just say I agree

Next time, read my post a little more carefully.

 

We were arguing for the same thing here.

Share this post


Link to post

Next time, read my post a little more carefully.

 

We were arguing for the same thing here.

Haha my bad sometimes I interpret things wrong I'll take the fault here. You win this time.
  • Upvote (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post

So pretty much everyone is voting AR+Pistol with Pistol being a 4 shot... Why didn't you just create a category so everyone can pick Pistol only... 

 

AR being in competitive Arena.... lol 

Share this post


Link to post

I voted the BR + AR (nerfed).

 

I don't mind the full-auto weapon because it becomes a viable tool for close range combat when you freshly spawn.

 

If the pistol was given a 4sk and faster rate of fire, I could see it as a great pickup weapon on the map. Same goes with the DMR, I think it needs to stay a pickup...easily outshines the BR.

 

When a player spawns, they need to start with weapons that allow them to defend themselves from all ranges without the need to have to pick up a weapon on the map. Case in point, look at Halo CE.

Share this post


Link to post

pretty obvious result, but how do we get 343i to take notice of that now?

on waypoint the result would look a lot different i guess, BR + AR probably with highest vote because of H3 fans lol

Share this post


Link to post

All competitive games? Literally every game has different settings than competitive, they are just in different playlists. Just like Halo. CS:GO? Has Casual, Deathmatch, Arms Race, Demolition AND competitive. Yes the competitive playlist has the same settings but that's not the only playlist. Every game has multiple playlists with different settings and then a competitive playlist. Can people please stop saying other games have "universal settings" because they don't. At all.

 

The difference between Summoner's Rift unranked and Summoner's Rift ranked is basically nada. The difference between forged maps, no bloom, no sprint, accelerated movement speed, and changed gametypes, is quite a significant difference. 

Share this post


Link to post

The difference between Summoner's Rift unranked and Summoner's Rift ranked is basically nada. The difference between forged maps, no bloom, no sprint, accelerated movement speed, and changed gametypes, is quite a significant difference.

Woah so you are using one game as an example? I thought EVERY eSports title had the same settings? It's a dumb argument to say that a game needs the same settings when the most popular FPS game doesn't even have it. Reach and Halo 3 both showed that vanilla settings don't make a game have a bigger crowd.

Share this post


Link to post

Woah so you are using one game as an example? I thought EVERY eSports title had the same settings? It's a dumb argument to say that a game needs the same settings when the most popular FPS game doesn't even have it. Reach and Halo 3 both showed that vanilla settings don't make a game have a bigger crowd.

 

I'm using the most successful eSports title in history, League of Legends. Dota is the same way.

 

Your only counter example is CS, which once again isn't fundamentally different than competitive CS. Imagine if we changed the cost of all the weapons to something different, edited the maps, changed the spawns, changed the jump and movement speed, changed disarm times, changed what weapons could be used, etc. Then we would be close to what Halo competitive vs casual has become recently. 

  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

In simple terms, I think the Pistol needs to be buffed to 3 kills per clip, however they choose to accomplish this. If you hit 12 perfect shots in a row, I believe you deserve 3 kills. Given the speed with which players can move around the map but maintaining gunskill requirements I think reducing ROF and extending the clip to 15 rounds is another choice.

 

However, I've said this multiple times throughout the forums. If you decide on Pistols, BR+DMR CANNOT spawn on the map. Period. The number of encounters I saw even in the invitational where one player was using the pistol and the other player was using a BR, DMR, AR, or SMG was just totally unacceptable. This is especially true if BR + DMR have range advantages that put even highly skilled players at a disadvantage.

 

Expanding the rifle sandbox simply randomizes the gameplay. Imagine competitive Halo basically turning into Action Sack. It creates situations where the player with the most gunskill, and even superior positioning does not win the majority of 1v1 battles simply because of the (almost random) choice of a rifle weapon on the map. It fractures the experience so that viewers have a hard time doing simple comparisons (how do you compare one player using a DMR and another pistol'ing?). It affects the individual meta of the game because at the highest levels 1v1's will be decided by the weapon you choose and not how well you aim or strafe.

I agree with your first point.

 

As far as the perception and interpretation of randomness through an expanded sandbox, I think it's a bit overstated and don't really see it as a problem in modern esports. Understanding balance and more specifically deficit creates its own dynamic of tension in audience expectation. LoL, Dota, CS, SC2, SF4, Quake and so on all work with instances of apparent deficit whereby entertainment is derived in the audience knowing what should happen and then either proven right or surprised which is the money shot e.g. even if you don't play CS or even FPS in general you know that this should not happen, which makes it all the more entertaining when it does. It is an extreme example to compare to DMR vs pistol engagements which within a certain range are negligible in terms of deficit, but the potential for overturning expectation and thus entertainment is still there.

  • Upvote (+1) 4

Share this post


Link to post

I'm using the most successful eSports title in history, League of Legends. Dota is the same way.

 

Your only counter example is CS, which once again isn't fundamentally different than competitive CS. Imagine if we changed the cost of all the weapons to something different, edited the maps, changed the spawns, changed the jump and movement speed, changed disarm times, changed what weapons could be used, etc. Then we would be close to what Halo competitive vs casual has become recently.

LOL how can you use league as an argument? It's not even an FPS the whole game is different than Halo. And your argument about changing cost and all that in CS makes no sense. Halo isn't fundamentally changing anything from ITS COMPETITIVE PLAYLIST and the COMPETITIVE GAME. CS has a playlist called Casual. Guess what it's FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT THAN THE COMPETITIVE GAME. Every playlist in CS is fundamentally different except the actual competitive playlist. Is that hard to understand? Halo has been doing the exact same thing. The competitive playlist has different rules than the others that the competitive community uses. It's the SAME game the pros play. Same with CS. By that logic we shouldn't have any playlist except for 1 because we are changing the game.
  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

In the name of clarity and brevity:

The Magnum is better than the BR.

 

Fin.

 

 

 

The long version:

The Magnum kills faster than the BR.

The Magnum functions better at ranges exceeding both respective RRRs than the BR (binary hit/miss, no partial damage).

The Magnum is more difficult to use at all ranges than the BR.

In terms of raw TTK the AR is closer to the BR than it is to the Magnum, which will only exacerbate any current issues with the AR being too strong.

These are the facts. By advocating for the BR from the approach of a range issue you're completely overlooking the fact that the consistency of the pistol massively outweighs the 0.5x difference in magnification strength (1.5x zoom on the handgun, 2x on the rifle). The DMR does have a significant range advantage, however that's a different discussion entirely. It has nothing to do with CE nostalgia and everything to do with the fact that (once again) the Battle Rifle is unequivocally the worst precision weapon in the game, and those of in the pistol camp simply have had enough of spawning with weapons that don't meet our expectations of efficacy.

It's about the pistol's place relative to the sandbox of weapons on the map. On a map with DMRs, BRs, and SMGs sitting around,  the pistol's effectiveness is reduced significantly. Players spawning with a pistol will have trouble battling those who have already picked up other weapons and are battling at certain ranges. It only takes one look at the invitational gameplay to see that a pistol player would consistently get wrecked by someone with the other weapons at non-close ranges.

 

"The Magnum functions better at ranges exceeding both respective RRRs than the BR". I absolutely guarantee that doesn't hold up in actual gameplay due to difficulty of use.

Share this post


Link to post

LOL how can you use league as an argument? It's not even an FPS the whole game is different than Halo. And your argument about changing cost and all that in CS makes no sense. Halo isn't fundamentally changing anything from ITS COMPETITIVE PLAYLIST and the COMPETITIVE GAME. CS has a playlist called Casual. Guess what it's FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT THAN THE COMPETITIVE GAME. Every playlist in CS is fundamentally different except the actual competitive playlist. Is that hard to understand? Halo has been doing the exact same thing. The competitive playlist has different rules than the others that the competitive community uses. It's the SAME game the pros play. Same with CS. By that logic we shouldn't have any playlist except for 1 because we are changing the game.

The competitive playlist is what you actually play in CS though and the differences between the two are quite small (round time from 2mins to 1.45mins, bomb timer from 45seconds to 35seconds). It's like saying Starcraft competitive and casual games are different just because it has a section for mini games - they're additional experiences not the core of the game. Halo on the other hand has moved further and further away from what is being sold as the core experience.

  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

LOL how can you use league as an argument? It's not even an FPS the whole game is different than Halo. And your argument about changing cost and all that in CS makes no sense. Halo isn't fundamentally changing anything from ITS COMPETITIVE PLAYLIST and the COMPETITIVE GAME. CS has a playlist called Casual. Guess what it's FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT THAN THE COMPETITIVE GAME. Every playlist in CS is fundamentally different except the actual competitive playlist. Is that hard to understand? Halo has been doing the exact same thing. The competitive playlist has different rules than the others that the competitive community uses. It's the SAME game the pros play. Same with CS. By that logic we shouldn't have any playlist except for 1 because we are changing the game.

 

It's an eSports title so it's pretty easy to compare League of Legends competitive vs casual. CS is not fundamentally different, and I'd urge you to actually play it. You can have different modes in Halo for sure, but like I said, you don't see this in other games where the core mechanics are fundamentally different. 

  • Downvote (-1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

The competitive playlist is what you actually play in CS though and the differences between the two are quite small (round time from 2mins to 1.45mins, bomb timer from 45seconds to 35seconds). It's like saying Starcraft competitive and casual games are different just because it has a section for mini games - they're additional experiences not the core of the game. Halo on the other hand has moved further and further away from what is being sold as the core experience.

Casual isn't the only other playlist in CS though. And the difference between the casual and competitive playlist is HUGE what are you talking about? Halo needs an actual competitive Playlist with different settings. Seriously Halo as it is now is so bad for competitive it's ridiculous.

Share this post


Link to post

343 balanced the AR/Pistol accordingly so that the AR will win most close range fights and the Pistol will win the longer range fights.
 
The problem with this sort of situational balancing is that while the Pistol is the competitive community's dream weapon, with low AA and a fast kill time, the AR is an easy to use, beginner, spray-and-pray weapon. Now predictably, when competitive sorts see the AR actually being viable in close range situations, they want the Pistol to be buffed accordingly.

 

I don't think the question we should be asking whether or not the Pistol should be buffed to a 4sk; I think the question we should be asking is what sort of fundamental design changes to the AR are needed so that it can finally fill a niche while not being detrimental to the default settings competitive value. 

  • Upvote (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post

It's an eSports title so it's pretty easy to compare League of Legends competitive vs casual. CS is not fundamentally different, and I'd urge you to actually play it. You can have different modes in Halo for sure, but like I said, you don't see this in other games where the core mechanics are fundamentally different.

I play CS:GO. Each playlist is very different. And for Halo I'm only asking for removal of certain weapons. How is that fundamental different?

Share this post


Link to post

Casual isn't the only other playlist in CS though. And the difference between the casual and competitive playlist is HUGE what are you talking about? Halo needs an actual competitive Playlist with different settings. Seriously Halo as it is now is so bad for competitive it's ridiculous.

 

Lol, are you living on a different planet? You're missing all of the points. Why would you want to separate the competitive and casual core gameplay when we can have it so that vanilla Halo 5 is competitive? 

 

There's going to be a separate competitive playlist, it just won't be fundamentally different (hopefully) in terms of core gameplay. 

Share this post


Link to post

Casual isn't the only other playlist in CS though. And the difference between the casual and competitive playlist is HUGE what are you talking about? Halo needs an actual competitive Playlist with different settings. Seriously Halo as it is now is so bad for competitive it's ridiculous.

They're just minor additions to the game mate, not the core game where the majority of its interaction takes place. If you ask people what Counter-Strike is they'll explain to you the core game. This is the same for Halo, there's a solid presentation (for good or bad) of what the game is which is then supplemented with other experiences (snipers / swat / grifball / hardcore etc).

Share this post


Link to post

Lol, are you living on a different planet? You're missing all of the points. Why would you want to separate the competitive and casual core gameplay when we can have it so that vanilla Halo 5 is competitive?

 

There's going to be a separate competitive playlist, it just won't be fundamentally different (hopefully) in terms of core gameplay.

The closer the better sure, but as it is now Halo 5 is not good for comp that's my point. If they don't want to change the actual game for comp then the only option is a playlist with different rules.

Share this post


Link to post

They're just minor additions to the game mate, not the core game where the majority of its interaction takes place. If you ask people what Counter-Strike is they'll explain to you the core game. This is the same for Halo, there's a solid presentation (for good or bad) of what the game is which is then supplemented with other experiences (snipers / swat / grifball / hardcore etc).

I don't get your point.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use & Privacy Policy.