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Halo 5: Guardians eSports/Arena Weapon Starts Poll

Arena Starting Weapons (constructive post gamescom thread)  

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  1. 1. Exports/Arena Starting Weapon Choices

    • Pistol + AR
    • Pistol + AR (AR nerfed)
    • Pistol + AR (Pistol patched to 4SK)
    • BR + Pistol
    • BR only
    • BR + AR
    • BR + AR (AR nerfed)
    • DMR Only / With AR (Is it viable over any of the above?)
    • Pistol Only


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There is a reason the AR was fine in CE. It's because the actual gun had no real advantage. How many times do you see pro Halo CE players pull out their AR and press R? Never. The gun was fine in that Zane because of QC and melee speed. The actual gun didn't beat the pistol at anything. Guess what the AR can do in Halo 5? Beat the pistol in close range. Consistently. Red flag hellooooo

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So you want other rifles so you can see someone get best another player and say "cool". No offense but that's kinda selfish. You want to randomize the game so you can be happy. I don't think you understand Halos need for one utility weapon.

What? A couple precision rifles on the map are not random. That is not what random means at all. Less predictable than if it were pure pistols, sure, but not random.

 

Idk how I'm selfish either. So you're saying you don't like those clutch moments where the odds are against the player yet he pulls off the kill? That's what people want to see in a match. That's the high point for spectators. I understand you want the most competitive settings, but you failed to consider the rest of my post. A couple rifles on map will not outshine the default starting weapon, not by a long shot. Pistol vs pistol will still be the majority of engagements especially if they buff the pistol.

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If the Pistol has a TTK of 1.0, then it's not a problem because it can kill faster than the AR at all ranges.

 

If the Pistol is fighting an SMG at close range, then it deserves to lose because that's the SMG's niche. The Pistol would simply beat the SMG by backing up and out of its niche and into medium range where it has trouble hitting.

You seriously don't get it. I'll ask you one question. Your answer will determine whether I continue this conversation.

 

Do you think Halo 5 would be more competitive as it is now, with the AR the way it is, the smgs on the map with the same stats and all the other rifles too, or just pistol starts, all rifles removed and AR and SMG removed as well.

 

Which option is more competitive?

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What? A couple precision rifles on the map are not random. That is not what random means at all. Less predictable than if it were pure pistols, sure, but not random.

 

Idk how I'm selfish either. So you're saying you don't like those clutch moments where the odds are against the player yet he pulls off the kill? That's what people want to see in a match. That's the high point for spectators. I understand you want the most competitive settings, but you failed to consider the rest of my post. A couple rifles on map will not outshine the default starting weapon, not by a long shot. Pistol vs pistol will still be the majority of engagements especially if they buff the pistol.

First off your first paragraph is contradictory. You said less predictable. That means more random. Next, you are putting yourself as a spectator above the needs if the competitive player. Imagine for a minute that you were playing the game for a shot at $1 million. You would want it to be as random and fair as possible right? You do to want to be at a "disadvantage" against a guy that has a better utility weapon than you do. Sure we all love when people make amazing plays when they should've died. But we shouldn't create those experiences as the norm. It's not fair to the players.

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Also, in my opinion autos should be effective from short to mid range, able to challenge both cqc weapons (Shotgun/Sword), and mid range rifles/other types of mid-range guns.

 

If they are only good in cqc, then I will drop them for Shotgun/Sword every time because those are straight upgrades.

 

The same reason that we don't want straight upgrade utility weapons on the map is the same reason why I don't want automatic weapons to only be good in cqc.

 

 

Adding to this post that I made above:

 

 

I also believe that burst firing the automatic weapons is not taken into account as much as it should be.

 

I feel like I win every 1v1 AR fight that I should due to proper shot pacing and bloom control. Hell, even just rapidly tapping the trigger fir a semi auto fire effect on autos makes a HUGE difference in negating RNG effects on autos, however the problem is that this is not emphasized enough because holding down the trigger needs to be as wildy inaccurate an off course as a CE AR by the time the third shot is fired but the first two shots fired need to be perfectly accurate with the bloom resetting immediately upon letting go of the trigger.

 

This or a similar method using perfectly straight recoil that half resets could work as well.

 

This would make it so burst-firing autos would be reliably much quicker at killing than holding down the trigger.

 

And with low AA in Halo 5 this would only be encouraged.

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There is a reason the AR was fine in CE. It's because the actual gun had no real advantage. How many times do you see pro Halo CE players pull out their AR and press R? Never. The gun was fine in that Zane because of QC and melee speed. The actual gun didn't beat the pistol at anything. Guess what the AR can do in Halo 5? Beat the pistol in close range. Consistently. Red flag hellooooo

Here's some news for you.

 

Halo 5 isn't Halo CE, stop trying to balance the game around it.

 

Halo CE had a useless Needler, so should Halo 5 have a useless Needler? Of course not.

 

Halo CE had a jump delay, so should Halo 5 have a jump delay? No.

 

Halo CE had instant kill vehicle physics, so should Halo 5 have the same? Definitely not.

 

Let it be its own game before you judge it.

 

 

You seriously don't get it. I'll ask you one question. Your answer will determine whether I continue this conversation.

 

Do you think Halo 5 would be more competitive as it is now, with the AR the way it is, the smgs on the map with the same stats and all the other rifles too, or just pistol starts, all rifles removed and AR and SMG removed as well.

 

Which option is more competitive?

 

Probably the second choice.

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Here's some news for you.

 

Halo 5 isn't Halo CE, stop trying to balance the game around it.

 

Halo CE had a useless Needler, so should Halo 5 have a useless Needler? Of course not.

 

Halo CE had a jump delay, so should Halo 5 have a jump delay? No.

 

Halo CE had instant kill vehicle physics, so should Halo 5 have the same? Definitely not.

 

Let it be its own game before you judge it.

 

 

 

Probably the second choice.

I know CE had flaws, however it's core gameplay is the best we have ever had. We should use it as a reference.

 

And if you think the second is more competitive then WHAT THE HELL ARE WE ARGUING ABOUT? Because that is literally all I've been trying to say.

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First off your first paragraph is contradictory. You said less predictable. That means more random. Next, you are putting yourself as a spectator above the needs if the competitive player. Imagine for a minute that you were playing the game for a shot at $1 million. You would want it to be as random and fair as possible right? You do to want to be at a "disadvantage" against a guy that has a better utility weapon than you do. Sure we all love when people make amazing plays when they should've died. But we shouldn't create those experiences as the norm. It's not fair to the players.

 

DMR bloom is an example of actual randomness. A pistol vs BR is not random.

 

By the same token, you fail to consider what's best for eSports and the spectators. You have to make a compromise man. You keep pushing your optimal competitive settings into these discussions when you and I both know those settings will never happen (removing all other rifles completely and pure pistols). Do you think these are my optimal competitive settings? Hell no. But I am willing to compromise. I'm discussing these settings relative to what 343 is willing to do, and I know for a fact the other rifles aren't disappearing. The weapons can get nerfed or buffed, but they are not leaving. If you can at least accept that then there might be some thing we can actually agree on. Your "why have these weapons when all we need is pure pistols" argument is getting old and is not a realistic approach (even if it means more competitive). It will continue to be a circular argument that never ends.

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DMR bloom is an example of actual randomness. A pistol vs BR is not random.

 

By the same token, you fail to consider what's best for eSports and the spectators. You have to make a compromise man. You keep pushing your optimal competitive settings into these discussions when you and I both know those settings will never happen (removing all other rifles completely and pure pistols). Do you think these are my optimal competitive settings? Hell no. But I am willing to compromise. I'm discussing these settings relative to what 343 is willing to do, and I know for a fact the other rifles aren't disappearing. The weapons can get nerfed or buffed, but they are not leaving. If you can at least accept that then there might be some thing we can actually agree on. Your "why have these weapons when all we need is pure pistols" argument is getting old and is not a realistic approach (even if it means more competitive). It will continue to be a circular argument that never ends.

You know I got chewed out for speaking about what I think should happen since the ideal settings seemed unreachable. We have to keep trying to push the beat settings possible. Then, if we get told no, we go from there. I am saying my ideal settings because that is what I believe HCS should be. The most competitive version of Halo 5 possible. All you had to say was "ideally if we could have the most competitive settings you are right" and we would never argue. After that I would hear what you said and then we could talk about your settings and I would think about it. I was under the impression that what you were saying is what you believed were the most competitive settings. @@cookies4you is this relevant to our debate?

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There is a reason the AR was fine in CE. It's because the actual gun had no real advantage. How many times do you see pro Halo CE players pull out their AR and press R? Never. The gun was fine in that Zane because of QC and melee speed. The actual gun didn't beat the pistol at anything. Guess what the AR can do in Halo 5? Beat the pistol in close range. Consistently. Red flag hellooooo

 

Well the AR is a close range gun of course it should be able to reliably win in close range hellooooo. It shouldn't be easy to outclass an AR in close range with a Magnum. It should be rewarding just like when getting a cross-map kill, especially on a Sniper.

 

It only makes perfect sense.

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Well the AR is a close range gun of course it should be able to reliably win in close range hellooooo. It shouldn't be easy to outclass an AR in close range with a Magnum. It should be rewarding just like when getting a cross-map kill, especially on a Sniper.

 

It only makes perfect sense.

No the actual AR didn't win in close range. Like as a gun it wasn't better than the pistol at all. If you took away The ARs melee speed and QC ability it would be useless. That's the point. As an auto weapon it didn't beat the skill weapon in any range.

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You seriously don't get it. I'll ask you one question. Your answer will determine whether I continue this conversation.

 

Do you think Halo 5 would be more competitive as it is now, with the AR the way it is, the smgs on the map with the same stats and all the other rifles too, or just pistol starts, all rifles removed and AR and SMG removed as well.

 

Which option is more competitive?

 

 

To be honest, more diverse attack options as far as weapons go could make it more tactically competitive.

 

However Pistols only would make it more twitch reflex competitive.

 

The idea is to get the best of both worlds.

 

I thought Halo wasn't just a twitch shooter. That you also really have to think about your plays.

 

You know, tactically???

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we should really look at halo 5 more like a classic arena shooter than we do a halo game, as thats what 343's direction for the competitive sandbox is leaning towards.  Right now it seems 343i is trying to push for all the weapons in the sandbox to be used, rather than be thrown out the window, which I don't see a problem with. The real problem lies in the weapon placement on the map, and how many duplicates there are of these weapons. 

 

If there aren't any duplicates for lower tiered weapons on the map, and we have AR, (4sk) pistol starts I think we have ourselves a pretty good halo game as long as the weapons are placed in appropriate spots.

 

The only problem with this is that its such a huge change from the previous way halo has been played, and I don't think very many people can change the way they look at halo

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To be honest, more diverse attack options as far as weapons go could make it more tactically competitive.

 

However Pistols only would make it more twitch reflex competitive.

 

The idea is to get the best of both worlds.

 

I thought Halo wasn't just a twitch shooter. That you also really have to think about your plays.

 

You know, tactically???

I am sorry, but holy crap everything you said is completely wrong. Do you know what a twitch shooter is? Because based on that statement you have no idea. Was CE a twitch shooter? Halo 2? Halo 3? The sandbox being limited to niche weapons that full very specific roles, a utility weapon and power weapons is what I want.

 

Where the hell did you come up with twitch shooter? You have to land 5 shots (hopefully 4) before your opponent. That is the opposite of a twitch shooter.

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You know I got chewed out for speaking about what I think should happen since the ideal settings seemed unreachable. We have to keep trying to push the beat settings possible. Then, if we get told no, we go from there. I am saying my ideal settings because that is what I believe HCS should be. The most competitive version of Halo 5 possible. All you had to say was "ideally if we could have the most competitive settings you are right" and we would never argue. After that I would hear what you said and then we could talk about your settings and I would think about it. I was under the impression that what you were saying is what you believed were the most competitive settings. @@cookies4you is this relevant to our debate?

 

I understand that we should push for the most competitive settings and I was surprised how much we were able to influence the post-beta changes. But now Halo 5 is a few months away and a lot of things are cemented in place now. If I were re-writing the next Halo game I would give my ideal competitive settings, but H5 is pretty much set in stone so I gotta make some compromises. A stronger pistol (whether it be a 4sk buff or a simple RoF buff), limited precision rifles around the map, instant OS effect when picked up, and better weapon placements are what I think 343 can do within the short time frame, so I'll be pushing for those things.

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I understand that we should push for the most competitive settings and I was surprised how much we were able to influence the post-beta changes. But now Halo 5 is a few months away and a lot of things are cemented in place now. If I were re-writing the next Halo game I would give my ideal competitive settings, but H5 is pretty much set in stone so I gotta make some compromises. A stronger pistol (whether it be a 4sk buff or a simple RoF buff), limited precision rifles around the map, instant OS effect when picked up, and better weapon placements are what I think 343 can do within the short time frame, so I'll be pushing for those things.

Okay I see what you are saying now. I guess I agree since we are pushing for the most likely thing to happen.

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No the actual AR didn't win in close range. Like as a gun it wasn't better than the pistol at all. If you took away The ARs melee speed and QC ability it would be useless. That's the point. As an auto weapon it didn't beat the skill weapon in any range.

 

 

Yeah I know. Its not a niche weapon if it isn't even good in its own niche.

 

The Shotgun beats the Pistol in close range consistently as well, and you only have to pull the trigger once. Instant kill. Takes infinitely less skill than the AR. Should that be made useless too?

 

BTW look at my post on auto burst-fire tweaks that I believe would make them more competitive. What would you do then?

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Yeah I know. Its not a niche weapon if it isn't even good in its own niche.

 

The Shotgun beats the Pistol in close range consistently as well, and you only have to pull the trigger once. Instant kill. Takes infinitely less skill than the AR. Should that be made useless too?

 

BTW look at my post on auto burst-fire tweaks that I believe would make them more competitive. What would you do then?

Shotgun is a map pick up that's why I'm fine with it. There's usually only 1. If there was one way I would allow it then that would definitely help balance it. Make it horrendous if you spray and accurate if you 3 burst that would work a lot better.

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I am sorry, but holy crap everything you said is completely wrong. Do you know what a twitch shooter is? Because based on that statement you have no idea. Was CE a twitch shooter? Halo 2? Halo 3? The sandbox being limited to niche weapons that full very specific roles, a utility weapon and power weapons is what I want.

 

Where the hell did you come up with twitch shooter? You have to land 5 shots (hopefully 4) before your opponent. That is the opposite of a twitch shooter.

 

So twitch shooter isn't the term I'm looking for (that should tell you how much I don't like playing those BS games).

 

What I meant was say, for example, gunskill. In the moment. Strafing. Aiming. Reflexes. Naturally making use of cover Stuff that you don't really have to actually think about.

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To be honest, more diverse attack options as far as weapons go could make it more tactically competitive.

 

However Pistols only would make it more twitch reflex competitive.

 

The idea is to get the best of both worlds.

 

I thought Halo wasn't just a twitch shooter. That you also really have to think about your plays.

 

You know, tactically???

 

There is zero tactical depth in having more than 1 utility rifle. I'm one of the biggest supporters of trying to make Halo more tactical and less thumb-centric, but the decision-making involved with picking up a BR/DMR is as 'tactically competitive' as deciding when & where to Sprint.

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Shotgun is a map pick up that's why I'm fine with it. There's usually only 1. If there was one way I would allow it then that would definitely help balance it. Make it horrendous if you spray and accurate if you 3 burst that would work a lot better.

 

Yeah if autos are going to be in full auto should be punished, burst firing rewarded.

 

The Gears of War 3 Retro Lancerkind of firing mechanics is what I'm thinking of.

 

They are somehow so close to perfecting autos yet so far away at the same time.

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I honestly never knew people where so attached to H1s pistol until I game to this website. 

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So twitch shooter isn't the term I'm looking for (that should tell you how much I don't like playing those BS games).

 

What I meant was say, for example, gunskill. In the moment. Strafing. Aiming. Reflexes. Naturally making use of cover Stuff that you don't really have to actually think about.

the purpose of having one utility weapon is to solidify the fighting. Unless you have a power weapon you usually walk around with you utility weapon since it's the most viable option overall. Now at certain points you can switch to a niche weapon that's better suited, but you have to pick it up and use it properly. If we have a DMR BR LR etc. then that central aspect is gone. Now you can no longer guarantee the winner of the fight was the better shooter. It becomes more about "what rifle you have" instead. The fights are now unfair.

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There is zero tactical depth in having more than 1 utility rifle. I'm one of the biggest supporters of trying to make Halo more tactical and less thumb-centric, but the decision-making involved with picking up a BR/DMR is as 'tactically competitive' as deciding when & where to Sprint.

Exactly

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AR in Halo 1 didn't have zoom and The Pistol was the only precision weapon besides the sniper.

 

The sandbox was simple (in a good way) and different, Halo 5 is cluttered with 5 precision weapons plus the sniper.

The scope on the Assault Rifle is useless after the beta. While it does reduce spread every so slightly, you're wasting your time scoping in.

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