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stunt_man

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Posts posted by stunt_man


  1. On the anecdotal evidence from Evo 2014 prep: I know it is insignificant. But since you pulled out your anecdotal evidence, I pulled out mine. I do agree with you, though, that it should be ignored. At the end of the day data must be king here. Because the differences (lagwise) are imperceiveable. Too bad it is not possible to do a double-blind randomization test.

     

    What neglible lag that is not present with every other CRT? As the MIMO test shows, also CRTs can be laggy: https://smashboards.com/threads/work-in-progress-perfect-setups-tv-monitor-console-capture-device.355292/page-7#post-21307864

    Now we're talking. Good find. The CRT's that I've seen used by the majority of the community are likely "Flat late-era CRT TV's" which are listed as having "heavy lag". However, there are models such as the Sony Trinitron (certain generations/models #'s) as well as some Samsung's that have been reported to "feel" better than others. Again, anecdotal evidence, but when multiple people are reporting the same discrepancy between models it's worth considering.

     

    More importantly: we are talking about fractions of a frame of lag at worst for the LCD setups with Elgato/Avermedia converters. It is inconceivable that this can be noticed, since that would require players to actually know when each frame (of the 30 per second) starts and begins. This is because the frames constitute sections of time within button presses are registered. Two button presses spaced out evenly may therefore give different results depending on when in the first frame the button is pushed. Read (and study) the section entitled Console "Lag" in the MIMO piece, where Fizzi eloquently explains frame-based lag.

     

    The only potential (but implausible) reason I can see for why some good players allege that LCD setups "feel wrong" would have to be that there is something other than lag that matters. The only other technical difference between CRTs and LCDs I can think of is the interlacing. That should not be a negative, but I guess some may not like it. Other than that, I am at a loss.

    Again, as far as the testing method goes, I stand by my point that measuring button presses might not be relevant to CE. No one's missing double-melee's because of screen delay, it's just not that type of game. A different testing method ought to be used to measure responsiveness in right-stick movement, if it's even possible.

     

    EDIT: I'm not hard to convince but the rest of the LAN community will be. It might seem like I'm nitpicking but I find it hard to swallow that people's apprehensions about LCD's have been unfounded all this time. Granted, a typical "lag-less" LCD setup is pretty specific and may only have a niche-sized userbase.

     

    I'm not going to be investing in any further experiments but I'd be interested in seeing some top players do a side-by-side comparison of the ideal setups. As anecdotal as it may be, it's those players that need to be convinced.


  2. Right, I know that. I was just wondering how Dman captures the VGA signal. What cap card. Unless you convert the VGA signal back to a component or HDMI format, VGA capture cards are called "Frame grabbers" and are typically $300+

     

    Personally I would use the Avermedia ET110 to convert the VGA into HDMI then use a HDMI capture card.

     

    http://avertv.avermedia.com/product/ProductDetail.aspx?Id=599

    Or you could split the component signal before the VGA converter/connector and use a normal component cap card.


  3. @stunt_man: I think your assertion that Smashers say "CRT or bust" does not fit well with the facts.

    Fair enough, but my main point is more about how accessible & inexpensive an analog/CRT setup is compared to the equivalent LCD setup, with only a minor loss in visual quality (480i vs 480p).

     

    Firstly, the convincing technical proof that the delay for an Component -> HDMI conversion induces less lag than many CRT screens. There is thus no difference in lag that can be scientifically measured. Any perceived difference must therefore come from elswhere, e.g. that players fell more at home with interlaced images.

    Still need to consider the fact that Halo and Smash are two different games. Yes, Smash requires frame-perfect precision to pull off combos, but Halo requires a different kind of precision. I don't know how to put it mathematically, but is it not possible that the "feel" of the right stick's input (aiming) might be influenced by the "negligible" lag the the test results show from that article?

     

    It should be noted that I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here. I'm not claiming that the research is wrong or anything like that, but from what I've seen from the articles you posted and from my own findings, negligible lag is present in setups involving an LCD. What's up for debate is whether or not this negligible lag can actually be perceived by the player.

     

    Secondly, LCD monitors was even seriously considered for Evo tournaments as far back as in 2014. However, it was dropped due to risk of random blackouts (not lag) with the Avermedia LGP. Whether LCD setups have been used at Evo 2015 and 2016 I don't know. But the point is that the very top smashers in 2014 actually approved of the LCD setups.

     

    The smashers you are talking to must then be either (a) not as good as they claim, or (b) of a particularly superstitious kind...

    To be fair, the article you just referred to doesn't contain any data, just reported player endorsements about the setup. The first article you posted is far more relevant. It'd be the equivalent of McDick saying that Legend and Patch both played on an LCD setup and said it feels OK.

     

    On a sidenote, a few posts down there's a reply about a Neoya Wii2hdmi converter. That's the same company that used to make the X2VGA. Shame they discontinued it.

     

    tl;dr: There is a foolproof option, and that is to use an Elgato/Avermedia and do component->HDMI conversion, then connecting to a lagless monitor. Those who say otherwise refuse to accept scientific evidence. (Bonus: this setup will also make you able to stream & record.)

    The only scientific evidence I see is that there is negligible lag compared to a CRT setup. Again, the question remains: can this negligible lag be perceived by players? I would argue that the testing method used in the first article doesn't necessarily apply to CE aiming.


  4. I also have done some research on this. Let's get down to it:

     

    Option 1: BIG ASS TVs

     

     

    My fist solution was to find 480p CRT tvs that don't post process the component signal and don't weigh a 100 lbs. I had very little success with this. Everything on the market/Craigslist is huge/heavy unless you can find RGB monitors. These were used for video production in the 90's-00's. They are hard to find, expensive and heavy. As well, you have the problem of connecting to them because most of them use BNC connectors. You can read up on them here: http://retrorgb.com/rgbmonitors.html

     

    RGBMonitorsPage.jpg

     

     

    Results: 480p tvs are hard to find or laggy or too big/heavy to be practical.

     

     

     

    Can't comment on this unrealistic option, pockets not deep enough.

     

    Option 2: CRT PC Monitors

     

     

    Fat Old school PC monitors are CRT, typically 15''-19'' and support 480p no problem. So it meets all my requirements. It's lagless, weighs about 40-50 lbs, and supports 480p. There are only 3 problems with this solution. 1. Can you find them. 2. They don't have sound. 3. How do you connect the OG Xbox to them, they only have VGA inputs.

     

    Assuming your can find a good one that is a good size, the sound problem is solved with a cheap set of pc speakers. The serious problem is how to connect the Xbox to them. This became a huge problem, I did a ton more research on this and found a great solution. Scroll down to VGA Input Solution.

     

    o9etk7.jpg

     

    Results: This is a very solid option. Only problems are setting up speakers at a LAN, connecting the Xbox to the VGA input and finding these old ass monitors. Ultimately this is a very good option for lowest input lag and great picture quality. *NOTE* NOT a good option if you use a component to VGA converter box, they make lots of lag 20-30 ms. See VGA Input Solution.

     

     

     

    Can you show me exactly where you see that there is 20-30 ms of lag with a component > VGA powered converter? Keyword: "powered". I haven't seen any comparisons between different splitters with actual numbers attached.

     

    Option 3: Low-Lag LCDs

     

     

    Modern LCD monitors. Everyone's concern is LAG. So I started researching input lag and found that plenty of people have already done all the work for me. Specifically the fighting game community. 

     

    They conducted input-lag tests on 2 of the fastest monitors available. MLG Benq RL2455hm, and the ASUS VH236H. Using CRT monitors as a reference lag of 0.00 ms. These LCD monitors lag between 1.99 - 2.03 ms. That is equal to 0.1 of a single frame. IF connected with a legit VGA cable from your source and there is no in-between device slowing things down. Like a capture card.

     

    Here are some great articles on their findings: 

    http://www.meleeitonme.com/this-tv-lags-a-guide-on-input-and-display-lag/

    https://smashboards.com/threads/work-in-progress-perfect-setups-tv-monitor-console-capture-device.355292/

     

     

    So the lag is ~1/10th of a single frame and the xbox plays at 30fps. So the lag is effectively 1/300ths of a second behind CRTs. If you find yourself complaining about the lag, it's more likely CPU lag on the xbox or network lag on your switch. 

     

    Results: This is probably the solution I will go with. LCDs are light weight, support 480p, lag is negligible and these units have built in speakers. The only issue is getting a legit og xbox VGA cable. *NOTE* LCDs are NOT a good option if you use a component to VGA converter box, they make lots of lag 20-30 ms. See VGA Input Solution.

     

     

     

    I've used this solution and it's playable. A huge step up from using a flatscreen TV or similar. However I can't confirm with certainty that the lag is as negligible as you (and that smashboards article) make it seem. Again, need hard data about powered component > VGA converters.

     

    VGA Input Solution

     

     

    Connecting the OG xbox to a VGA input is a messy problem. There are many converters out there, but I do NOT recommend any of them. They all create significant display lag. 

     

    So my first solution was to purchase a component to VGA connector (NOT converter). This device will work, IF your monitor supports sync-on-green. If it does not support S-O-G, there will be no image. Most Monitors do NOT support SOG.

     

    178535.jpg

     

    Then I started searching for Official OG xbox VGA cables. MS never made a VGA cable. So the modding community made their own and for years they were produced and sold. But now they can't be found. A 3rd party company made a product called x2VGA that worked but I personally think it's a converter that creates some lag. They are no longer produced either.

     

    So I did more searching and found a custom Xbox designer in Germany that makes these cables. They are direct Xbox VGA cables. They take the YPbPr signal from the video port and route the signal to the correct VGA pins to produce a RGB signal that ANY monitor can see. Best of all it's lagless. No conversion. 

     

    If you want one PM me. I'll get you in touch with the creator. This one cost me 37 Euros - shipping included. 

     

     

    mtxefFw.jpgOUbTVRp.jpg

     

    There is 1 major problem! The Xbox was never made to show it's colors in RGB mode, so all the colors appear with a severe green tint.

    JhPOeuz.jpg

     

    There is a good solution. You must have a modded xbox and use the Frosty VGA boot disc. It tells your xbox to boot into RGB mode and corrects all the colors. PM me and I'll send you a link to dl it. You can also use a VGA bios but I didn't want to mess with that because you run the risk of messing up your xbox. Plus if you want to LAN on component cables all you do is take out the boot disc.

     

    rbbnKjq.jpg

     

     

    Can you elaborate on this? Specifically "modded xbox" and "Frosty VGA boot disc." Why is the DL link and vendor of the connector private? Is there any more information about this? Is a hard mod required?

     

    Capture/Live Stream a VGA connection

     

     

    So now the problem is, how do we capture VGA video for streaming and game recording? This answer is also complicated. There are VGA capture cards, but they are expensive and crappy and they will create more input lag. You could duplicate the VGA signal then convert 1 signal back to component and capture with the HDPVR but I don't suggest this.

     

    My suggestion is to use this monitor. The BenQ RL2460HT. This monitor is super fast just like the other BenQ and has a HDMI pass-thru. It will output your xbox VGA video signal to HDMI. Now you can capture your games with no additional lag since the video goes to the monitor first then is passed to the capture card.

     

    http://gaming.benq.com/gaming-monitor/rl2460ht

     

    conventional-output.png

     

     

     

    *NOTE* I have not had a chance to LAN with the LCD set-up yet. So I can't say for certain how it feels. PM me for details on the VGA cable and where to find the VGA boot disc.

     

    (Lets go Atlanta boys, time to LAN.)

    I can confirm that the BenQ RL2460HT's HDMI output only works with HDMI input. So you cannot do VGA > HDMI output. I have this model. Incidentally it has the same performance as the older Benq RL2455hm.

     

    I've gotten good results with my BenQ RL2460HT using a powered Startech VGA > Component converter:

     

    https://www.startech.com/ca/AV/Converters/Video/YPbPr-Component-to-VGA-Converter-with-Audio~CPNT2VGAA

     

    It's expensive but it seems to the job. I found out about it at the bottom of this article:

     

    https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/1q487p/got_my_new_lag_testing_setup_aka_the_best_smash/

     

    Here's more data:

     

    https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/wiki/lag (scroll down to the Adapters/Converters section)

     

    Now, all this being said, I spoke with some high-level Smash players in Montreal, and the general consensus is CRT or bust. High-level CE players will tell you the same, with some exceptions. I consulted Pacmayne on the matter last year and he told me that he used a CRT monitor with an X2VGA and it didn't lag at all. He said he had tried some other solutions as well but this was best.

     

    Meanwhile, this is my setup:

     

    unknown.png

     

    The difference between S-video and component 480i is negligible in regards to visual quality, and s-video splitters/wires/etc are cheaper than their component counterparts. Also, s-video inputs seem to be more common than component inputs for CRT TV's, from what I've seen.

     

    There may be a near-perfect solution for playing CE on 480p but experiments on this subject are costly and accessories aren't getting any easier to find. I can't imagine the community adopting 480p as a new standard, especially if it requires ordering rinky-dink connectors from Germany and changing the soft-modding process that everyone uses.

     

    I'll be keeping an eye on this. If there's a simple solution that means I don't have to transport my 150 lb Sony Trinitron CRT's, I'm all ears.


  5. Maybe if people like you didn't QTB everytime a halo came up you didn't like and just played the game, the H3 community wouldn't get shit on so much. No matter how many times standoff ctf appears, I've never QTB, but as soon as anything CE appears the game starts with people betraying and 75% of people quitting. I'd love to get an actual 8v8 waterworks game on H2 with both teams trying to win but it ends up a 5v2 because all the h3 or quit kids.. do just that. I have enjoyed plenty of games of H3 btb, but its a multigame playlist and it'd be nice to be able to play all the games without them being ruined by selfish children.

     

    Don't blame fans of specific titles for 343's absolute garbage mechanic that is mixed playlists in ranked matchmaking. I've said it before and I'll say it again: mixed playlists have been a huge contributing factor to fans' negative experience in matchmaking since launch, and are a piss-poor, lazy design decision.

     

    We all have a favourite title in the franchise. 343 is forcing players to play a game they don't enjoy for the supposed benefit of "quicker matches". The only thing this design has done is pit different groups of passionate fans against each other in the pre-game screen.

     

    It's stupid and if you disagree with me I'll fight you.

    • Upvote (+1) 9

  6. Hey guys,

     

    I'm a long time Xbox Halo 1 fan and just found out about the PC custom edition and Halo 1: Final the other day. I'm working on a modded Xbox or two for me and my friends to play Final and want to check out the custom edition on PC as well. My only issue is I can't find a PC edition to download and my computer doesn't have a disc drive to install a physical disc. If possible I want to avoid buying an add on disc drive. If anyone here knows of a place to download it or knows of any other solutions it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

     

    Join the Discord room in my signature and ask about Custom Edition in the main chat


  7. I find it hard to believe that something as precise as a computer is more likely to be the cause of players' perceived inconsistencies than sleep deprivation, hunger, adderall, alcohol, mood, or just simply being a human who cannot perform the same action repeatedly with 100% efficiency. 

     

    Preach


  8. This so much. I have never seen such a terrible set of playlists I knew we were fucked the day the playlists were announced (1 week before launch).

     

    I was referring more to the playlist model than the playlist selections. Playlist selections can be corrected, but the playlist model can't be fixed by simply changing the selections. The model used in MCC could pass for a single title, but when you have 4 titles in a collection, that model should be reviewed and adapted. I'm not 100% sure how many playlists are in MCC, but I'll guess around 13. How many playlists were there in Halo 3? I'll guess probably around the same number.

     

    So now you have the same amount of playlist selections for one game as for a collection of 4 games.

     

    They may have taken the "just as you remember it" a little too far in this case.


  9. Honestly I hope 343 ignores us officially because they'd just try to take it over and dump all over what makes it special. I think they technically own IP rights for halo 1.

     

    I think this this is one of the main issues. 343 probably can't officially support a modded version of the game. And even if they could, they would gain very little seeing as it would only open the discussion about CE on MCC, and they certainly aren't going to set themselves up to go down that road.

     

    @@McDick Keep 'em coming man. It's great to see CE getting treated with due professionalism and respect after all these years. Hopefully the community will only grow from here on out and we continue to see great events like Beach LAN pop-up year-round.

     

    EDIT: Hmm looks like no one posted the link to the finals yet:

     

    • Upvote (+1) 6

  10. I love CE more than most people but what evidence is there that the 4v4 list was popular?

     

    What evidence is there to the contrary? 343's list? The same 343 with the infamous 11%?

     

    All I can say is I played the hell out of that playlist and found matches quickly. Why remove it at all? People were playing in it... Is it because they can't code for shit and their list is limited to a certain number of selections? Or some high-level decision that decides that two CE playlists is too much?

     

    The playlist model in MCC is absolute horseshit

    • Upvote (+1) 3

  11. Is there a place where one can follow the technical/development discussions regarding Halo 1: Final? On another forum, on discord, or something?

     

    Halo 1: Final is no longer in development. Focus has shifted to NHE. You can find some info here:

     

    http://www.halo1final.com/NHE/#

     

    Development discussions remain private due to their technical nature, and due to the fact that decisions are rapidly being made in order to progress. More frequent blog updates would be nice, but on the other hand there's value in keep things under wraps until there's something to show. If the discussions were more open Jeff, insidi0us and Dman would have encountered must more resistance from the community and they wouldn't have been able to actually release anything so quickly.


  12. This is part of the reason I'm not always convinced dedicated servers are actually a good thing for pc games.  Basically, the people who run the dedicated servers don't have much of a grasp on game balancing theories or are not particularly smart so you end up with everything being least common denominator settings: max players, popular map(s).  Some servers do it fairly well with CTF games that can last over a day(s) and you can rejoin with your stats from the previous session, with different people hopping on etc like one gigantic battle.  So that's actually pretty cool but I find these sort of servers are pretty rare.

     

    But back to the main point: Every server ends up as 16 player cluster****s.  I think CoD Black Ops is probably the most egregious example of this.  It's essentially unplayable if you're not a fan of 18 players on Nuketown.  This is a pattern that is constantly repeated in games with server browsers.  Ultimately though, we're the niche and we have to deal with that and server browsers tend to do more good than bad when there isn't any runaway oversaturation of one or two types of game settings.

     

    I wouldn't blame the infrastructure for what bad server hosts put up in their mapcycles. I'm hosting three 2v2 servers and can get proper gametypes going when I need to thanks to the Discord group. I would take community-hosted dedicated servers over developer-ran "dedicated-servers-but-not-really" with whatever they decide are the best settings for the community.

     

    At least with community-hosted dedicated servers we can change/fix things, especially with an old game. How much support do you think Halo 5's or MCC's online platform is going to be getting 15 years from now?

     

    I honestly couldn't care less what other players want to play. Part of the whole issue with playlist-based matchmaking is that players are stuck with whatever the developer decides are the "right" gametypes to be played, since you can't just have playlists for every possible gametype variation. Players should have the ability to play whatever gametype they want, or at least have a large variety of gametypes to choose from.

     

    That being said, a playlist-based competitive playlist is the best model for serious games, but 343's and even Bungie's implementation could have been better. It would be cool to have a series-based playlist where players are matched together for a best-of-5 on a fixed mapcycle.


  13. One thing I do find annoying is the fact that the CE playlist is 2v2.  There's me looking for some 4v4 rat race KOTH, no chance.

     

     

    There used to be a CE 4v4 playlist that was quite popular, but 343 in their infinite wisdom removed it.

     

    I hate to beat a dead horse but they really should have included a custom games browser and included the option to enable join-in-progress

    • Upvote (+1) 3

  14. Whoa super cool, we would go every weekend if we could run 2v2s for sure. Where's it located, any place I can find additional info?

    This weekend and next I won't be able to commit, but any weekend after that is free game. Are you in Montreal? Or just close? Do you know any other CE players in the area?

     

    Who is in Montreal? There's a film festival there that I've been looking to attend, someone to put me up would be the tits. Some h1 too at the same time...?

    I'm in Montreal. Man if you're in town I'll have to set up another LAN @@VinnyMendoza @@unheeding When's the festival?


  15. Halo Custom edition, is impossible to play properly

    The only ones playing are mexicans typing jajaja in the chat and having a ping of around 222, causing them to gain a mysterious teleportation ability which seem to block every shot from my magnum.

    This is my personal experience just saying

    You gotta join the Discord and ask for games, people get on all the time. Just tag @Controller Master Race

    • Upvote (+1) 1

  16. We've been testing the rest of the Halo 1.5 maps, bug-crunching and optimizing some of the fixes for better server performance. On the server side of things, I'm still working out optimal hosting and configuration before putting up the 4v4 & FFA servers (2v2 will always be the main focus).

     

    New stuff: the kill feed is now correctly being displayed via the blue text, instead of in the chat (like it is on Xbox). This is due to a new HAC2 update. Also included in the HAC2 update is the hac.dll timer fix that is listed in the OP. hac.dll is no longer required as long as your HAC2 got updated (you'll be able to tell fairly quickly by joining one of the servers - if the elapsed time counter is jumping all over the screen, you aren't running the latest version - but it should update automatically). Some other very exciting news is that the SAPP server mod is being updated again. Newest update features the inclusion of a timer fix that no longer requires the use of an external LUA script (the script is currently being used in Montreal, LA and Amsterdam servers). The LUA script has been known to cause issues (ex: Rat Race crashes upon load, also intermittent crashes may be related to this script) so once I do some testing we will be able to retire the script from the configuration, effectively simplifying the server setup which ultimately results in better stability and less downtime.

     

    I'm still waiting on a good teleporter shader fix. I also need to review the sound removal mod that is used in NHE (I applied the same mod to my maps but some sounds still seem to play - not sure if this is the case on Xbox as well, need to do some side-by-side testing).

     

    When I have some actual progress to report, I'll make a traditional update like I've been doing. Progress has slowed but hasn't halted. I've been busy (mostly LANing NHE) but fully intend to see this through.

     

    I doubt anyone here is aware of the event, but CE3 will be airing this weekend. It's a kind of a showcase for the Halo PC modding community. Most of the content is not geared towards CE's competitive demographic, but I had initially planned to produce a flashy promo video for the Halo 1.5 maps ports. I've since reconsidered and will not be presenting the project for CE3. When the time comes, appropriate promotional measures will be taken, but I do not intend to release a video with "Coming Soon" at the end.

    • Upvote (+1) 4

  17. To be honest, they aren't bad players. They hit some pretty amazing shots and they do it consistently. They dont have the best Halo 1 knowledge when it comes to spawns and what not, but they have a solid base, IMO. They would be pretty good if they got their full game together.

     

    With that being said, their connections do give them extreme advantages. I don't know if it's correct or not, but I remember someone saying that the Halo 1 PC version was designed with dial up in mind. High ping players are given more magnetism and auto aim to compensate for their bad connections so it's playable for them. Don't know if it's true or not.

     

    When xbox live first came out, I vividly remember the "broadband required" limits plastered all over xbox games as I was a dial up guy throughout high school. I like living in the backwoods, but the internet has always been an issue. We can see the stars at night, but our internet options have always been scarce lol.

     

    Thankfully I finally got broadband. Why was the "no dial up" limitations a thing when almost half the US population was still on dial up, but there isn't a "no 100+ ping" limitation when that's a minority now a days? I had to play Halo at a friends all throughout high school so I didn't fuck up other people's experience. Now Colombians and people with bad connections get to run rampant.

    MCC heavily favors players with bad connections, PC doesn't.

    • Upvote (+1) 1
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