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Everything posted by MultiLockOn

  1. That's some of the shadiest programming I've ever seen. Shame on them. It's one thing to have blatantly stupid mechanics like bloom that are at least conveyed to you, it's another when things are being hidden. I know in Destiny the first attack someone hits you with (PVE) that's not from a sniper rifle or boss hit, will not actually deal damage. You'll get screen feedback and shake and redness but it just acts as a buffer so you know you're being shot at. They also prioritized like 85% of your health in the last 10% of the bar so that you always feel like you're barely surviving the fight and iT fEeLs cOoL. Doom does this as well.
  2. This is an insanely deep rabbit hole you're diving down and I don't want to do the conversation disservice by trying to prove otherwise in an overly simplified manner, so I'm just going to say I don't think that is true in the slightest bit. And I'll leave it at that.
  3. Lecturing me on the productivity of conversation when every post you make sets a precedent of a string of insults followed by actual content [if any] is a little ironic no. I don't believe that something becomes the objective truth because I believe it. I believe there is an objective truth on what is better, and worse, and I try to form my understanding around that standard. Whether it's art, music, movies, writing, and in this case - game design - there is almost always a truth to be found regarding what the correct decision is to make in the context of something. And I think most people subconsciously realize this and act accordingly, otherwise we wouldn't see trends in just about... everything ever created. Why are you even replying if it truly is opinion based? if that's the end all be-all why discuss anything? I'll just say that I think that we should 3d aim in video games using the ABXY buttons and that's my opinion, end of conversation. Clearly we all recognize that there's a goal to be had and some things resonate better with humans than others, some people just interpret that truth more clearly [not a jab]. That's not a fact or an opinion, it's just a line of reasoning. I could probably challenge you to play guitar hero without the track showing what notes are coming, it would be more "difficult" in the sense that the ambiguity would render it nearly impossible. The actual guitar hero "skill" whatever that is, is not more or less difficult. It's the same - press these buttons in the right time relative to each other. Whether or not I show you what that exact timing is, is something else entirely. A successful spring jump isn't feedback, it's the result of doing a spring jump. Feedback for shooting your gun wouldn't be the health bar on the other player's screen depleting, it would be seeing your gun kick on your screen. Seeing the muzzle flash. Hearing the bullets fire. Seeing blood come out of the enemy. That's feedback. I'm making the argument that vibration can be used in a hundred ways to better convey information that is either incredibly hidden or not given to you at all, not do it for you. This is probably your best argument. I don't think it's parallel because the skill in projectile is not simply knowing it exists, it's executing on it. Proper projectile "feedback" is seeing the bullet travel through the air, and if you're a good studio you've properly invested money into tracer rounds and bullet trails to make the effect of an actual moving bullet obvious. Treyarch for example invested about a $million+ for Blackout because it literally was not obvious to half the studio that shot leading was now in Call of Duty. Once the vfx for tracer rounds were implemented lethality went up; not because it made it easier to shoot. But because it just told them what they needed to know and already had to skill to execute on. In this case regarding crouch rumbles preceding, any piece of information really, it's because they're ambiguous mechanics that have little to no explanation. You're not holding the action waiting for the player to press it, you're just showing when. It's up to them to execute on it. By your own mouth you've said you'd rather have everything conveyed through visual/audio feedback; yet literally none exists for spring jumping and about a hundred other mechanics in a dozen games off the top of my head. Can you think of a better way to convey timing for actions like this? Because you'd be hard pressed to find something more subtle / less intrusive than a controller rumble. Especially considering...you know....you can disable it. I'll level with you and say that I suppose I could consider the ambiguity in feeling out the releasing timing and replicating it as a skill, but it pretty obviously plays second fiddle to the actual mechanical skill of the execution. And perhaps an even greater challenge would be conveying these mechanics properly to the player base at wide and now playing against people who are now knowledgeable enough to utilize them with / against you. Whatever 'skill' is lost by conveying the timing to execute an action will easily by made up by now having to perform against players utilizing it on a global scale. EDIT: Quake gives people the option to put a speedometer under your reticle, I can't even begin to convey how useful this was when I was learning to strafe jump; being able to tell what is actually accelerating my movement. It did not make it easier to do, it just told me what was happening. This is about as close of a parallel as I can think of. I dunno, maybe your reticle could have an indicator or opacity shift while crouched to better show the state you're in, and then recognize when to press the jump button. It's hard to imagine very many ways to visually or audibly convey a lot of information that should be done more subtlety. It's like a hierarchy of importance that goes visual > audio > physical.
  4. No it does not. The combo and timing required to execute something does not change, that is true regardless of outside factors. If it becomes easier to execute with additional information that should tell you that the difficulty never originated from the skill required to execute it in the first place, but rather from a lack of information. That's ^ my response to that. A list of toggle able options for what you want to que vibration should remedy in reason to otherwise blanket disable it as a feature. If you want to remove it altogether then that's your own prerogative.
  5. The skill floor wouldn't raise, and the skill ceiling wouldn't lower. The exact timing needed to execute in button sequence of spring jump in this example doesn't change, it's the same with the feedback or not, whether you play with vibration, sound, your TV off. You're just moving the collective skill level of the community up as people who might be ignorant (not, unable) of the mechanic will be introduced to it. Hypothetical; if a menu popped up in the Halo 2 menu that taught people about doubleshotting - would would you think that would do to the skill level of the general game.
  6. Are you actually concerned about making menus more clunky. I'm not going to address the redundancy point again because I feel like I've answered that a dozen times already and it's getting...redundant repetitive. Regardless - if you can toggle it off then it's of no concern to you. Play on mute w/o vibration to your heart's content. The uncrouch vibration was a continuation of the idea of providing better feedback for spring jumping since the mechanic is all but a mystery to nearly the entire Halo population. It's not feedback to tell you that you did something, it's feedback to tell you when you should do something. As in, you learn to hit jump when it vibrates to perfect the spring jump timing. Not, I'm uncrouching therefore the feedback is there to tell me what I already did.
  7. My ideal scenario would be to have a settings menu with a string of toggles where you can individually choose to toggle on and off which vibration ques you want instead of blanket enabling/disabling. -On damage receive -On trigger pull -On uncrouch -On reload state complete -On max sprint velocity -On approaching Mantis footsteps -On thrust recharge -On ground pound ready etc. Could choose what you want, or disable completely if you are so inclined.
  8. Most people that buy surround sound headphones don't instantly become this all-hearing and omniscient source echo location. You have to sit there and train yourself to actually pay attention to directional cues; after some time it becomes second nature and you're no longer actively thinking about it. It's a learned skill like anything else. This also completely ignores how difficult audio mixing, audio attenuation, and all the tech involved with game mixing is. It is absolutely possible for a game to have a poorly implemented audio mix to the point of never truly feeding you what you need to know. Timestamped and timestamped again You probably don't even realize it but even Halo has prioritization of when and what to allow you to hear. There are dozens of systems all the way down that is the game determining what to filter out before it reaches your ears, it's entirely possible that there could be someone shooting a gun right next to you and the audio will literally not be played because the game is determining that something else is more important and should take priority. Properly implemented vibration cues can absolutely have the same effect. Nothing is a good idea until it's done properly. That's what makes an amazing product. Console shooters weren't considered possible until Halo CE. I literally gave an example in Apex in that I'm fully aware of when to slide in console, and not in PC. I asked my coworkers who all play it on PC during their lunch break how long they wait to slide for max velocity and they didn't even know it was a thing because they've only played it with mkb. Well those bullshit examples are the reason I'm the one paid to design these games and you're the one paying to play them.
  9. It's not random. I could play on mute as well and just watch my health bar go down. Does that make audio redundant. Or is it just additional information. Your entire post basically ignores everything I said and opts to regurgitate your same reasoning without addressing anything. I'm actually on the verge of just setting you to ignore. My response to this is literally my prior post, the one you just responded to without reading, clearly.
  10. What people think about vibration is irrelevant to me, I downvoted your past posts because like this current one I'm responding to - they reek of ignorance if I'm going to be perfectly honest with you. You're making insanely bold claims based on past precedent that are pretty easily disregarded with even the smallest amount of imagination. Vibration is nothing but an additional sense being added to your roster. Otherwise you're relying on sight, and sound. Obviously smell and taste are basically guaranteed to never play a role in gaming but touch absolutely can. I don't care what people currently think about vibration because it's historically been done in a pretty poor way. Why wouldn't you welcome any additional sensory input into the realm of possibility? Off the top of my head (quite literally 10 seconds of thought) the spring jump in Halo is something that is horribly misunderstood and underutilized because there is literally no additional information beyond word of mouth as to how it functions, let alone exists. You could probably tie a single rumble to the moment the un-crouch frame passes when you need to press jump so you can begin to learn muscle memory as to when to hit jump for the correct spring jump. Halo 5 already ties a single rumble to the moment the weapon refills the magazine refills the reload animation so you know when to YY, that's a huge step in the right direction. A rumble tied to the exact moment when you have achieved max sprint velocity for slide would be helpful. Or when ground-pound is done queuing in the air so you can release it for an early activation. Military shooters could probably do pulses in line with an increasing heartbeat when you're moments from dying. Gears of war has always had issues with the active reload... ... in that the image you need to stare at to perfect the active-reload is at the top right corner of your screen. While this obviously should probably relocated to the reticle in the center, a rumble when the hash passes the activation mark would go a long way for teaching players when exactly they need to his the reload button again for the active. There's probably a hundred more examples I could come up with if I sat here but I rest my case. Yes you can rely on sight and sound for these things but by that same reasoning you and iceprincess both presented, I could easily just cut out sound. Why introduce sound to distract me when I have eyes? I can see can't I? In the same way you're disregarding vibration as a viable sensory input I could just as easily disregard audio, because in a parallel universe there's about a hundred games that have never implemented audio correctly and it's just as expendable and superfluous as you think vibration is now. I recently interviewed someone for the position of UI/UX artist at the studio I'm at and one of the questions I've asked is, describe a game you think has done UI remarkably well. His answer, was Halo. In which he said when Bungie made Halo CE they made the health state not just tied to visual, but audio cues. In that without ever glancing at the corner of the screen to see your health bar flashing red you know because the audio state implies it with the beep-beep-beep that is infinitely more recognizable. Also every action in Halo is met with a unique sound if the button is pressed but the action isn't possible - reloading with ammo, shooting without reserves is met with a soft click... his only suggestion was to add an additional sound when throwing grenades on an empty reserved is toggled because there's no current feedback for that. Is it possible to always recognize what your health state is at without audio? Absolutely. Is it infinitely improved with additional sensory input? Absolutely, and that applies to vibration the same way. I'm willing to bet if you took a wide study on console-players for apex vs. pc players, the former would have a better understanding of when to slide for maximum momentum vs the latter strictly because the vibration is the single and only que to tell you that you've hit the cap. The fact that historically vibration has been tied to *when shooting, rumble * is of no consequence to me because I can easily see the potential something like vibration has. There's a huge difference between something being fundamental wrong (sprint) and something never have been utilized in the correct way (vibration), and the latter just takes the smallest bit of imagination instead of just clearly brushing it off the table. You making the claims of " I know you don’t like the fact vibration is bad, it just is man." falls in the latter and reeks of ignorance. The worst possible case scenario in this is that, you disable vibration. But when done right that would happen just as often as people decide to play on mute because, audio is just distracting. They have eyes right? Why do you need sound?
  11. I don't get how anyone could possibly be against more options for sensory input, you're just inviting another one of your senses in. Hell if I could somehow SMELL the guns I'd probably think of a way to use that as well (relax Boyo). Also animations often aren't set up to accurately what's happening. I think the fuel rod in Halo 5 has lead me to a lot of early reloads because the magazine enters the gun long before it actually reloads in reality.
  12. It's just a tool. Whether or not it's execution has historically been done well is a different story but I've absolutely found examples that I know to be true for me. I have no idea when I'm hitting the max slide potential in apex on PC because my FOV is wide enough that the speed boost from it blends in. I know it on controller because there's a soft rumble. Halo 5 has a vibration hint when the magazine enters the gun I believe that tells you when you can YY. Obviously a lot of these things as you said can be done through audio but it's nice to have the option. There is such thing as audio overload so it's nice to off load some of their weight when you can.
  13. ^ This is actually very true. There's a lot of studies that show long range shots involving micro-adjustments are easier done on controllers than with a mouse - very difficult to do micro micro adjustments with your hand like that then bumping a thumbstick. Also movement on PC games is usually done just holding W and then turning your mouse because WASD is such a stupid and granular way to move, you loose a lot of the fine granular movement of a thumbstick which makes games like titanfall harder in many ways.There's also the addition of vibration being a great physical form of feedback that doesn't exist on PC peripherals. I can tell you how many steps to take in Apex before sliding for the maximum slide speed because the maximum slide speed triggers a small vibration, I have no such feedback on mkb. Even pressing multiple things at once becomes difficult with mkb, as seen by anyone trying to play Halo 5 on a keyboard. Thrust slide hover clambering is much, much more difficult when you dont have a controller to wrap your hand around. I'd go so far as to say that unless you're playing an input heavy game such as a moba or strategy game, most things are done better on a controller in almost every way.... except aiming. Which is a pretty big deal so most people throw the advantage to mkb. Halo specifically has built itself around burst fire weapons for a long time which also lends itself to thumbsticks well. Mouse aiming is great for tracing, and great for snapping. But something about the cadence of a BR burst involves this weird blend of both of those skills where you're snapping, and then tracking, and then repeats. Which is done really well with a thumbstick.
  14. The ease of securing kills with quad damage vs. natural kills is a much much greater delta than what you find in Halo. It's not unusual for a quake match to end 1 - 1. Quad damage can pretty easily secure you 4 - 8 kills if you just continually rush off their spawn. More in 2's. Also quake drops powerups when someone dies until their timer dissolves. There's been many times I miraculously got a kill on the quad player, only for their teammate to pick it up and continue the rampage. I personally can't think of anything more offensive in any game, even the BFG in Doom's MP is more manageable.
  15. I just wanted to complain about quad damage let me be lol
  16. I could just as easily have an instant kill powerup on the map (which quad isn't too far off of) and use that same exact reasoning. It's possible to have points of contention be fought over something that isn't so blatantly game breaking. Clearly if I can time/collect 30+ health pickups I'm capable of controlling things. It just so happens that losing 1 item as opposed to 30 is somehow outweighing everything else I did correctly. That's not good. If sacrificing every other aspect and skillful element of quake to collect a quad damage is "playing the game well" then it's not a surprise to me that the game is dead. Which is exactly the scenario we're in.
  17. The strength of quad damage in Quake dwarves the strength and bullshit of anything dumb to ever exist in Halo tbh, that powerup is total and complete nonsense. Even at the highest level of champion play, people just run from it and crouch in a corner. Because that's all you can do. Even a full 200/200 stack will go in less than a second from most weapons combo'd with the quad damage. It pretty much single handedly is what gets me to rage quit quake every time I load it up, which is like...almost every day. There's been games where the post game carnage posts my mega health/mega armor pickups as 30+ and the enemies as ~5. Doesn't matter, they got the quad damages. Which means they go on asinine 5 kill sprees in the matter of seconds.
  18. No one gave me the right, that's what objectivity means. I didn't determine it otherwise it would be subjective. Ironically, the most condescending a egotistical thing I find is when someone is trying to discuss mechanics and then the other party devolves into "well, that's subjective". The very idea of objectivity is the most humbling perspective any designer or artist can follow - it means you admit that you determine nothing and simply recognize a truth that exists within everyone. That everybody is capable of inherently recognizing the human nature within us and that there is something we are inexplicably drawn to ("good" game design) and that we're just struggling to interpret that and reach it. You looking at any discussion, any merit of competition, any game, any piece of art, and then instantly devaluing it into "well CE 2's are in my opinion bad" is what I find to be condescending; an undeserved and unwarranted critique. As if I was going to listen to the Moonlight Sonata and respond in kind with "Well I don't like it, it's subjective." 'Competitive' (or, skill ceiling to describe it more accurately) is probably the easiest thing to measure in a game. Average kill times vs perfect kill times, strafe speed, AA levels, outside factors to track, outplay potential.. all numbers that can be easily looked at and digested. Even outside of that, I think everyone whether or not they want to admit it is perfectly capable of inherently recognizing something and how it resonates with them without ever consciously realizing it or stating it.
  19. @Fixaimingsorry Why are you even trying to discuss this if you repeatedly devolve into "Well that's subjective, that's your opinion". Why have any converse at all if you default to that every time you're backed into a corner? It's pretty telling someone doesn't have any more reasoning to stand on when they default to claiming subjectivity. Beyond choosing your favorite color there's objectivity and truth to everything. You denying that doesn't make it any less true, it just makes you wrong.
  20. this is stupid on like 20 different levels and I don't know where to begin to address it.
  21. No they don't go hand in hand but they should. Basically the bane of every complaint ever made in the history of video games can be rooted to something being too strong for the difficulty required using it, not on the merit of strength on its own. Everything, and I mean everything should have its direct functionality and impact tied to its difficulty of use. Otherwise you're just making rock paper scissors.
  22. Implementation is everything, right. So if there was some meter where you had to hit the trigger as the pointer passed a specific point in the middle as it bounced end-to-end for maximum damage, that would be skillful shot pacing. Because there's actually an element of skill to it. You'd be matching a rhythm. You're not just not doing something, you're waiting for something and there is a chance to be worse at it. There's no way to be worse at shot pacing than someone else in Reach, just don't pull the trigger lol. Someone isn't more skillful than me because they just chose to shoot slower. I suppose in theory there would be a non-offensive way to accommodate slower shooting but I'd have to see it. Like I said earlier, Halo already had overheating to fill that void. If they wanted to make the DMR battery or heat powered, whatever, and then you could hit 5 max ROF shots for a perfect kill- at the cost of an overheat that would be a much better solution. Delaying a shot here could mean you could afford a 6th shot, perhaps a 7th before the overheat in case you missed. I suppose the slower you fire here in general the more shots you could afford in the "magazine". More confident players could hit the max ROF every time, less confident players would shoot slower because they know they'd miss. Seems like a pretty perfect relationship to me. EDIT: Not that I care for the entire discipline of shot-pacing, because I truly don't. But those ^ would seem like better ways to implement it.
  23. Shooting someone outside of RRR doesn't magically make waiting any more skillful than if it were to happen within it? Again - there's no specific point you're waiting for to hit the trigger during. You're not matching a specific rhythm, you're literally just not shooting. There's no "best" time to pull the trigger that couldn't have been better if you just waited, longer (until the reticle fully resets). And even then you're just rolling the dice so it's not even clear if it was the right move. You're gambling, and not even an intelligent way. Not shooting isn't a skill anymore than not sprinting is a skill to recharge your health. You'd more accurately call it a discipline. Why is why it irks me when the fall back for bloom is always followed by the inevitable "you just need to skillfully pace your shots". No, not skillfully. You just need to wait however long you feel like waiting. Don't confuse not doing something with being skillful. And reiterating - even as a discipline I don't find it appealing. Just cap the ROF if that's how fast you want people shooting.

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