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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Happy Birthday Shadowrun!


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11 replies to this topic

#1   Teapot

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 06:29 PM

Today marks the release of the greatest tactical shooter to hit consoles! Just a bit of appreciation, and some cool unknown facts that I felt like sharing. I suggest going to the bottom and watching the clips I posted. I fear if I embed them I'll be a media overload and I'll have another ghost thread. Scroll to the bottom to watch some amazing plays.

 

 

shadowrun-xbox360j.jpg

 

(Japanese box art was awesome)

 

Shadowrun turns 8 years old today, and is often regarded as one of the deepest and most competitive shooters ever made. It was praised by the MLG staff and called the greatest shooter since Halo CE. MLG had picked the game up for a season but FASA Studios' doors had pretty much closed the day it released. They were able to squeeze out a patch that had fixed numerous bugs and issues, which left for some awesome gameplay.

 

I've seen numerous mention to other fps games and how they can be "innovative", but this is the game that started all that wild innovation in my mind. Things like Halo 3's regeneration field, Halo Reach's DMR, Bloom, Grenade physics, Halo 4's Prometheon vision, and other hidden Armor Abilities such as a knock off version of teleport and "anti armor abilty" were all ideas taken from Shadowrun. While this might not sound like great additions to Halo, everything worked incredibly well within Shadowrun.

 

I wouldn't even know what to discuss in this thread considering how old the game is as well as the fact that most people here no longer have 360's. However, I'll try to provide some cool stuff I've found over the years. Here is a very very basic guide into competitive Shadowrun back in 2007. This guide is pretty out-dated, so I would really only pay attention to character details, not the strategies or anything else. For example, he dislikes the pistol because he feels it's random, and also says that strafe rifling is worthless. While not ideal it is not true at all, and although the weapons should be and act like hitscan you still have to lead within the bloom of the shot. You're movement/strafe effects you're bullet trajectory much like it did in Halo CE. A very simple way to understand this is to go outside and grab the water hose. Turn the water on and start spinning in a circle while paying attention to the trajectory of the water.

 

X = center of enemies mass. o = center of the cross hair. "(  )" is the widened bloom due to movement penalty. 

 

If the bloom of your cross hair looks like this.. (   o   ) and you're opponent is dead center it should look like this (   X   ) as you're opponent moves to your right, you want to put shift the crosshair over slightly, like so (   o X ). Kinda tricky to describe but it's definitely not the best visual..

 

 

The Ryanator’s 2007 Competitive Guide to Shadowrun, if needed..

 

Spoiler

 

Random cool in game stuff:

  • Tree's are on constant bleed out from the time they are thrown, and disappear roughly 3 minutes and 50 seconds after they are thrown
  • Trees have hit points just like players, and can be shot/naded
  • Minions will bleed out unless inside their circle in which they are cast
  • You can permanently make your minion bleed out by casting the circle on the ceiling
  • It's often a better idea to kill yourself if you are the last one alive rather than give the other team more of an opportunity to earn money
  • Jumping off the map at the end of the round in smoke allows you to keep your weapons for next round.
  • Anti-Mags effect more than the radius in which they "glow" The simplest explanation is that it can still mess up your teleports even though you are in front of the mag looking and teleporting in the opposite direction. It will cause you to teleport only one meter.
  • As long as you have one pip of essence, you can smoke right on an antimag and stay smoked for 3 seconds
  • Classes have different strength levels, which means they do more/less damage with the Katana. This is NOT true for the Artifact. So essentially, Trolls will kill faster using the katana than the artifact, where as the weaker elfs benefit more from doing damage with the Artifact instead of the Katana. (IE: Trolls = 2 katana slices on human, 3 arti swings on human. Elf = 4? Katana slices on Human, 3 arti swings on human)
  • Regardless of the point above, the artifact sucks and is hard to land hits on unlike the Katana.
  • The Shotgun is the only weapon with bullet damage drop off in this game. It's possible to stand far enough back where it can take about 10 shotgun shots to kill an elf.
  • Will edit this point when I figure out just for sure how anti-mag respawn. I was told dynamically after one is destroyed.
  • Different minions do different amounts of damage, and I'll edit this once I find the name of the rarest and strongest minion that can be summoned.
  • Gust has damage drop off and won't knock someone out of smoke after a certain distance
  • Enhanced Vision can still ping players with smoke mapped, but are limited to within 25 meters and the number is very dull/hard to read
  • The distance from Balcony to Balcony is 25.1 meters long
  • Players will drop one grenade by their body if they die regardless if they have two grenades left.
  • Live inactive grenades can be shot (dumb idea unless you're sniping) and is an excellent tactic that has emerged late into the game. (IE purposely trying to stay back waiting for the elf to get the rez, and shooting the grenade right when he comes in to do so)

 

Random cool (sad) developer stuff:

  • Starting with the cool, the shadowrun fps prototype was built off the Halo CE engine. That's why you'll find a lot of similarities with aiming mechanics and movement.
  •  shadow28.jpg shadow31.jpgshadow32.jpg

 

  • There is a missing tech slot when cycling through the skill wheel, but it turns out there were two separate techs scrapped from the game.
  • The first tech slot scrapped was a grapple hook feature "a cross between spiderman's web shooter and batman's grapple gun" Not sure why it was scrapped but its hard to imagine this skills place within the game currently.
  • The second tech slot scrapped was apparently called "hologram" that was apparently scrapped due to the games drop in performance in 8v8 games where multiple tree's, minions, and holograms were constantly summoned. (just another concept taken from shadowrun, and shoe-horned into Halo)
  • When FASA Studios disbanded, the core of the team went to make up 343i's development team, but others also went to bungie, namely the entire brains behind Shadowrun, Sage Merril.
  • Despite rumors for multiple years, there was never a mad editor for Shadowrun.
  • There were however at least 3-4 maps that were cut from the game due to time restraints. To briefly explain why, FASA had numerous issues in development including switching art directors well into development, as well as shifting focus from a single player campaign game to a multiplayer only FPS.
  • 3 of the known map names are Cathedral, Grande, and Midtown. The 4th map was referred to "city streets:
  • I could only find two descriptions for two of the maps. Grande was supposed to be a town underneath an overpass, and Midtown was a night level consisting of multiple sky-scrapers, and lots of teleporting between them. You can fall in-between them and it made glider almost necessary on that map.
  • They decided that it would be better to ship less maps of higher quality than more maps with less quality. The scrapped maps are likely the reason for the late decision to make "small" versions of maps.
  • FASA had a lot of help early on from the counterstrike development team that worked on the 360 version. Although Power Station was their first prototype, they designed Dig Site to be loosely based off of de_dust2. Joe Waters helped them a lot early on.
  • There's a video somewhere on youtube that has way more dislikes than likes. I believe it's with one of the shadowrun dev's talking about cross-platform testing and how console had been edging out M+KB... deemed impossible by youtube and the rest of the interenet, I looked deep into this testing phase..
  • There were no notable console test players, but the only real notable PC test player was Fatal1ty.
  • Console had won the majority of cross-platform tests during development. It wasn't until they scaled down the auto-aim a bit, but the bullet magnetism A LOT.

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#2   Teapot

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Posted 10 June 2015 - 05:34 PM

Yeah, that's right.. I'm bumping my own thread that got 0 replies.  :uncledrew:  :salt:

 

 

 

but really I noticed a small spike in the views despite the thread being on the 2nd page of general gaming and found out why!

 

 

We've had numerous great discussions in the past and he's been incredibly helpful with everything I've asked for. As it turns out, not all the information is correct so I will be looking to devs for more insight, but a lot of this "never been released" info has come from the man Paul himself.

 

The tweet had sparked some interest between the old developers and Paul was gracious enough to look for some pictures for me.

 

Here's 3 pictures of the unfinished and unreleased Shadowrun Map "Grande".

 

H2ggOTN.png

 

CMMjeVV.png

 

9hjYOjU.png


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#3   Gobias

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Posted 12 June 2015 - 03:12 PM

I've seen you mention it before, but could you explain how bloom works in Shadowrun and why it actually works competitively?
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#4   Teapot

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Posted 12 June 2015 - 04:39 PM

I've seen you mention it before, but could you explain how bloom works in Shadowrun and why it actually works competitively?

 

I typed this up throughout the day going back n forth with things. So it's kinda disorganized.. TL;DR sums it up nicely.

 

Sure! Bloom is a mechanic where people are either going to love it or hate it. Even though it works perfectly within shadowrun, I understand a lot of people dislike the mechanic in general. Bloom works really well in this game because of the overall game design combined with how other mechanics effect weapons, such as auto-aim and bullet magnetism.

 

The big difference in Halo and Shadowrun is how Halo's gameplay revolves around being able to run and gun accurately without any penalty. Shadowrun's gameplay is less about running and gunning, and more so about superior positioning. The game still contains close range pistol fights that incorporate strafing, and leading your bullets, but the rifle meta in this game is more about who can control their weapons, bloom, it's kick, and the flinch when being fired at.

 

The major issue in Halo besides the personal preference of disliking the limit on running and gunning to me was the fact that Halo Reach's Bloom was rather ineffective in doing it's job. That job is to reward players who pace their shots and fire accurately versus spamming them. It turns out in Reach the "spammers" had such a high chance of being able to land all their shots at full speed. That will never happen in Shadowrun.

 

Now for Shadowrun.. There's a lot of small reasons why I feel it works well. To start with the actual aiming mechanics, there is a decent amount of auto-aim on the weapons that will help you target and turn your reticle red. However, the bullet magnetism is rather low in this game, and despite the auto-aim helping to pull your weapon on the player, you still need to make a small adjustment to center the rifle on the enemy. The low magnetism alone makes it difficult to be rewarded shots where you aren't centered on the player.

 

The actual level of bloom in the game is very extreme as well compared to Halo, and while it sounds bad, it's actually more beneficial and is key in rewarding the ones pacing vs the ones spamming. While standing your bloom takes longer to come back, and while crouching it reduces the bloom and the time it takes to recover. An additional factor is that there are 3 levels of damage the weapons can do. There's massive headshot incentive in this game that does high damage, but has incredibly tiny hit boxes. There's body shots which I guess we can consider as normal damage, then leg shots which are pretty low. This creates another level of incentive for pacing your shots and being perfect. Elves can get "2shotted" by rifles and it takes 0.5 seconds to do so, however it's rare because they are the fastest class and have tiny heads. The perfect TTK in the game are incredibly fast in this game, but the average kill times are actually pretty long.

 

Besides the elves, nobody else can regenerate health, and are forced to push to a "safe" location to heal up on their Tree. This little note is to put emphasis on the important positioning that shadowrun entails. The player is force to heal in a disadvantageous location unlike how in Halo the player can simply run around a corner regenerate shields and re-engage from any position on the map.

 

The level of satisfaction on getting a clean rifle kill is unparalleled in any other game in my opinion. A 2 shot on an elf feels like getting 2 clean TSK's in a 2v2 match. It's a hard comparison but the level of difficulty to control the weapon combined with hitting such an incredibly tiny hit box is amazing. Even the top players will get loud when they 2 shot an elf, and sometimes 3 shot a human.

 

 

Theres more happening in that clip than I describe above so it might look weird, even when it's slowed down. However I don't even know what I can compare this too. This is more impressive than 9 shotting an OS guy in Halo CE, and is more comparable to doing that, then getting another TSK while you were 1 shot. He's "crabwalking" which means he's crouchwalking sideways at a speed that doesn't apply any additional bloom penalty thats normally tied to the movement. This effects how to shoot as well! So there's tons of factors to determine while using the rifle as well as the pistol and SMG.

 

So inside all this fluff is some key points as to why it works.

TL;DR

 

  • Low magnetism requires "perfect" aiming compared to Halo.
  • Game revolves around superior positioning and teamwork rather than running and gunning or strafing.
  • Bloom is bigger and more effective, leading to an actual balance between pacing versus spamming. Spamming NEVER wins.
  • Times to Kill in the game are INCREDIBLY fast, but Average Kill times are a lot longer.
  • Huge headshot damage incentive rewards perfect aiming to an even higher level.
  • Not being able to regen creates an advantage for the player who landed damage. In Halo the player can re-engage from any position on the map and have a chance.
  • Despite full bloom and strafing with the pistol, you can still control your bullets by leading the player in close range strafe battles. In other words, it's not random like people thought, but not 100% controllable like crouching with a rifle.

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#5   Gobias

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Posted 12 June 2015 - 06:32 PM

^ Interesting post. It sounds like the duels are both cerebral and reactionary, whereas Halo is mainly point-and-click, except for the momentum leading that CE shares with SR. I do remember that if people weren't arguing for the removal of bloom during Reach, they were pushing for more bloom--a lot more. I think natural pacing is a better option for Halo, but I can see how a game based on positioning might find the mechanic useful, sort of like in CS, of course with much longer average kill times. Thanks for the explanation.
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#6   Teapot

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Posted 12 June 2015 - 07:13 PM

^ Interesting post. It sounds like the duels are both cerebral and reactionary, whereas Halo is mainly point-and-click, except for the momentum leading that CE shares with SR. I do remember that if people weren't arguing for the removal of bloom during Reach, they were pushing for more bloom--a lot more. I think natural pacing is a better option for Halo, but I can see how a game based on positioning might find the mechanic useful, sort of like in CS, of course with much longer average kill times. Thanks for the explanation.

 

No problem, and thanks for the interest!

 

Adding more bloom in Halo Reach would have absolutely helped in terms of punishing players who spammed, but would have just further ruined the game in my opinion. It's helping a minor issue while overlooking a major. The beauty of Shadowrun definitely starts at it's core balance. The weapon tuning and aiming mechanics are awesome, but the game was just completely designed with this exceptional balance in mind. A big issue I've had with Halo has been the addition of abilities or techniques because they appeared in other games. I can come up with multiple examples but Enhanced Vision versus Prometheon Vision. As far as I know there was no counter to it in Halo.

 

In Shadowrun it sent out a audible "ping" and it would like on your screen that you were being scanned. When another person on the other team had it, he could see exactly where the ping was coming from and inform his team. However, the counter was buying and mapping smoke, which pretty much made you invisible to those pings at a certain distance, but incredibly difficult to see at close range. Smoke offered other advantages despite acting like a counter to EV and it really made the skill rather useless. You'd think the ability to see the entire team through the walls would be a necessity, but it's very rare that players even buy it these last couple of years. Even in games that last 11 rounds.


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#7   Killmachine

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 04:26 PM

I appreciate this thread Teapot ;_;


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#8   fascination

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 05:11 AM

Interesting post... When does anyone play I'd like to see it play tho... Lol
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#9   ripharambe

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 06:19 PM

Now that it's backwards compatible does anyone​ play it,and will we ever see a sequel?
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#10   TTUVAPOR

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:21 PM

wish it was 60fps :)
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#11   Teapot

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:30 PM

We can let this thread die now. We sent Shadowrun off with a proper LAN Tournament in January, almost a full decade after the game came out which is amazing. Much like Halo, it was cool to meet people I have been playing with for years. The LAN was amazing and spoiled me in terms of now having to play online. Unfortunately after the LAN, I was not able to market the game/community in any way that helped increase the population which imo is the #1 factor for getting games active again. All that happened was old players came back, egos clashed, people formed god squads and nobody catered to the noobs.

 

With that said, my support for Shadowrun basically comes to an end. We did a pretty good job if we were able to get an event through hardwork, but the game has so much facing against it that no matter the effort I put in, little will change. I spent a large deal of time trying to cite how the Halo CE community operates and why we need to follow in their footsteps. Luckily, the Halo CE guys make my life 100x easier. With NHE, new maps, the training mode etc it's something I feel will promote growth while I'm out of ideas to help SR.

 

 

Now that it's backwards compatible does anyone​ play it,and will we ever see a sequel?

 

It received a small boost in population when it went backwards compatible. Ideally it would have been given away as a free game for gold for it to actually boost the population significantly. I haven't played it in two weeks, but there was a pub lobby going at all times. BC hit and there were about 4-5 at all times. We're back to about one or two lobbies.

 

I doubt we will ever see a sequel. This game had horrible reception for numerous reasons, almost none of them relate to the actual gameplay or balance though. This was "proof" in some developers eyes that pure competitive games "don't work" which is far from the truth.

 

wish it was 60fps :)

 

I'd say the majority of the competitive consoles players have switched from Xbox to PC within the last few months. Literally after the event there was a massive switch. While they're on PC, majority still use controller. Seems like once they make the switch they don't come back, the FPS is too nice for them to go back to.


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#12   Wra7h

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 10:31 PM

Bumping this oldie. 

Just a huge thanks for this entire thread Teapot, this was unquestionably one of the best games I have ever played. Thanks for taking me down memory lane in a wonderful way.


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