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Halo Infinite Discussion


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#751   NAK

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 12:25 AM

They confirmed already that the game is for this generation of consoles. We might not even have another next gen. You might not be wrong but its really hard to even guess at that when we don't have a release date on the next generation if it even exists in the same way we've been upgrading. They could just keep inching forward like with scorpio

 

True, I don't expect the OG Xbox One to be able to play Halo infinite though, and even if it does, it'll be a significantly handicapped version of the game. The difference between the way an OG XB1 and a Xbox One X can play a game like Assassins Creed Origins (A game that is almost a year old now) is pretty drastic. Games that come out in the 2019-2020 range probably won't be possible on the older hardware.


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#752   xxcloud7xx

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 12:55 AM

Tbh on the power weapon thing, it is a dumb concept. Weapons on map shouldn't be super easy and effective at the same time. They should be unique and serve their own purpose while also being tough to use in order to reap the rewards. And also be counterable by a good enough player with just the spawn gear. That bit is important.

I don't think that the concept of power weapons/power items is dumb. The purpose of power weapons/power items is to incentivize players to move around the map. I think a crucial aspect to balancing power weapons and power-ups is to have an adequate utility weapon that has a fast minimum TTK similar to Halo 1's pistol and for the sandbox to have niche situational weapons that complements the utility weapon and power items.

Not all power weapons in Halo's sandbox need to be difficult to use in order for them to be balanced. Halo 1's sniper rifle is pretty difficult to use and has a really fast minimum TTK but it isn't really considered a power weapon because it can easily be contested by Halo 1's pistol at close and medium range and it spawns every 30 seconds on most maps. Halo 1's sniper doesn't really incentivize players to go out of their way to contest their opponent for control of it unlike other items such as camo, OS, and rockets do.

The rocket launcher in Halo 1 is considered a power weapon and is pretty easy to use but it is also balanced. Halo 1's rockets are balanced because Halo 1's pistol is adequate enough to be able to empower players to be able to contest their opponents even when their opponents have control of power items such as rockets, camo, and OS. Halo 1's rockets are also balanced due to them spawning every two min on most maps, only spawning with 4 rounds in them, having a slow rate of fire, having a slow reload speed, having a slow projectile velocity, and the 180 glitch. Rockets are also balanced in Halo 1 due to only being able to get two extra rounds when trying to stack a new rocket with an old rocket.

While rockets in Halo 1 are pretty useful at medium range they are pretty risky to use at close range because you can end up accidentally killing yourself with them. Rockets in Halo 1 aren't as useful at long range as they are at close and medium range due to their slow projectile velocity. The roles of the rocket launcher and sniper rifle in Halo 1 kind of swap on BTB maps due to the long lines of sight. For an example on Blood Gulch the sniper spawns every to 2 min instead of every 30 seconds and the rockets spawn every 90 seconds instead of every 2 min.

Rockets in Halo 1 are pretty balanced despite being an easy to use power weapon. I have seen some instances in Halo 1 of players 3 shooting rocket players with their pistol at close, medium, and long range. I have seen some instances in Halo 1 of players sniping rocket players at close, medium, and long range. I have seen some instances in Halo 1 of players taking out rocket players at close range with the plasma rilfe and plasma pistol stun effect by getting the rocket player to kill himself. I have seen some instances in Halo 1 of players killing rocket players at close range with the shotgun. I have seen some instances in Halo 1 of players throwing grenades at rocket players causing the rocket player to misfire his rocket due to the 180 glitch. I have seen some instances in Halo 1 of players baiting rocket players by sitting next to OS and then grabbing OS as soon as the rocket player shoots a rocket at them. I have also seen some instances in Halo 1 of players killing rocket players at close range by double meleeing them with their AR.

https://youtu.be/hlFkkAd2ZL8?t=4m55s
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#753   Basu

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 04:38 AM

Tbh on the power weapon thing, it is a dumb concept. Weapons on map shouldn't be super easy and effective at the same time. They should be unique and serve their own purpose while also being tough to use in order to reap the rewards. And also be counterable by a good enough player with just the spawn gear. That bit is important.

 

(Repped you to offset that neg troll that is somehow still not banned)

 

In the context of Halo 4,5 and Reach to an extent I absolutely agree. Power weapons have become such a joke in recent years that it's hard to even defend the concept anymore. This reached new heights with the first two years of H5, as even low-tier weapons like SMGs, Storm Rifles and all rifles offered insane amounts of upgrades for literally running over them and holding X.

 

And the worst part is that Halo players are now used to this and expect weapon on map to shit on the starting weapon, especially with nonsense like Warzone REQ weapons that take these weapons to ridiculous levels of power.

And 343 is actively destroying the legacy of weapons that did this correctly by making the "Halo One Pistol" and the Reach Grenade Launcher in H5 extremely easy to use and free killing sprees. How am I supposed to explain to a H5 kid that CE's pistol wasn't overpowered and it probably had the best balanced sandbox of the series when 343 remakes the weapon and turns it into a parody of itself? Same with the Reach GL, what used to be a skillful weapon and probably the last time a power weapon required at least a bit of skill to use: 343 remakes it and turns it into a Rocket Launcher with remote detonation.

 

To make Halo's sandbox great again, I'd say the primary needs to have a TTK slightly below 1s with aim assist on the levels of CE and H3's primary weapons. All other weapons (besides rockets) need to be scaled around that in terms of power/skill-to-use ratio. Devs should take a good at how CE handled this and replicate that in Halo Infinite. I fail to see why they need to reinvent the wheel with each game when this has been done correctly so many years ago.


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#754   Gold

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 08:19 AM

I like how we’ve come up with over 700 posts with no information at all.

Can’t wait for some gameplay, so I can read everyone tear the thing apart frame by frame.
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#755   Apoll0

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 09:03 AM

(Repped you to offset that neg troll that is somehow still not banned)

 

In the context of Halo 4,5 and Reach to an extent I absolutely agree. Power weapons have become such a joke in recent years that it's hard to even defend the concept anymore. This reached new heights with the first two years of H5, as even low-tier weapons like SMGs, Storm Rifles and all rifles offered insane amounts of upgrades for literally running over them and holding X.

 

And the worst part is that Halo players are now used to this and expect weapon on map to shit on the starting weapon, especially with nonsense like Warzone REQ weapons that take these weapons to ridiculous levels of power.

And 343 is actively destroying the legacy of weapons that did this correctly by making the "Halo One Pistol" and the Reach Grenade Launcher in H5 extremely easy to use and free killing sprees. How am I supposed to explain to a H5 kid that CE's pistol wasn't overpowered and it probably had the best balanced sandbox of the series when 343 remakes the weapon and turns it into a parody of itself? Same with the Reach GL, what used to be a skillful weapon and probably the last time a power weapon required at least a bit of skill to use: 343 remakes it and turns it into a Rocket Launcher with remote detonation.

 

To make Halo's sandbox great again, I'd say the primary needs to have a TTK slightly below 1s with aim assist on the levels of CE and H3's primary weapons. All other weapons (besides rockets) need to be scaled around that in terms of power/skill-to-use ratio. Devs should take a good at how CE handled this and replicate that in Halo Infinite. I fail to see why they need to reinvent the wheel with each game when this has been done correctly so many years ago.

 

The only thing i disagree with here is the minimum TTK being less than 1 second.  I really think that a 1-1.2 second TTK in 4v4 halo is the sweet spot. I think the 1.2 second kill time in Halo 5 is good its just too close to the average kill time. I wish the magnum had a 1 - 1.2 second kill time but was a 4 shot instead of 5 shot and retained the 7 shot max kill. But otherwise yeah, there is this power/ease of use curve that Halo 5 got incredibly wrong.  I remember Halo 4 was worse in general, but i honestly don't remember specifics of that game because i hardly played it.


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#756   xxcloud7xx

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 11:50 AM

The only thing i disagree with here is the minimum TTK being less than 1 second.  I really think that a 1-1.2 second TTK in 4v4 halo is the sweet spot. I think the 1.2 second kill time in Halo 5 is good its just too close to the average kill time. I wish the magnum had a 1 - 1.2 second kill time but was a 4 shot instead of 5 shot and retained the 7 shot max kill. But otherwise yeah, there is this power/ease of use curve that Halo 5 got incredibly wrong.  I remember Halo 4 was worse in general, but i honestly don't remember specifics of that game because i hardly played it.

Halo's utility weapon having a 0.6 second minimum TTK > Halo's utility weapon having a 1.2 second minimum TTK.

 
Playing Halo 1 competitively in a 2v2 format > playing Halo 2, Halo 3, Halo Reach, Halo 4, and Halo 5 competitively in a 4v4 format.

 

That being said Halo 1 pistol's 0.6 second minimum TTK isn't really what is holding back 4v4 in Halo 1. Like @Hard Way said in a post that he made a while back, what's really holding back 4v4 in Halo 1 is map/gametype limitations. Limitations such as: 

 

Cant play to 100 kills in default H1

No UI when your flag is out
Autopickup
No indication if enemy is holding ball
1 minute hills, random hills, no “contested hill” option where neither team can get time if both teams are in, lack of every man counts hill scoring, lack of hud indicator when enemy has hill
 
Derelict’s weapon set for CTF (2 rocks 2 snipe 2 camo)
Lack of viable symmetricals (alleviated by Zero Hour and Doubletake)
Wizard’s spawns
Hang Em and Chill Out’s hill locations and dimensions
THE BALL TAKING 30 SECONDS TO RESET IF IT GOES OFF
Derelict’s lack of orientation aid making it hard for newer players to have fun on one of the most versatile 4v4 maps in the game
 
Despite 4v4 in Halo 1 not being the ideal format for competitive play, 4v4 in Halo 1 can still be pretty fun to play when using the right maps and game types.

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#757   Apoll0

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 01:36 PM

 

Halo's utility weapon having a 0.6 second minimum TTK > Halo's utility weapon having a 1.2 second minimum TTK.

 
Playing Halo 1 competitively in a 2v2 format > playing Halo 2, Halo 3, Halo Reach, Halo 4, and Halo 5 competitively in a 4v4 format.

 

That being said Halo 1 pistol's 0.6 second minimum TTK isn't really what is holding back 4v4 in Halo 1. Like @Hard Way said in a post he made a while back, what's really holding back 4v4 in Halo 1 is map/gametype limitations. Limitations such as: 
 
Despite 4v4 in Halo 1 not being the ideal format for competitive play, 4v4 in Halo 1 can still be pretty fun to play with the right maps and game types.

 

 

Yeah i have read and watched all of that in the past.  4v4 isn't going away as the primary competitive team size for halo going forward, so arguing that 2v2 > 4v4 is really not relevant. I don't even agree or disagree with the 2s vs 4s argument. Since we know that 4s is the design of halo's future (and most of its past), its not even an argument worth having to me.  The game needs to be balanced first and foremost for 4v4 gameplay and 4v4 spawn system.  A lot of the arguments about H1 TTK > every other halo seem to ignore these 2 facts.

 

Given the context that 4v4 is the "bread and butter" gamemode since 2004 and will be for the foreseeable future, a .6 ttk is too fast.  When team size goes up, teamshot goes up as a byproduct. There is no way around that.  On the other side, i don't want to go back to the 1.4-1.7 second ttk's that plagued Halo until Halo 5 really. Those are gross over-compensations for the switch to 4v4 and change in spawn system imo.  Getting the perfect ttk back down a bit is one of the better things H5 did with the magnum.  Unfortunately it also made all the weapons too easy so even when you win a battle handily, you are still almost dead.  Lowering the TTK without having a decent delta really doesn't do the game any favors.

 

Going forward, Halo needs to go a little further.  I am not opposed to getting the TTK down a bit more to 1 second or so, though i still think the 1.2 second time is good if they stuck with that but anywhere in the 1 - 1.2 second range I think would be fine.  The much bigger issue as i see it is that there is almost no delta between a perfect TTK and max TTK. If the perfect ttk is 1.2, the max can't be 1.7 like it is now.  It needs to be more like 2 to 2.2 (i think max being about double perfect is a good starting point).  That's why i would love to be able to try Halo 5 with a magnum that still kills in 1.2 seconds, but is a 4 shot instead of a 5 shot, and still 7 shots to kill without a headshot. That gets you a 1.2 second perfect TTK and 2.1 second max. Firing cadence is a little slower, so making players miss helps more and missing hurts more. It would also give the magnum 3 perfect kills per mag.

 

This need to extend the TTK a bit compared to H1 also comes from the relative differences in spawn systems.  Yeah, gametypes are an issue in CE 4v4 but i would argue that the spawn system is far worse for the 4v4 experience especially for people that aren't intimately familiar with how CE spawns work.  Since spawns are predicated on where your living teammate is, in 2v2 its kind of perfect competitively since you can control where your dead teammate will spawn up or if they will get a random. You know exactly who is in control.  The more players you add, the more the possibilities for this really snowball out of control though. By the time you get to 4v4 spawning becomes a hot mess.  Since the rest of the Halo titles spawns work in the opposite way, you can't force unpredictable spawns when you are on the defensive and regain control.  Its up to the enemy to decide where you will spawn, you need to have a little more time to either 1) turn a gunfight around or 2) scoot out of your spawn area and reposition.  A slightly slower TTK accomplishes that.

 

  The thing that makes these calculations really imperfect is the "Average" TTK argument.  Because an average includes misses.  How do you decide how many misses is a good thing? and how do you calculate the average miss rate of active gunfights at each skill tier?  Really you need an API that can let you pull from player data only instances when 2 players start damaging each other via gunfire at the same time, take no other outside damage, and the fight ends with one player dying.  Average accuracy isn't really a good indicator since pre and post-firing can really skew the results.  I dont think there are any games that have let us pull that kind of data.  If you increase average TTK by making a weapon really hard to use, you risk raising the skill floor so much that noobs hate it and think its "totally OP" when they play people better than them, even if in reality its not.  You make up the difference with damage output.  Make the TTK a little slower and new players can feel like they had a fighting chance even if they got rocked just as hard.

 

TL;DR - 4v4 balanced Halo needs slightly longer TTKs than CE because of the increased number of players, different spawn system and to keep the skill floor low enough for new players BUT by and large the games after CE really overcompensated making the TTK too long and destroying the delta between perfect and max ttk.


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#758   xxcloud7xx

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 03:06 PM

TL;DR - 4v4 balanced Halo needs slightly longer TTKs than CE because of the increased number of players, different spawn system and to keep the skill floor low enough for new players BUT by and large the games after CE really overcompensated making the TTK too long and destroying the delta between perfect and max ttk.

I think that a utility weapon that has a similar minimum TTK to Halo 1's pistol can work well in a 4v4 format in Halo. I don't think that a Halo game with a utility weapon that has a similar minimum TTK to Halo 1's pistol increases the skill floor, I just think that it only increases the skill ceiling and skill gap. I think that if Halo 1 had a spawn system that was optimized for a 4v4 format and the game didn't have map and gametype limitations that it would have one of the best 4v4 experiences in the entire Halo series.

While a 4v4 format allows for team-shooting to be more prevalent than a 2v2 format does it can be alleviated through map design. Making maps more room-based similar to room-based maps such as Chill Out and Exhibit but scaling the maps appropriately for a 4v4 format would really help alleviate team-shooting in 4v4 Halo.
https://youtu.be/CxJKxWPgfjc?t=6m44s

While 4v4 being the main competitive format for Halo is most likely here to stay going forward, I think that there's still room for other formats such as 2v2 and FFA. While I wish that the $10,000 2v2 tournament side tournament was for Halo 1 NHE instead of Halo 3 MCC, it still gives me hope that 343 might actually focus on other formats besides 4v4 for competitive play in the future. I'm hoping that they eventually also have a 2v2 tournament for Halo 1 NHE and have a 4v4 tournament for Halo 2/Halo 3 in the near future.
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#759   Apoll0

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 10:10 PM

I think that a utility weapon that has a similar minimum TTK to Halo 1's pistol can work well in a 4v4 format in Halo. I don't think that a Halo game with a utility weapon that has a similar minimum TTK to Halo 1's pistol increases the skill floor, I just think that it only increases the skill ceiling and skill gap. I think that if Halo 1 had a spawn system that was optimized for a 4v4 format and the game didn't have map and gametype limitations that it would have one of the best 4v4 experiences in the entire Halo series.

While a 4v4 format allows for team-shooting to be more prevalent than a 2v2 format does it can be alleviated through map design. Making maps more room-based similar to room-based maps such as Chill Out and Exhibit but scaling the maps appropriately for a 4v4 format would really help alleviate team-shooting in 4v4 Halo.
https://youtu.be/CxJKxWPgfjc?t=6m44s

While 4v4 being the main competitive format for Halo is most likely here to stay going forward, I think that there's still room for other formats such as 2v2 and FFA. While I wish that the $10,000 2v2 tournament side tournament was for Halo 1 NHE instead of Halo 3 MCC, it still gives me hope that 343 might actually focus on other formats besides 4v4 for competitive play in the future. I'm hoping that they eventually also have a 2v2 tournament for Halo 1 NHE and have a 4v4 tournament for Halo 2/Halo 3 in the near future.

 

I see your arguments, but the specific room based and more corridor styled map design to counter the fast TTK isn't what i would want to game to be stuck with for larger team sizes just to fit in a utility weapon with a really fast TTK.   One of the great things about halo is its scaleability and diversity of playspaces. And while I don't believe in the necessity for universal settings at all, i think having different weapon balance would be a mistake and different starting loadouts she be avoided if possible.  Those aren't things i would encourage changing just to be able to play on larger, more open maps.  Hopefully with infinite we can get some really large scale playspaces like 16 v 16 or 32 v 32.  Even with a proper projectile system (which we absolutely need to get back to), a CE style magnum at that scale would turn any open area into a desert of death.  I think the much more import aspect of gunplay that must be captured is the delta between perfect and max (and therefore average, provided aim assist and magnetism isn't on EZ mode) TTK's.  Keep the gunfights long enough that they feel like worthwhile engagements and as the Doc once said, "tell a story" without letting them be so long that escapability becomes it's own problem.  Get the TTK delta's wide enough that standout players can really separate themselves but not so wide that the guns start to become unwieldy and hard to even learn the basics of.  I think the 1-1.2 second TTK is the best range to accomplish those requirements but really, as long as those conditions are met, what the actual number-on-a-spreadsheet-perfect-TTK is really won't matter.

 

I'm totally with  you on the throwback elements.  I think continuing to have "side pots" for other tournaments whether its more FFA, 2v2, 4v4 H1, 2, 3 or even reach v7 would be great.  I think this Halo 3 2v2 10k at dreamhack is a litmus test of sorts.  Will the classic halo champions put their money where their mouth is? I hope for Halo's sake they do.


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#760   xxcloud7xx

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 12:22 AM

I see your arguments, but the specific room based and more corridor styled map design to counter the fast TTK isn't what i would want to game to be stuck with for larger team sizes just to fit in a utility weapon with a really fast TTK. One of the great things about halo is its scaleability and diversity of playspaces. And while I don't believe in the necessity for universal settings at all, i think having different weapon balance would be a mistake and different starting loadouts she be avoided if possible. Those aren't things i would encourage changing just to be able to play on larger, more open maps. Hopefully with infinite we can get some really large scale playspaces like 16 v 16 or 32 v 32. Even with a proper projectile system (which we absolutely need to get back to), a CE style magnum at that scale would turn any open area into a desert of death. I think the much more import aspect of gunplay that must be captured is the delta between perfect and max (and therefore average, provided aim assist and magnetism isn't on EZ mode) TTK's. Keep the gunfights long enough that they feel like worthwhile engagements and as the Doc once said, "tell a story" without letting them be so long that escapability becomes it's own problem. Get the TTK delta's wide enough that standout players can really separate themselves but not so wide that the guns start to become unwieldy and hard to even learn the basics of. I think the 1-1.2 second TTK is the best range to accomplish those requirements but really, as long as those conditions are met, what the actual number-on-a-spreadsheet-perfect-TTK is really won't matter.

I'm totally with you on the throwback elements. I think continuing to have "side pots" for other tournaments whether its more FFA, 2v2, 4v4 H1, 2, 3 or even reach v7 would be great. I think this Halo 3 2v2 10k at dreamhack is a litmus test of sorts. Will the classic halo champions put their money where their mouth is? I hope for Halo's sake they do.

If you really want to see what a utility weapon with a fast minimum TTK but a long average TTK would look like in a 4v4 format in Halo then I highly recommend watching the two 4v4 Halo 1 videos that I linked earlier.


Despite Halo 1's pistol having a fast minimum TTK, team-shooting isn't really an issue when playing Halo 1 in a 4v4 format. The issues with 4v4 in Halo 1 is the game not having a spawn system that is specifically tailored for 4v4 and the map/game type limitaions. If team-shooting isn't an issue in 4v4 Halo 1 then it is possible for a different Halo game to have a utility weapon that has a fast minimum TTK and long average TTK and still not have an issue with team-shooting in 4v4 and other higher player formats.

While room-based maps in Halo 1 such as Chill Out and Exhibit help alleviate team-shooting, Halo 1's pistol is still balanced when playing on open-air maps with long lines of sight such as Hang 'Em High and Imminent. Halo 1's pistol is also balanced on BTB maps such as Blood Gulch and Sidewinder. The main reason why Halo 1's pistol is balanced on maps with long lines of sight is due to Halo 1's pistol projectile velocity being 10 world units per tick (3000 feet per second or 914.4 meters per second). Halo 1's pistol is also balanced at long range due to its maximum range being 40 world units (400 feet or 121.92 meters). Halo 1's pistol's effectiveness at long range is hindered due to Halo 1's 0.2 degrees pistol spread.


Even with the removal of Halo 1's 0.2 degrees pistol spread in the new version of Halo 1 NHE, Halo 1's pistol is sill balanced at long range distances due to Halo 1's pistol slow projectile velocity and due to it having a maximum range of 40 world units (400 feet or 121.92 meters). Here is some game play from the new version of Halo 1 NHE(NSE).

 


The key to balancing a utility weapon that has a fast minimum TTK on open-air 4v4 maps and BTB maps that have long lines of sight is to make sure that the utility weapon has a slow projectile velocity and to make sure that it has a limited maximum range just like Halo 1's pistol.


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#761   LI Mr X IL

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 10:59 AM

Nerd rant incoming: I really hate when people say the pistol shouldn’t be so powerful because it’s “just a pistol.” The magnum in CE shoots a .50cal round so it’s basically a desert eagle. The desert eagle in real life has a muzzle velocity of 1,500fps. If the CE magnum has a muzzle velocity of 3,000fps that basically makes it a desert eagle on steroids. 3,000fps is the muzzle velocity of most rifles not of handguns. At that speed the round that the CE magnum fires would have just under 8,000J of kinetic energy. That’s 4x the kinetic energy of a desert eagle round at just under 2,000J. Just a pistol my ass.
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#762   Apoll0

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 11:18 AM

If you really want to see what a utility weapon with a fast minimum TTK but a long average TTK would look like in a 4v4 format in Halo then I highly recommend watching the two 4v4 Halo 1 videos that I linked earlier.

Despite Halo 1's pistol having a fast minimum TTK, team-shooting isn't really an issue when playing Halo 1 in a 4v4 format. The issues with 4v4 in Halo 1 is the game not having a spawn system that is specifically tailored for 4v4 and the map/game type limitaions. If team-shooting isn't an issue in 4v4 Halo 1 then it is possible for a different Halo game to have a utility weapon that has a fast minimum TTK and long average TTK and still not have an issue with team-shooting in 4v4 and other higher player formats.

While room-based maps in Halo 1 such as Chill Out and Exhibit help alleviate team-shooting, Halo 1's pistol is still balanced when playing on open-air maps with long lines of sight such as Hang 'Em High and Imminent. Halo 1's pistol is also balanced on BTB maps such as Blood Gulch and Sidewinder. The main reason why Halo 1's pistol is balanced on maps with long lines of sight is due to Halo 1's pistol projectile velocity being 10 world units per tick (3000 feet per second or 914.4 meters per second). Halo 1's pistol is also balanced at long range due to its maximum range being 40 world units (400 feet or 121.92 meters). Halo 1's pistol's effectiveness at long range is hindered due to Halo 1's 0.2 degrees pistol spread. Even with the removal of Halo 1's 0.2 degrees pistol spread in the new version of Halo 1 NHE, Halo 1's pistol is sill balanced at long range distances due to Halo 1's pistol slow projectile velocity and due to it having a maximum range of 40 world units (400 feet or 121.92 meters). Here is some game play from the new version of Halo 1 NHE(NSE). The key to balancing a utility weapon that has a fast minimum TTK on open-air 4v4 maps and BTB maps that have long lines of sight is to make sure that the utility weapon has a slow projectile velocity and to make sure that it has a limited maximum range just like Halo 1's pistol.

 

 
I actually agree with pretty much all of this except for the actual TTK number.  My arguments are about to get circular which i don't want to deal with so let me steer this a little different direction.
 
Are you married to the .6 second kill time?  If so, why?  I agree that Halo needs a strong primary and that the skill gap of said primary should be fairly wide.  For most of Halo's history, the kill time has really been 1.4s or more, and 1.4 seconds is the low end for the utility weapon post-CE.  During the height of Halo's greatness popularity the H3 BR had a kill time over 1.5s iirc.  Getting it down to the 1-1.2 range is still a fast kill time for a primary as far as halo is concerned.
 

Nerd rant incoming: I really hate when people say the pistol shouldn’t be so powerful because it’s “just a pistol.” The magnum in CE shoots a .50cal round so it’s basically a desert eagle. The desert eagle in real life has a muzzle velocity of 1,500fps. If the CE magnum has a muzzle velocity of 3,000fps that basically makes it a desert eagle on steroids. 3,000fps is the muzzle velocity of most rifles not of handguns. At that speed the round that the CE magnum fires would have just under 8,000J of kinetic energy. That’s 4x the kinetic energy of a desert eagle round at just under 2,000J. Just a pistol my ass.

 

HAHA i have always thought the same thing.  Its the Lazy Cricket of human pistols that only Spartans can wield because it would break a mere-mortals hand.  Thats how i have always approached it.

 

On the other hand....  If casuals can't get past the skin of the gun fuck it, i don't really care.  I want the gun to feel powerful and shoot well.  If they skin it like a DMR instead to throw the casuals a bone, so be it.


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#763   LI Mr X IL

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 11:52 AM

HAHA i have always thought the same thing. Its the Lazy Cricket of human pistols that only Spartans can wield because it would break a mere-mortals hand. Thats how i have always approached it.

On the other hand.... If casuals can't get past the skin of the gun fuck it, i don't really care. I want the gun to feel powerful and shoot well. If they skin it like a DMR instead to throw the casuals a bone, so be it.


Yeah as long as the utility functions properly I’m not too concerned with how it looks. If the utility being a rifle will be healthier for the games population as a whole then I’m all for it. I’ve just always hated that argument. You’re playing a sci-fi shooter where some of the technology is so advanced it might as well be magic but you’re still going to insist that since a weapon is a handgun that it can’t be powerful? That’s just nonsense.
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#764   Basu

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 12:29 PM

You’re playing a sci-fi shooter where some of the technology is so advanced it might as well be magic but you’re still going to insist that since a weapon is a handgun that it can’t be powerful? That’s just nonsense.

 

IMMERSION


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#765   Ramirez77

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 12:43 PM

The M6D doesn't just use .50 cal rounds.  It uses armor penetrating .50cal rounds with a high explosive tip that is triggered on impact.  There is plenty of in-lore justification for it's power.  Aside from that I find it more immersive anyways, not less.  What better way to show off supersoldier capabilities than have someone accurately land ranged shots with just a pistol?  It feels badass and gives the game a cowboy duels in space vibe.

 

0.6s falls between two extremes of being just slow enough to allow reaction while still fast enough to speed fights along, make reversals possible, and prevent people from just leisurely strolling away from combat.  With instant killtimes, you're dead before you can turn around.  With 1.2s+ killtimes there's a massive difference between how long it takes you to kill one of them vs how they can (almost) instantly shoot you to death.  With 0.6s killtimes it's nowhere as significant.


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#766   Mr Grim

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 02:31 PM

I'm willing to holster my gun autism for video games most of the time.
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#767   Knighty Knight

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 02:41 PM

Nerd rant incoming: I really hate when people say the pistol shouldn’t be so powerful because it’s “just a pistol.” The magnum in CE shoots a .50cal round so it’s basically a desert eagle. The desert eagle in real life has a muzzle velocity of 1,500fps. If the CE magnum has a muzzle velocity of 3,000fps that basically makes it a desert eagle on steroids. 3,000fps is the muzzle velocity of most rifles not of handguns. At that speed the round that the CE magnum fires would have just under 8,000J of kinetic energy. That’s 4x the kinetic energy of a desert eagle round at just under 2,000J. Just a pistol my ass.

 

ily


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#768   Apoll0

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 04:09 PM

Ok, how about something like this to shut up the folks that can't get past the skin.

 

Campaign moment:

 

You are MC without his armor. scarred, bare hands showing. Armor is in for maintenance.

Attack incoming. Grab magnum with bare hand to fight off attackers.  Each shot fired has massive kick and thunderous, bass laden report. Hell, maybe it even damages health a little bit.  Cannot be fired at full speed.  You pick up an AR on your way, and can fire that almost-normally.

Get to your armor.  Put it on and now the magnum  can actually be fired at full speed under control.


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#769   Hard Way

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 06:10 PM

ily

Is this an abbreviation for something?

Edit: figured it out. Clearly I’m not told this often enough 😂
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#770   ChieftaiNZ

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 04:13 AM

I like how we’ve come up with over 700 posts with no information at all.

Can’t wait for some gameplay, so I can read everyone tear the thing apart frame by frame.

 

1 Frame of a spartan sprinting and I'm out. 


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#771   pddschild

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 01:42 PM

Some guy running the Microsoft booth at NOLA said word on the street next Halo is stripped down with just sprint and clamor... pretty sure he had no idea what he was talking about but interesting to hear what Microsoft store employees had to say. 


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#772   Apoll0

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 02:54 PM

Some guy running the Microsoft booth at NOLA said word on the street next Halo is stripped down with just sprint and clamor... pretty sure he had no idea what he was talking about but interesting to hear what Microsoft store employees had to say. 

 

Yeah im sure he was full of shit. No rando MS store employee is going to know that kind of stuff lol.

 

Lets suppose its true though... if you were to only keep 2, why would you keep sprint and clamber?  If sprint is still in Halo Infinite, its really just proof that they don't get it and never will.


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#773   calberto

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 04:16 PM

Some guy running the Microsoft booth at NOLA said word on the street next Halo is stripped down with just sprint and clamor... pretty sure he had no idea what he was talking about but interesting to hear what Microsoft store employees had to say. 

yeah, keeping sprint but getting rid of thrust sounds way too stupid...while I'm still waiting for a Halo with no gimmicks, I'm under the impression that, even among those that are anti sprint, thrust is the thing people would have the least problem with, and quite frankly, if I had to pick one SA that had to stay, I'd go with thrust as well.

I'm actually rather curious when 343 is going to drop the bomb whether or not they will still use sprint and all that other bullshit...

I think we're at a point where all that hype could turn into a shit storm rather fast if 343 fucks up their next move...


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#774   Cavik

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 06:44 PM

1 Frame of a spartan sprinting and I'm out. 

What if he's sprinting and shooting at the same time?


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#775   Hard Way

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 10:42 PM

I would take sprint over thrust if I had to choose. I hate thrust so God damn much. Legendary Slayer in H4 is more palatable to me than default H5, and it's because of thrust. But I didn't mind stabilize or slide. Stabilize has very little downside, and I enjoyed using it. Slide only got stupid because of thrust. By itself it's pretty benign. But obviously it needs to be bound to sprint, and I don't want sprint, so I could live without slide.

 

If they're going to have movement tech, just give us a damn wall kick and call it a day.


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