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Guest Message by DevFuse

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My proposal for the Halo: CE 4v4 playlist.


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#1   Hard Way

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 05:15 PM

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I reached out to the folks at 343 that are working on the Halo 1 4v4 playlist and offered to help with it. I think it's fair to say I've lanned more H1 4v4 than most people in the country in the last 5 years, and I feel like I would be an asset to them while they're making this list.  Here's what I wrote up. I wanted to get yall's thoughts on this.

Halo: CE 4v4 Playlist Suggestions

 

The last time Halo 1 had a 4v4 playlist, it was a blast to play and I thoroughly enjoyed it, but it did fall short of its potential. There were quite a few things I noticed that likely stemmed from lack of experience with the game, and I’d like try to head those off this time around if I can.

 

General Do’s:

 

-No radar: Halo 1’s radar radius is enormous, and you can’t crouch walk to stay off of it. It truly does ruin team games. It’s vital that it stays off.

 

-Adequate score limits: Last time, many of the best gametypes had score limits that were too low, and the games were over just when they felt like they were getting going. CTF should be played to 5 on Wizard, Derelict, and Longest. King of the Hill and Oddball should always be played to 5 minutes. Team Slayer should be played to 100 (this option currently doesn’t exist in the game, but maybe it could be added in). If the concern is that games would take too long, we should use a 15 minute time limit.

 

-Custom Starting Equipment set to “No” (unless otherwise noted): This will ensure we get proper AR/Pistol starts. Some game types play better with the “Custom” set though, like Boarding Action Snipers and Wizard CTF with the Pistols Only weapon set. I’ll be sure to annotate if the starting weapon should be set to Custom, but as a rule it should usually be Generic, or “No” as it’s listed in MCC.

 

-Proper Respawn Times: 5 seconds for Slayer, 10 seconds for Objective. 5 seconds suicide penalty, 10 second betrayal penalty.

 

-Proper Flag settings for big maps. People are going to want Blood Gulch, Sidewinder, and Timberland CTF in this playlist, but they tend to forget how hard it is to score in those gametypes. It’s crucial that we use the “Force Flag Reset” option so that the flag cannot be touch returned. This makes flag captures actually realistic when playing against evenly matched opponents. “Flag At Home To Score” absolutely must be set to “No”. Flag standoffs on big maps are awful and last forever, and without touch return they would be incredibly hard to resolve. For Sidewinder, I would also recommend using the Assault variant where you bring the flag to their base. Every spawn point on Sidewinder directly blocks the flag, making players need to pull off several rounds of slaying to push in for the flag and then get back out. It’s exacerbated by the frag spawns near the flag, allowing spawners to spam grenades. This work can be cut in half if attackers are only tasked with going in, and not coming back out too. Play to 3 caps, 15 minutes.

 

-Vehicle Respawn: This is a wonderful quality of life addition in the PC version that will return idle vehicles to their starting spawn. Because the vehicles are indestructible, they often lie around abandoned for large chunks of time. Players often lose track of them, which hurts game flow. Sometimes players even horde the vehicles in out of the way places and force everyone to play on foot. Also, this option alleviates blocking the enemy portal on Blood Gulch for long stretches of time. Set it to something that doesn’t intrude too much on gameplay, but still punishes poor use of your vehicles. I think 90 seconds is about right.

 

-Vehicle Count: Unless otherwise noted, each team should get 1 standard warthog, 1 ghost, and 1 scorpion. That’s the way most people lan’d the bigger maps on Xbox.

 

General Don’ts:

 

-Oddball on maps with an abyss: In Halo 1, if the ball goes off the edge, it takes 30 seconds to respawn. This gets abused by people trying to troll the game and grief everyone by stalling out the game and intentionally playing the ball over and over. So maps like Damnation are a no-go for Oddball. Standard oddball needs to be played on fully enclosed maps like Chill Out, Derelict, Prisoner, and Wizard. On maps with an abyss, the Reverse Tag variant is an excellent substitute.

 

-Oddball on maps with poor meta: Hang Em High, Battle Creek and Rat Race play Oddball and Reverse Tag poorly, because they have places to put your objective player that are too difficult to contest, and it makes for an uninteresting meta that plays the same way every time. On Hang Em, that place is deep in the tunnels, forcing players into a single tiny hallway that would otherwise see very little action. On Rat Race, that place is in the top tunnels, blocking the portal. It forces the other team to push from top room through a single choke point. On Battle Creek, it’s behind the bases. Every game becomes a portal hopping game, and in order to break it, the assaulting team needs to leave a guy at the other base to cut off the port. They just aren’t fun and they shouldn’t be in the playlist.

 

-Death Bonus and Kill Penalty: For some reason, these options are on by default when making a new gametype. They make people on death streaks run faster and kill streaks run slower. Please ensure that they are turned off.

 

-Banshees: They’re horribly balanced in Halo 1, and not at all fun to play against. I promise they would ruin the game.

 

With that out of the way, I’ll post a list of gametypes that I feel would make an excellent playlist, with their weighting.

 

High Weighting. Best, or most desired gametypes:

 

Team Slayer:  100 kills to win
Chill Out
Hang Em High
Battle Creek 
Damnation

 

CTF:  Flag at Home to Score, Touch Return unless noted otherwise
Battle Creek CTF (3 caps)
Longest CTF (5 caps)
Blood Gulch CTF (3 caps, no flag at home to score, flag must reset)

 

King of the Hill:  5 minutes to win, Moving Hill on
Battle Creek
Rat Race
Derelict
Damnation

 

Oddball/Reverse Tag: 5 minutes to win, ball carrier is Slower
Chill Out
Damnation (Reverse Tag rules)
Derelict

 

Medium Weighting (decent gametypes, or good gametypes on unpopular maps)

 

Team Slayer:
Prisoner TS (100 kills)
Rat Race TS (100 kills)
Derelict TS (100 kills)

 

CTF:
Wizard (5 caps) *”Pistols Only” weapon set, Custom Starting Equipment set to “Yes”*
Derelict (5 caps) *”Pistols Only” weapon set, Custom Starting Equipment set to “Yes”*
Timberland (3 caps, no flag at home to score, flag must reset)
Sidewinder (3 caps, Assault rules, flag must reset)

 

King of the Hill:
Hang Em High
Chill Out
Wizard

 

Oddball:
Wizard
Prisoner

 

Low Weighting (odd, but good gametypes that most people haven’t played much, that add variety)

 

Snipers: “Sniping” Weapon Set, “Custom Starting Equipment” set to “Yes”
Hang Em High (100 kills)
Boarding Action (50 kills because this gametype usually plays pretty slow)

 

CTF on Asymmetrical maps: 3 caps to win, touch return, flag at home to score
Damnation
Rat Race
Hang Em High

 

1 Flag CTF:  3 caps, 2min offense, 20min limit for fairness
Battle Creek (touch return)
Damnation (touch return)
Rat Race (touch return)
Hang Em High (touch return)
Blood Gulch (flag must reset, Assault rules)
Timberland (flag must reset, Assault rules)
Sidewinder (flag must reset, Assault rules)

 

Race: Flag Rally Rules, 25 “Laps” to win (a lap is just one checkpoint in rally rules), Accumulate Scoring
Hang Em High

Blood Gulch (1 Warthog and 1 Scorpion per team)​


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#2   Riddler

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 05:22 PM

You can't leave out TS priz. 

 

 

also the good news is there was no radar in the 3v3/4v4 playlist before, there is none in the current TS playlist, so hopefully we will continue to have no radar. it's a shame there is still radar in the other halos


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#3   Hard Way

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 05:46 PM

You can't leave out TS priz. 

 

 

also the good news is there was no radar in the 3v3/4v4 playlist before, there is none in the current TS playlist, so hopefully we will continue to have no radar. it's a shame there is still radar in the other halos

 

It's in the medium weighting. I didn't feel it was as good as the others for 4's.


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#4   Silos

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 06:05 PM

I'm always nervous when it comes to one flag CTF and asym CTF. If you say they're solid I'd be willing to try it in the playlist. Everything in your top two tiers of gametypes I'd love to see though, even if I hate vehicles I doubt many people would be happy with no Blood Gulch so I'm willing to compromise.
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#5   Hard Way

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 08:49 PM

I'm always nervous when it comes to one flag CTF and asym CTF. If you say they're solid I'd be willing to try it in the playlist. Everything in your top two tiers of gametypes I'd love to see though, even if I hate vehicles I doubt many people would be happy with no Blood Gulch so I'm willing to compromise.


They’re fun enough that they’re worth playing from time to time if you don’t take them too seriously. They’re weighted low so that when they come up they seem novel and less like they’re clogging up a voting slot.
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#6   Cujjer

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 09:16 PM

I would rather play Chiron shotties than Priz anything for 4v4. Also, ratrace ts should be in the high weighting catagory.
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#7   Hard Way

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 09:37 PM

I would rather play Chiron shotties than Priz anything for 4v4. Also, ratrace ts should be in the high weighting catagory.

 

Priz 4v4 is an absolute shit show, but people seem to like it. I gotta admit, I do have fun on it too. I knew it wasn't good enough to be weighted high, but I think leaving it out would irritate people.

 

And I agree that Rat Race TS is a good enough gametype to have that weighting, but it's held down by its popularity. People just don't like that map for some reason (even though it's way better for 4's than 2's). I weighted KotH high because I think it's better than Slayer, and because there wasn't already a full slate of KotH maps without it.


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#8   Ethereal Nights

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 10:08 PM

I'm always nervous when it comes to one flag CTF and asym CTF. If you say they're solid I'd be willing to try it in the playlist. Everything in your top two tiers of gametypes I'd love to see though, even if I hate vehicles I doubt many people would be happy with no Blood Gulch so I'm willing to compromise.

 

CTF on Dammy is a religious experience.


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#9   Basu

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 11:11 AM

Please no Blood Gulch, Sidewinder and Timberland in 4v4. I know people are nostalgic for these maps but let's just face it, they are way too large for 4v4 and it's boring as shit to play on them in that setting. Games last forever, then people quit and it takes even longer.


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#10   -DeucEy-

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 12:17 PM

I had no idea they were bringing this back. Good stuff Hard Way! I was so upset when they removed the CE 4v4 playlist. I get down on 2v2s in CE as much as any CE kid, but 4v4s are the jam when you got your friends on.


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#11   Basu

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 01:46 PM

I had no idea they were bringing this back. Good stuff Hard Way! I was so upset when they removed the CE 4v4 playlist.

 

Oh man this reminds me of that time. I pretty much stopped playing Xbox for six months after that lmao. Just fucking WHY? 343 and their rotational bullshit, it's the same with their constant removing of classic playlists in H5.


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#12   RC_5213

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 06:16 PM

Priz 4v4 is an absolute shit show, but people seem to like it. I gotta admit, I do have fun on it too. I knew it wasn't good enough to be weighted high, but I think leaving it out would irritate people.

 

And I agree that Rat Race TS is a good enough gametype to have that weighting, but it's held down by its popularity. People just don't like that map for some reason (even though it's way better for 4's than 2's). I weighted KotH high because I think it's better than Slayer, and because there wasn't already a full slate of KotH maps without it.

 

I still don't understand why Rat Race is so disliked.


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#13   Riddler

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 09:21 PM

I still don't understand why Rat Race is so disliked.

no power weapons is a pretty big part of that. There's also not much flanking because it's all tunnels. only 2 ways to attack from. 


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#14   Hard Way

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 04:50 AM

There’s a version of RR on one of the new versions of H1 that has a sniper in top room. I love it.
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#15   Hard Way

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 09:56 AM

Postums (the decision maker for this playlist) said he'd dive into this today. I sent it to him over the weekend and he kinda tabled it until he was back in the office. Hopefully he gets back to me today.


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#16   Cujjer

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 10:33 AM

CTF on Dammy is a religious experience.

I hate damnation for 4v4, it is kind of okay for KOTH but in general it's lack of routes and small tunnels/bridges causes it to be a giant clusterfuck.

 

I still don't understand why Rat Race is so disliked.

When people are playing 2v2 seriously, there is no incentive to move aside from the powerups coming back. As they don't spawn very frequently, games are usually 17-20 minutes long. In 4v4, it is probably the least frustrating slayer map. Spawn killing is less frequent, there is alot of space to move around, you can try to be sneaky without fear of causing your teammates to spawn in a terrible place etc.


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#17   BigShow36

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 11:16 AM

A good, non-ranked 4v4 CE playlist would be awesome. 


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#18   WARGOD

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 01:17 PM

General needs for any form of Halo CE:

 

1. Do not match up players against each other if they are further than 500 miles from the server, or from each other.

2. Do not match up players against each other if they are more than 5 ranks apart.

3. Make the shit play like NHE for everyone in the game.  No excuses.

 

If they can manage this basic level programming, then maybe there is hope.


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#19   Teapot

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:03 PM

I love playing 4's on the new maps but it's a shame that there's no way we will see those on MCC. Love this list though and would be more than happy if this is how they implemented it.


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#20   RC_5213

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:12 PM

no power weapons is a pretty big part of that. There's also not much flanking because it's all tunnels. only 2 ways to attack from. 

 

Interesting, because I feel Rat Race is one of the easiest maps to flank on between the upper tunnel and the teleporters. I can see the no power weapons, though.

 

There’s a version of RR on one of the new versions of H1 that has a sniper in top room. I love it.

 

That definitely sounds like a good improvement to the map.

 

When people are playing 2v2 seriously, there is no incentive to move aside from the powerups coming back. As they don't spawn very frequently, games are usually 17-20 minutes long. In 4v4, it is probably the least frustrating slayer map. Spawn killing is less frequent, there is alot of space to move around, you can try to be sneaky without fear of causing your teammates to spawn in a terrible place etc.

 

Fair enough, I can see that.

 

I do agree that Rat Race plays really well in 4v4, especially with randoms.


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#21   WARGOD

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 03:13 PM

I love playing 4's on the new maps but it's a shame that there's no way we will see those on MCC. Love this list though and would be more than happy if this is how they implemented it.

We won't see maps like those on MCC because the people who are now designing maps for 343 don't have the talent of those who made the new maps on NHE, or the talent of Hardy LeBel.   


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#22   Riddler

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 03:33 PM

Interesting, because I feel Rat Race is one of the easiest maps to flank on between the upper tunnel and the teleporters. I can see the no power weapons, though.


That definitely sounds like a good improvement to the map.


Fair enough, I can see that.

I do agree that Rat Race plays really well in 4v4, especially with randoms.


Its not really flanking if you get shot instantly. Where on the map isnt covered fully by two people? If youre dance floor, you can only get attacked from camo or top tunnel entrance. If youre blue you can only get attacked from dance floor or red. If youre red you can only be attacked from shields or blue/red. If youre shields you can only be attacked from camo/red.

Whereas chilly. Rocket room. You can be attacked from double doors, side door, back door, top pr. Two people cant cover every option just by staring. There exists pink but thats the only place on the map that you can lock down and many dont lile that part.
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#23   WARGOD

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 06:49 PM

Its not really flanking if you get shot instantly. Where on the map isnt covered fully by two people? If youre dance floor, you can only get attacked from camo or top tunnel entrance. If youre blue you can only get attacked from dance floor or red. If youre red you can only be attacked from shields or blue/red. If youre shields you can only be attacked from camo/red.

Whereas chilly. Rocket room. You can be attacked from double doors, side door, back door, top pr. Two people cant cover every option just by staring. There exists pink but thats the only place on the map that you can lock down and many dont lile that part.

 

You could lock down pink back in 2002 maybe with a small little lan crew, but now a nade jump up to pipes makes short work of any camp attempt.    There's 4 ways to get into pink.


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#24   Missingno

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 06:57 PM

Rat Race can easily be the campiest map in 2v2.  Love it for 4v4.  I've played the sniper version of Rat Race and for 2v2 I don't think it adds anything to the gameplay, because if you're up top getting a sniper you can't contest any powerups, especially if they are nading camo back from top tunnel.  Unless you spawn there it puts you too far out of power positions IMO.  Life would find a way though.  I also deep down love that it's a map with no power weapons.  Could be really nice in 4v4 though.

 

 

All of the gametypes up top look good to me except Sidewinder, Blood Gulch, and Timberland.  Huge fan of 4v4, just no personal interest in playing huge maps again, although plenty of people love them.  Shame that none of the "new" maps would be in, because Zero Hour CTF is one of my favorite H1 gametypes PERIOD.  Also a big fan of Downrush oddball.  Imminent slayer.  Exhibit oddball.  Imminent KOTH.  Outbound oddball.  I love it all, everything.


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#25   Hard Way

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 09:33 PM

Rat Race can easily be the campiest map in 2v2.  Love it for 4v4.  I've played the sniper version of Rat Race and for 2v2 I don't think it adds anything to the gameplay, because if you're up top getting a sniper you can't contest any powerups, especially if they are nading camo back from top tunnel.  Unless you spawn there it puts you too far out of power positions IMO.  Life would find a way though.  I also deep down love that it's a map with no power weapons.  Could be really nice in 4v4 though.

 

 

All of the gametypes up top look good to me except Sidewinder, Blood Gulch, and Timberland.  Huge fan of 4v4, just no personal interest in playing huge maps again, although plenty of people love them.  Shame that none of the "new" maps would be in, because Zero Hour CTF is one of my favorite H1 gametypes PERIOD.  Also a big fan of Downrush oddball.  Imminent slayer.  Exhibit oddball.  Imminent KOTH.  Outbound oddball.  I love it all, everything.

 

I'm with you there. The new maps are a godsend for 4's. And Zero Hour CTF is a favorite among our LAN crew in Ohio.

 

To be clear about the big maps, they're not my jam either. I think that's something H1 players should naturally outgrow over time. However, I was trying to cater to what people want/expect outside of the competitive community. I've seen this stuff come up too many times in reddit threads or conversations with casual players in person. I did my best to mitigate the things that make it undesirable/long, short of making it 1 cap to win, which was tempting (time limits, no touch return, no flag at home to score, Assault rules on Sidewinder, vehicle respawns, etc). Also, I'm still under the impression that there will be gametype/map voting, so you may not even have to play them that much if your team doesn't want to. I just thought it would be kind of a middle finger to casual players to not include them.


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