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Quake Champions Discussion


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245 replies to this topic

#226   Hitman

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 04:37 PM

Yeah i had to turn the video off because it was really annoying me.Champions aren't honestly fucking with much though I wish we didn't have them.It's shit like the increased armor decay speed,zoom damage,armor cap(it's too low on some characters),mega/red both having 30 second timers,speed cap,and the duel design that people should be pissed off about.These all reduce the emphasis on control and make quake less of a mental game and more "who has the better aim?".

I think Bethesda is trying to lower the skillfloor but all of these changes are lowering the skill ceiling.

https://www.reddit.c...ealth_rounding/
Stuff like this is just mind-blowing.They tried to simplify the bubble system and made it twice as fucking complex.Veterans are going to have a difficult time understanding this let alone a noob.

 

Bethesda/id cant even dumb a franchise down right! WTF he is he talking about an adventure game health system for to justify implementing it into Quake?? Its Quake its supposed to be a simple pure skill FPS! Nobody who plays Quake even knows what hes talking about imo. Yea im sure thatll get those OW and CS players to switch lol, watching that duel video something just seems off about the game....its like a Quake wannabe like fools gold compared to real gold. ZeRo4 didnt even look like he was having fun playing it!


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#227   Mckeever

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 09:16 AM

I'm really enjoying the game, personally. 


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#228   ripharambe

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 08:54 PM

I'm really enjoying the game, personally.

I'm enjoying it too.I just think there are easy fixes Bethesda needs to make.
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#229   careh

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 08:22 AM

Duel Cup #1 final:

 

 

Quake World Champs

 

QuakeChamp_ChampionshipsMoneyBreakdown.j


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#230   QuietMan

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 08:27 AM

So I guess a million dollar ... Champion ship is going down for Quake Champions.
This has me intrigued. It's all starting today.

 

Online Qualifiers for Duel Competitors
The top 32 Duelers from each region qualify for Regionals, to be played online.

  • Duel Qualifier #1 o EU: June 29, July 2 o NA: June 30, July 2
  • Duel Qualifier #2 o EU: July 6, July 9 o NA: July 7, July 9
  • Duel Qualifier #3 o EU: July 13, July 17 o NA: July 14, July 16
  • Duel Qualifier #4 o EU: July 20, July 23 o NA: July 21, July 23
Online Qualifiers for 4v4 Sacrifice
The top 8 Sacrifice teams from each region qualify for Regionals, to be played online.
  • Sacrifice Qualifier #1 o EU: July 1-2 o NA: July 15-16
  • Sacrifice Qualifier #2 o EU: July 8-9 o NA: July 22-23
Regional Finals, Duel and Sacrifice
The top 12 Duelers and the top 4 Sacrifice teams from each region qualify for the QuakeCon finals.
  • EU Regionals (Leicester, UK): August 5-6
  • NA Regionals (Burbank, CA): August 5-6
QuakeCon Finals (Dallas, Texas)
The top 24 Duelers who qualified online and 8 Duelers who qualified at QuakeCon (BYOC) will make up the top 32 players in the world to compete in the QuakeCon Finals.
The top 8 Sacrifice teams in the world will compete in the QuakeCon Finals.
  • BYOC Duel Qualifying Tournament: August 24
  • Finals: August 24-26

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#231   ripharambe

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 08:49 PM

So I guess a million dollar ... Champion ship is going down for Quake Champions.
This has me intrigued. It's all starting today.


Dropped in to watch the first round and it was fun.I don't think we'll ever be able to convince Bethesda to remove champions from competitive play but I do think that we can get them to flex on other more important issues like there being no yellows,zoom damage (fixed),duel design (partially fixed),speed cap,armor cap (too low on some characters),mega & red having 30s timers,and the speed of armor decay is faster than ql are Al little things i guarantee that ,besides the speed cap,armor cap,and duel design,bethesda is willing to flex on if people voiced their displeasure.The netcode is being addressed and has definitely improved since the update though there are still problems.
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#232   arglactable

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 05:22 PM

I just wish they would do something about the one button dumb fuck abilities, especially in duel. All it does is add a super defensive element to the game and de-emphasize on-map resource management/control. It's awful.

 

This match is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. 

 

About ten minutes of overtime and that ENTIRE TIME, the Nyx player just waits for his get out of jail free card to automatically recharge before engaging and immediately pops it runs away the second he is in any danger of losing the fight. That dumb shit literally adds nothing to duel. No meaningful strategy, no meaningful skill. Just waiting for your OP garbage to recharge so you aren't at a disadvantage.

 

I can handle the rest of the properties of the character "match-ups" (I even think the different movement properties are fairly cool), but this MOBA trash has no place in duel. Leave it in Sacrifice if anything and ideally, if it's staying around, get rid of the automatic cool down and add a single on-map "ultimate recharge" item, so you actually have to CONTROL IT in an ARENA SHOOTER.


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#233   ripharambe

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 03:41 PM

The netcode is dogshit,and yet they still insist on a $1,000,000 tournament despite it's current state because????
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#234   Warlord Wossman

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 10:42 AM

Even with good netcode the game would be shit. Champions don't fit into the game and the 3 lives only makes it a railfest.

 

#playmorereflex


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#235   ripharambe

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 03:27 PM

Even with good netcode the game would be shit. Champions don't fit into the game and the 3 lives only makes it a railfest.

#playmorereflex

The new duel changes are shit but let's be real, they're not the reason QC is a rail fest.You have all the changes to armor system to thank for that.
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#236   Gobias

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 01:00 AM

The new duel changes are shit but let's be real, they're not the reason QC is a rail fest.You have all the changes to armor system to thank for that.

I disagree. Yes, the armor system is flawed and decreases the importance of control, but first to three kills every round means that players will instinctively be more passive. Passive gameplay leads to more railgun usage. And now each rail hit has proportionally more power to change the momentum of a round than in other Quake games because there is less potential to gain meaningful control. In other arena shooters, you can afford to take more risks after eating a rail, but in Champs you are much closer to losing the only thing that matters: not control of the map, but the point for the round. And the best, safest strategy after eating a rail is to back down and try to hit one yourself.

It's a self-reinforcing cycle. Diluted control is the issue, and armor dilution is a factor, but the nature of the duel gametype is where it starts.
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#237   ripharambe

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 11:18 AM

I disagree. Yes, the armor system is flawed and decreases the importance of control, but first to three kills every round means that players will instinctively be more passive. Passive gameplay leads to more railgun usage. And now each rail hit has proportionally more power to change the momentum of a round than in other Quake games because there is less potential to gain meaningful control. In other arena shooters, you can afford to take more risks after eating a rail

(Because you more health and armor,what you're talking about it also referenced by rapha who says in order to make those pushes he needs time and health.I think someone clipped him playing the QC beta and talking about how the armor/health changes are the reason people are more conservative)

, but in Champs you are much closer to losing the only thing that matters: not control of the map, but the point for the round. And the best, safest strategy after eating a rail is to back down and try to hit one yourself.

It's a self-reinforcing cycle. Diluted control is the issue, and armor dilution is a factor, but the nature of the duel gametype is where it starts.

I should've said that health/armor system because that's what hat I meant and I disagree Duel definitely contributes to QC being more aim based but not because it's first to three kill most pro quake games don't even make it to three kills,gone are the days of the barn burners.What's harmful is the 4 minute limit.If not for the armor/health changes control would still be a important factor.It would just be sped up.
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=XdkDjsBiO58
That's what rapha talks about here is he needs time to take over the weapons,health, and armor he needs.

1: Reducing the # of armor and health pickups: red,yellow,green,shard > Red,green,shard and mega,large,medium,small > mega, health bubble. Which unfortunately makes sense because champions can't stack as much but nonetheless it's a reduction in complexity as you now have less items to control/keep track of.It makes in control play less difficult,and out of control play alot more difficult (snowbally gameplay is the word for this I believe).

2: Armor/hp decay is faster than ql meaning what armor you do pick up doesn't last as long. (except on sorlag I believe).

3: How low the armor cap is on some characters.Unfortunately this works in some ways because of how broken some characters abilities are cough cough anarki and nix cough In the short term it's incredibly frustrating to get a nix or anarki down to low health just to have them heal or disappear but in the long term it's balanced.Even clutch can't get to 400 total stack (200h and 150a) because you can only overcharge by 50 in this game.

4: The minor stuff like armor shards being 15s,picking up armor shards from opponents you kill,red armor and mega health being 30s.I believe there might be a couple others but I don't have the time to go into quake live to test,and then cross-check with QC.

Combined these are way more damaging than the new duel system.The whole reason people were able to make pushes was because they had the health and armor to sacrifice now what little they have disappears twice as fast.
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#238   Gobias

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 01:07 AM

@ I don't disagree with any of that; clearly the amount, decay rate, and respawn time for health and armor is flawed and leads to easy pickup cycling by the in-control player. But I think the new duel format itself is also a big contributor and I would lump the four minute time limit in there as one of the fundamental changes to duel. Time is a resource and it's too scarce to allow a meaningful test of control. Three kills also artificially limits how much the in-control player can exploit his control of the map to net points on the board.

I've seen plenty of high-level QL duels where the in-control player has the lead with around three kills for about four minutes, and then the ooc player gains control and goes on a spree. If you watch some of Rapha's matches from Quakecon 2017, even against weaker opponents he sometimes winds up ooc at the start, but his patience and consistency wins out in the end. There is no room and no time for consistency and patience with three kills in four minutes.

That's why I think you could implement a four minute time limit and a three-frag limit into Quake Live and obtain a similar negative effect in terms of increasingly passive, rail-heavy gameplay. The control aspect of the game would be better with QL's armor/health system, but the new duel format would still not be a proper test of how to maintain and exploit control.
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#239   Hitman

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 11:09 PM

Quake Champions may never be Q3A but its the best were going to get from a AAA publisher in terms of a fast-paced Duel FPS and its still Quake and has plenty of time to improve. Dual system needs major work IMO.


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#240   QuietMan

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 10:22 AM

This may be a pre-calculated statement, but I think Law Breakers is a better game. 


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#241   ripharambe

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 11:56 AM

This may be a pre-calculated statement, but I think Law Breakers is a better game.

From an arena shooter standpoint?
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#242   arglactable

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 03:30 PM

Frankly, I'm at the point in my life where I'm not going to waste my time with any FPS with idiotic, one-button nuke abilities. No matter how close QC is to a real Quake game, I will never be OK with hearing "The Shadows Hide Me" in the middle of a fight. It's fucking embarrassing.

Lawbreakers is just the latest game to jump on the hero shooter trend. In a shocking turn, focusing more on gun kill in a hero shooter is NOT going over that well with the kids who play hero shooters. I highly doubt its population will grow all that much. The market is already saturated.


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#243   QuietMan

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 05:47 PM

From an arena shooter standpoint?

No, I just enjoy playing it more than QC.


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#244   Warlord Wossman

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 07:16 AM

With 3 lifes per round you have to play the survival game even more - run away try to rail. With 10 minutes and no frag limit in games like Q3A or Reflex you can rush them multiple times and drag their stack down even if you die while doing so. Once you are in a split-control stage you will get the chance to take over control yourself and maybe start a comeback. All that is not possible with 3 lifes per round as you have to care for not dying out of control way too much for my taste.


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#245   ripharambe

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 12:21 PM

Except most pro ql matches didn't even go over 3 kills.I thinks it's much more likely the stack changes are at fault especially when you consider things like the tankiest qc character still having less total stack then ql (something like qc: 350 vs ql: 400).

Characters like nyx and anarki after one rail are in a "omg fuck me" situation.
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#246   Warlord Wossman

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 05:59 PM

Combination of both most likely. And yeah QL matches did not but that's why you can and should play with cpm physics.


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